Homestuck 1-A upgrade

[HUGE PESTERQUEST SPOILERS]

"1-A Homestuck may be vague, but I'm sure future works will confirm" - Something I likely said somewhere

And the answer to this is: Pesterquest

P.S.: I'll go from the less obvious to the most obvious showing. Note that everyone basically scale to someone, so one showing can be used to support another.

Infinite Hierarchy
Here some context: In Feferi's route, you and Feferi seek guidance and advice, she then say to have a "metaphysical periscope" , who's actually someone giving her advices, who then reveal itself to be Karako (a troll you encounter in Hiveswap Friendsim), or at least, some entity (referred as "Wise One") speaking through him.

To help you with this choice, Karako explains the nature of the Multiverse to you: It actually include a hierarchy of "Meta-river"/Creators, which is stated to be infinite , with each layer being infinitely greater than the one before, with changes on the lower rivers not doing anything to the higher ones . And all of this is inside "this particular instantiation of The Story" (we'll talk about it later, to see why this little detail is important).

In case you think that Karako may not be reliable or not litteral, here's 2 point against this: 1) Feferi choose him for advice, despite litteraly being able to talk with nigh-omniscient beings , so she consider him at least as reliable as them 2) While a detail, Kakaro's aspect is Mind, which is all about understanding reality and suchlike

To support this even more, the statement "Creators all the way down" is used two times in the Homestuckverse (one by an entity with direct knowledge of Creators (The Director) and the other by someone who became aware of meta-stuff as a result of an ascencion), which is an obvious reference to the concept of "Turtles all the way down" (in case you think that it's just a coincidence, "Turtles all the way down" was already mentionned in Homestuck way prior to this).

So with this, we have an High 1-B/Low 1-A structure, which is then inside "this particular instantiation of The Story". Now let's see how the characters scale to it.

The Director
First, the new character, aka The Director.

Everything about her is kinda vague, except 3 things: She's an avatar of Pesterquest's director (Aysha), shoved Andrew Hussie in a room, is above at very least some artists/creators , call Pesterquest "her game", and matched, then overpowered Ultimate Dirk, kicking him out of this.

Everything about her is more scaling than anything, so I think she qualify pretty well as the "less obvious".

Ultimate Dirk
Scaling: He can briefly match The Director as well as Alt Calliope, and is considered as a bigger threat than Lord English.

To support others' 1-A feats: In addition to being a Platonic Concept (since the whole 1-A Plato stuff is having a revision, I'll not talk about it to make it easier), he view the Time Aspect as an illusio (Aspect are a composite of concept that exist beyond just a multiverse, since they exist in the Furhest Ring, which is an "all encompassing nothingness". Here let's just say that the Time aspect is just time to keep it simple).

Ultimate Selves (such as Dirk) are also stated to be "like a superceding bodyless and timeless persona that crosses the boundaries of paradox space ", tho it can just be considered as omnipresence.

Furhest Ring/Horrorterrors
The Furhest Ring is the "default reality", and stated to be an "all-encompassing nothingness". To support its relation to meta-stuff, Horrorterrors are seemingly able to put you "outside of canonical relevance".

Also the entity speaking through Karako may be an Horrorterror, but it's too vague for now.

Note that the Furhest Ring itself is the lowest thing in this CRT, at best it should be what contains the hierarchy, but wouldn't be an 1-A structure.

Lord English
His current justification would likely scale to the hierarchy, since it already did as a "possibly".

He scales to the Furhest Ring like he did before, and "downscale" to Alt Calliope/Ultimate Dirk in some way,as proposed by Azathoth and (accepted).

In addition to this, even his sealed was already stated to be able to affect any plane of existence.There are some other thing that could be added but they aren't necessary and more little things.

Alt Calliope
Now we start to be in the more obvious shit:

First, Alt Calliope completely destroyed and absorbed the Green Sun by turning herself into a black hole , it would possibly scale to MSPAR, who did the same in some way. She also devored and consumed Lord English up to his essence, becoming stronger than before.Her becoming a black hole also destroyed the Furhest Ring, but it's a little bonus.

Note that's everything absorbed fall into the "Candy Timeline" , which is inside the black hole.

MSPAR and Feferi: Transcendance Path
Technically the second weakest after Furhest Ring stuff, so everyone should scale to it except Horrorterrors.

Still in Feferi's route: After explaining you this hierarchical stuff, Kakaro propose you to transcend and comprehend these layers , until you reach/are into the full light of Reality. Should you accept, he'll just tap you on the head, then you go into meditation, until you one day reach this point (it's one of the endings).

It's a pretty clear 1-A feat here, and it's still while being inside "this particular instantiation of the Story"

Retcon Powers/The Blackout
I'll just link the explanation of the Blackout for this one.

Basically: Retcon Powers allow you to create paradox and times tuff that can't be done via time travel (it would just create another timeline) via directly hopping in the narrative and stuff. Here, MSPA Reader ****** up soooo much that the "narrative paradox" would be great enough to just destroy everything, turning it into "utter ruin". Even The Director and Ultimate Dirk are concerned by this, and refusing to put the mail back in the box just make the game crash, because Blackout (there's something else, but we'll see this right after).

Note that even in comparison to what happened in Epilogues, Vriska said that Retcon Powers were "the most insanely overpowered 8ullshit" , however she doesn't really know about Alt Calliope or Ultimate Dirk, but she know about Andrew Hussie (which is too inconsistent, tho I'll talk about him in the end) and Lord English, which support them being that high.

MSPA Reader
And now, the greatest showing:

Having the choice of putting the mail back in the box or refusing (the Blackout), MSPA Reader decide to do neither of them.

Instead, he go to the Green Sun, which is stated to be the "largest source of raw narrative in the multiverse" (note: in Homestuck, "universe" is used to refer to infinit multiverse, so in this context it means something like "in all of existence", just like how it was used for the Blackout), and absorb it. After starting to Become , he prevent the Blackout (which would put him above Retcon Powers?), and remove" this story" from everything (the "particular instantiation" that I kept referring to), stating to be both "bigger than this story, and also inside the story", and protecting it, becoming it's First Guardian (it's how the Visual Novel end).

So not only does MSPAR took the Story which contained this infinite hierarchy, but he also put himself at least comparable to the Blackout, and then precise to also be beyond said story.

Another thing: MSPAR should also have "1-A via the Blackout" for his previous Pesterquest Key, since he's the reason for it, and have Retcon Powers.

Conclusion/Who scale
So we basically have: First Guardian MSPA Reader>Alt Calliope>Retcon Powers>The Director>Ultimate Dirk>Lord English>Feferi/MSPA Transcendance Path>(possibly) The Furhest Ring=/>The infinite hierarchy

Andrew Hussie isn't included because of his inconsistent showing, as agreed in every god tiers revisions.

Every characters mentionned in this post scale to it, in addition to John (via Recton Powers), and possibly Ultimate Selves Rose/Dave, however these last two would need a little more feats for this.

Bonus
There's this minor Pesterquest revision which needed some attention too, so why not use this opportunity?

That seems fine to me, yeah. Although, just out of curiosity, what's the context of this statement? Given they seem to be talking about how even the lowest world in the hierarchy is still of fundamental importance to the overall structure (Something which is even compared to a key piece in the basis of an infinite jenga tower), it seems like something important that should be clarified.

For this statement, it can refer to 2 things:

-This statement , which would mean that he say that you're not stuck to your world forever (like Caliborn becoming Lord English).

-Or to this statement a bit later, which re-use the same "key" analogy. It would mean that no world should be ignored, and that influencing things on your own scale is as admirable as affecting the greater things. Since Feferi initially asked for what she could do with Alternia, it refers here to how her influence as a future Empress can affect things at her own scale (this statement also refers to the second choice, which is just to stay at your own scale/world, so it seems pretty logical).

I would say that it is more likely to be the second one.

Higher worlds litteraly depending of lower ones would also be kinda contradictory, since Karako said the exact opposite a few times before this statement.

Seems fair, then.

The ****

Currently, my only issue is "1-A vis Blackout", as I was under the impression that it was more of a chain reactions started by the Reader than anything. However, the rest I fully agree with.

But, I can't help but think that this is a bad time. Because, you know, forum migration.

This revision and what it will change is so massive that I think this needs to wait until the forum move In my opinion

Agreed. I was hoping to wait until after the forum move.

The Wright Way said:

Currently, my only issue is "1-A vis Blackout", as I was under the impression that it was more of a chain reactions started by the Reader than anything. However, the rest I fully agree with.
But, I can't help but think that this is a bad time. Because, you know, forum migration.

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It's a kind of chain reaction yeah, since retcon are like big "narrative paradox" anyway. So it's not something that can be used directly like for the others.

I asked Antvasima because I was thinking the same. He said that "important upgrades" and "minor upgrades" such as 1-A one can/should be done before, but that it may be finished only after the migration.

Who knows, maybe it'll take less than one week to be accepted (tho I don't think it would).

We do give tiers for chain reaction events (Parallax had one)

Either way i agree.

This seems to make sense to me as well, but you have to hurry up with the revision, while simultaneously handling all of the editing structure properly, so I do not have to spend time cleaning up after you.

I'll be very careful about this. Most of them will be new keys, so it wouldn't do a lot of editing problem I think.

How many agreements are needed btw? I don't really know if there's like, a specific number or something like this.

Question: if the Green Sun is 1-A, how does that affect people who can channel it's power? Do they get some 1-A hax or something?

CrimsonStarFallen said:

Question: if the Green Sun is 1-A, how does that affect people who can channel it's power? Do they get some 1-A hax or something?

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Lord English fell from 1-A to 2-A when the Green Sun disappeared, so it might be.

Becquerel also redirected Retcon Powers, as you can see in the "bonus" thread, and basically every First Guardian have his stuff. Doc Scratch already would have 1-A hax because of plot manip and Lord too.

So 1-A hax is a yes, however 1-A First Guardian (except MSPAR) seems very unlikely for now, even if I saw some theories on the subject.

Bruh moment when are we giving everyone irrelevant speed for crossing the green sun ovo

Since Ultima and I both have accepted this, and we are in a hurry, I don't think that we need a lot more agreement, but you should ask some experienced members listed in the Homestuck verse page to comment here to stay on the safe side.

I agree with this.

I already asked both Sera, Promestein, and some others knowledgeable members. I'm waiting for their input.

Btw, since new keys will be created, obvious powers (like Green Sun powers for MSPA Reader and Alt Calliope for example) would likely be added at the same time (I'll try to keep it to a minimum tho).

Okay. Thanks.

A hell ya, finally

I agree with this, obviously

Yes, this seems okay. We should probably move quickly about it too.

I don't see much to oppose, I guess

this seems to be okay

Honestly could probably already be added, several staff members (Including knowledgeble ones) and knowledgeble members agree already. Guess it's fine to wait a bit but, y'know.

This is probably enough agreement for applying the changes.

Just make sure to follow the Common Editing Mistakes instructions and to update the tier categories at the bottom of the pages, if necessary.

I honestly never thought I'd see a 1-A revision go through in only a single day, much less for a verse I liked.

I mean, I think that we still have time to discuss this a little bit more if anyone wishes to oppose it, but we should obviously not dwell to much on this subject due to the Forum Move.

I agree with these upgrades completely.

I think that the Furthest Ring as a structure seems to be Low 1-A, as it transcends and encompasses the infinite hierarchy of "rivers," yet still operates on space and time (convoluted forms of space and time, but still).

KingPin0422 said:

I agree with these upgrades completely.
I think that the Furthest Ring as a structure seems to be Low 1-A, as it transcends and encompasses the infinite hierarchy of "rivers," yet still operates on space and time (convoluted forms of space and time, but still).

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I wasn't sure at 100% about how worked Low 1-A, but it seems good to me.

Is there anything else that need to discuss tbh? Most of the knowledgeable members already agreed now, and it doesn't seems like there's a problem anywhere.

Low 1-A seems ok.

Side note: I think we should put a hold on any new Tier 1 revisions until after the forum move.

I had the same idea but I was shot down because everyone was agreeing with this.

Well, Ant said that "important revisions" were fine, so that's why I made it. However it's a bad timing yeah, even if this revision was lucky enough to be accepted in 1/2 days, creating new revisions would likely left them unfinished.

Well, we still have 10 days to finish, so I think that it seems fine to apply what has been accepted, as long as we hurry up while still trying to uphold a high editing quality.

We need to decide whether Low 1-A or 1-A is more reliable though.

Low 1-A is for the Furhest Ring/Horrorterrors, and 1-A is for everyone else if I understood correctly.

Yeah, that's it.

Furhest Ring: transcends the story hierarchy but still operates on the limits of space time

Meanwhile, ones who transcend it don't (which is why Ultimate Dirk sees the Time aspect as an illusion)

Okay then. I just wondered if Sera considers that acceptable.