Frisk's Downgrade

DatOneWeeb · Mar 24, 2020

Yep. Another downgrade for Undertale. I'm sorry.

Okay, so Frisk's 2-C is via immense determination. Which comes from barley haming Photoshop Flowey. Frisk shouldn't scale. Not only can Frisk barley harm Flowey, but the only time you can actually do good damage is when having help from the souls or when Flowey becomes powerless. In which case he isn't tier 2 anymore. Secondly, Frisk's 2-B durability comes from scaling to Asriel. In which immense determination is also used. Why should Frisk not have this durability? Not only is Frisk completely unable to harm Asriel, but Frisk gets one-shotted by a WEAKER foe in the same key. So if Frisk can hardly damage Photoshop Flowey, not harm Asriel at all, and also dies by Photoshop Flowey from a single hit...yeah this becomes an obvious outlier/being way too inconsistent. I say remove tier 2 Frisk for both ap and durability.

Planck69 · Mar 24, 2020

They also directly tank a timeline destroying attack in the battle with Asriel and create entirely new timelines with the RESET. Also, why are you using the fact that they couldn't harm Asriel as justification for downgrading their durability of all things? That just means that they have far greater resilience than raw power when immensely determined.

And regarding durability, they take direct hits from Asriel in their fights and those clearly don't one-shot. The only attack that does one-shot you when fighting Photoshop Flowey is the very last one, which is far less casual then the ones he was hitting you with earlier. Unless both of them were holding back to an uncountably infinite degree then the most likely explanation is that her durability, while obviously immensely below the full powers of Flowey and Asriel, is still somewhat comparable.

Frisk should at the very least have Low 2-C durability from surviving the Hyper Goner (which consumed the timeline). If no other feats exist for their AP then it can just go to Unknow.

DatOneWeeb · Mar 24, 2020

Er, no. Asriel scales above a 2-B. Which would mean all of his attacks are 2-B. Why would we say this attack is only Low 2-C despite Asriel being a 2-B character. That makes no sense. So no, Frisk shouldn't even be Low 2-C if we factor this in. Also as far as I'm aware, The Anomaly is the one who resets, not Frisk. If a character can survive someone else's attacks, but can't harm said person at all, that should be an issue. At least in terms of supporting evidence.

You realize why not being one-shot by Asriel has issues right? I clearly said this was outlier, due to dying from a single hit by weaker characters. Photoshop Flowey was definitely holding back, since he clearly wants you to suffer as this was his motivations when fighting you. Up until the end, several, not just one, attacks kill you. These same attacks Frisk were able to survive during the beginning. But then Flowey can just completely murder you easily.

Planck69 · Mar 24, 2020

DatOneWeeb said:
Er, no. Asriel scales above a 2-B. Which would mean all of his attacks are 2-B. Why would we say this attack is only Low 2-C despite Asriel being a 2-B character. That makes no sense. So no, Frisk shouldn't even be Low 2-C if we factor this in. Also as far as I'm aware, The Anomaly is the one who resets, not Frisk. If a character can survive someone else's attacks, but can't harm said person at all, that should be an issue. At least in terms of supporting evidence.
You realize why not being one-shot by Asriel has issues right? I clearly said this was outlier, due to dying from a single hit by weaker characters. Photoshop Flowey was definitely holding back, since he clearly wants you to suffer as this was his motivations when fighting you. Up until the end, several, not just one, attacks kill you. These same attacks Frisk were able to survive during the beginning. But then Flowey can just completely murder you easily.

.....You do realize that his base form is getting downgraded to Low 2-C right? Same for Photshop Flowey. The attack is Low 2-C because it explicitly destroys the timeline you're fighting i. A planet level character can still opt to destroy the moon. A character that survives the attack is obviously at the very least moon level. And stone-walls are a thing on the wiki, just see Steven Universe.

It's still a durability feat for Frisk. Photoshop Flowey one-shotting her just means that he scales above the energy needed to destroy a timeline not that he directly scales to Asriel (who toys with you just as much during the fight with him).

Lord_JJJ · Mar 24, 2020

I agree that the AP should be downgrade to unknown

But as for durability, I do not agree. Frisk has a greater level of determination when he fight Asrial than when he fight Flowey, I think Frisk needs more keys. He needs a key with a immense level of determination for each run, because his tier varies between them.

DatOneWeeb · Mar 24, 2020

If Asriel is getting downgraded, my point doesn't change due to Photoshop Flowey also going Low 2-C. Frisk still getting one-shotted by a lesser Low 2-C makes this inconsistent. Saying that one Asriel attack is only Low 2-C still falls under the issues that his other attacks still fall under the same case.

When did I even say Flowey scales to Asriel? Asriel does not toy around with you, I need proof on that. And why are we going to cherrypick when Asriel outright uses his full power towards the end of the fight? In that form he's staying 2-B, which means we shouldn't just say "well Frisk can scale to durability for Asriel's weaker form, but not his true form." That's cherrypicking. You cannot just scale Frisk to Low 2-C by Asriel when they also survived hits from his 2-B form. There are several issues here. And saying the output Flowey's attacks were above only one timeline is still kinda bullshit as so far, he's baseline.

Eden_Warlock99 · Mar 24, 2020

I agree with The AP downgrade, he can't one-shot Omega Flowey even when his DEF turns 0

The Frisk that fights Asriel is far above the Frisk that fought Omega Flowey, so no

Theuser789 · Mar 24, 2020

Asriel does toy with you, he literaly says so before using Hyper-Goner

Anyways agree with the AP removal but not dura, Frisk had more determination when fighting Asriel, reason why Flowey could save but Asriel couldn't, Frisk straight up survives Asriel big raibow laser at point blank

Antvasima · Mar 25, 2020

You should ask the staff members listed in the Undertale verse page to comment here.

Eficiente · Mar 25, 2020

There is something on Asriel that has been bothering me for years. When checking other characters' stats what's shown is not how hard they are hitting you, but how powerful the characters are, like Toriel being on the same level as Asgore - and this is not even something that needs examples as it makes perfect sense on its own. Asriel's first key has no reason to be exaggeratedly above P.Flowey, especially when his final attack only destroys a timeline, Frisk's just unable to hit him due to a lack of either AP or speed, which is all base Asriel has in his favor.

That said I too disagree with the downgrade for the same reasons others said above. If anything this should be added to Frisk's AP "Potentially higher during their fight with Full Power Asriel as their Determination was enough to take hits from him, although Determination gives them a better durability than AP".

The_King_of_Prudence · Mar 25, 2020

If most of the power of the low 2-C attack that Frisk tanked was spent destroying the timeline, that could explain them surviving that, and not any others.

Eficiente · Mar 25, 2020

I'm pretty sure Frisk can survive that from the center with enough health.

Planck69 · Mar 25, 2020

Eficiente said:
I'm pretty sure Frisk can survive that from the center with enough health.

She does, though she goes from 20 HP to 1.

Eficiente · Mar 25, 2020

Still a Low 2-C feat, "she" also still scales to being able to take Full Powa Asriel's attacks.

Planck69 · Mar 25, 2020

Eficiente said:
Still a Low 2-C feat, "she" also still scales to being able to take Full Powa Asriel's attacks.

Oh I know, I was agreeing with you. Throwing away one of the most important fights in the game as an outlier is pretty ridiculous. At best her AP goes to Unknown but her durability goes to Low 2-C.

Frisk's Downgrade

DatOneWeeb

Planck69

DatOneWeeb

Planck69

Lord_JJJ

DatOneWeeb

Eden_Warlock99

Theuser789

Antvasima

Maintenance worker

Eficiente

The_King_of_Prudence

Eficiente

Planck69

Eficiente

Planck69

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