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Massive Scott Pilgrim Upgrades?

I once did this calc before, your calc looks much better than mine. Good job. I support this upgrade.
 
Makes sense to me. If he can take that kind of impact (and your math seems to be accurate), it makes sense to consider an upgrade.
 
The calc seems fine and as long as it isn't an outlier, it should be accepted.
 
@Thebluedash As a calculation group member, please mention your support of this in the blog post itself.
 
Anyway, if the calculation is accepted, you can obviously scale the characters accordingly.
 
Looks completely legit. Been a little while since I've read through the whole series, but it would without a doubt scale to guys like Gideon, who are vastly superior to Todd.
 
Actually, wait, Todd Ingram's page lists him as Relativistic+ for having gone to the moon in an extremely short timeframe, yet as far as I can tell no such timeframe is implied. Shouldn't that be removed?
 
Probably? It could probably be removed then if there's nothing to scale him by that....
 
Alright just a few things.

1. That image is taken from the movie, not the comic book. As I've said before, due to lack of feats in the comics, taking feats from other media should be ok, but this is a feat that was done in the comics anyway, so using the film version over the comic version would be a direct contradiction against the series' canon.

2. Someone scaled Mr Chau to Todd Ingram just recently. No idea why this is. There's nothing to suggest he's far superior to Roxie and certainly not Todd. If no one offers a good explanation I should probably change this back.

3. Technically yes, Todd should have traveled to the moon in a very short timespan as when he punhced a hole in the moon, he was on a date with Ramona. I don't think she would have waited several minutes for him to travel to the moon. And both the comic and movie portray it as a sudden, unexpected event. Also don't know where the MHS+ thing came from.

4. In terms of raw AP, Durabilty and Speed there's also not much to suggest Gideon is superior to Todd. The reason Gideon is seen as the leader of the evil exes and not Todd is because of his backstory (he has a closer relationship to Ramona than anyone else), his cunning (which exceeds the likes of someone dumb like Todd), and his Glow and Subspace abilties (which are pretty powerful hax that can even bypass AP, Durability etc.). In terms of general AP, Durability and Speed Gideon would probably be closer to Scott's level than Todd's, but I'd rather not make assumptions and give him concrete rankings.
 
IIRC, Scott slightly bloodied Todd when he whacked him with a guitar, as well as took multiple hits from him, so the difference in AP and durability between the two is unlikely to be very high.

Gideon initially stomped Scott pretty easily, ripped the Power of Love from his chest, then proceeded to kill him. He should definitely scale, and is definitely treated as a "final boss" type of character for more than just his cunning and the Glow.

Edit: Scott staggering and slightly bloodying Todd by hitting him with a guitar.
 
I looked back on the comic. The "blood" is very hard to make out and it only appears in one panel, the later panels show no visible blood or scar. In fact, in the previous panel it looks like sweat drops instead so the "blood" could just be sweat drops that were colored wrong in one panel. There's also the fact Todd was caught off guard and wasn't in his Vegan form when it happened. Either way I honestly doubt Scott is on Todd's level whatsover, he's constantly being thrown around like it's nothing and they make it pretty clear Todd is holding back.

And just because Gideon is "the final boss", it doesn't mean he's the physically strongest. Roxie is fought after Todd and yet she's far weaker than him. The Katayanagi twins are fought after nearly all the other exes and yet they're physically weaker than most of them. Most of Gideon's feats are from his Glow and Subspace abilities (hax essentialy) anyway. He's certainly above Scott's stats as he stomps him pretty easily the first time, but that's as far as his non-hax showings go.
 
Todd wipes the blood from his mouth, which is an incredibly common action/trope before or during a big fight scene. I don't think he'd be wiping sweat from his mouth, nor that the sweat would be colored wrong. Scott being thrown around by Todd but not outright murdered in a single blow is a pretty solid showing of his durability, which would need to be at least somewhat close for him to even last a femtosecond against Todd. Todd's power also specifically comes from being a vegan, so I significantly doubt he has to activate something to radically boost his power and durability as opposed to just getting more serious, which, again, is extremely unlikely to make an entire tier difference. I'm also pretty sure Scott tanks Todd releasing his power and obliterating Honest Ed's while standing directly next to him, so there's that.

Again, just being the final boss isn't what should make Gideon the strongest. Todd beat the crap out of a relatively inexperienced Scott in book 3. Gideon forcefully made a much more experienced and powerful Scott level down, stole the power of love, and then casually murdered him in book 6. I think it's safe to say he should scale.
 
Todd is portrayed as above Scott in every way. He treats Scott like a joke. He even waits for Scott to recover everytime he is beaten down just to torture him again. It's obvious killing Scott isn't his intention, he's holding back just to throw him around. Todd is pretty much what Beerus was in Battle of Gods.

Scott making him bleed seems like an outlier if anything or it could be explained by not being in his vegan form. After all, if Todd doesn't need to be in his Vegan form to be that powerful why would he bother transforming at all. The Vegan form is even a reference to Super Saiyan forms and how they make you super powerful. The video game (which stays very closely to the comics more than the movie) even goes out of its way to show that Todd can't be harmed unless the Vegan Police take his powers away first (something which no other fight has).

It wouldn't make sense for Scott to fight Wall/Building level enemies like Matthew and Lucas and move to Continent+ level in a matter of weeks anyway. Otherwise Scott would have flattened them effortlessly.

I don't see how one panel of a character wiping blood which contradicts the rest of the volume and by extension the two volumes prior should change a verse that much.
 
Plus, may I remind you that Ramona scales to Roxie who scales to Scott and Ramona was suprised at how powerful Todd was with the moon feat. She wouldn't be that suprised if he was similar to her level.

Also Envy Adams > Ramona in scaling and Envy is portrayed as far weaker than Todd too, being thrown around like it's nothing.
 
Again, Todd doesn't need to be an entire tier above Scott to treat him like a joke. Also, keep in mind that the vast, vast majority of times Todd messes around with Scott is via using stuff like his telekinesis. This prevents Scott from even hitting him, most of the time. When we see Scott actually get a good hit in, it visibly staggers him and causes him to bleed slightly. This does not contradict other showings, since it's literally one of the only times Scott even makes contact with Todd.
 
Can somebody please just link the fight because if Todd wasn't in Vegan form/didn't have Vegan powers by the time Scott hit him then he most definitely doesn't scale.
 
LordXcano said:
Can somebody please just link the fight because if Todd wasn't in Vegan form/didn't have Vegan powers by the time Scott hit him then he most definitely doesn't scale.
Click to expand...
He had vegan powers. He didn't lose them until the vegan police showed up and zapped him, immediately after which he was killed. There's no "vegan form". It's just how Todd looks when using powers like his tk.
 
Okay so since the fight goes on-and-off all throughout the entirety of the third book, here are the relevant scans, all from the color version.

The first time Scott tries to punch Todd. As you can see, Scott does not make contact, but Todd very clearly feels the need to dodge, which I find it extremely unlikely he would do if he was confident Scott couldn't hurt him, at all.

The second time. Again, Todd dodges before tossing Scott away with his powers instead of just using brute force.

The first time Scott actually lands a hit on Todd, who still has his vegan powers. Todd is obviously staggered and, as can be seen clearly in the colored version, that is indeed blood he's wiping from his lip. This does not contradict any other showings, as I have linked, every other time Scott tried to hit Todd, Todd would dodge.

Without his vegan powers, Scott one-shots Todd by headbutting him.

Now as for why Gideon should scale to Todd, this is what Gideon does to a stronger, more experienced Scott in a straight-up brawl and without using his powers. After toying with Scott, he proceeds to pummel him, forcefully rip the Power of Love from his chest, offer to make Scott the newest member of the League, and then immediately murder him when he refuses.

Again, remember that this is a much higher level Scott who has gotten his shit together, made peace and merged with Negascott, and was overall far more experienced than he was when he fought Todd. Gideon still fodderized him, and it took both Ramona wielding the Power of Love and Scott wielding the Power of Understanding to finally beat him.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Okay so since the fight goes on-and-off all throughout the entirety of the third book, here are the relevant scans, all from the color version.
The first time Scott tries to punch Todd. As you can see, Scott does not make contact, but Todd very clearly feels the need to dodge, which I find it extremely unlikely he would do if he was confident Scott couldn't hurt him, at all.
Click to expand...
Dodge

So Beerus would of been hurt by these punches? Wew Universal Tien. Logic doesn't work.
 
Thebluedash said:
Dodge

So Beerus would of been hurt by these punches? Logic doesn't work.
Click to expand...
Compare Beerus' expression to people he's leagues above trying to hit him to Todd's reaction to Scott nearly hitting him. Both times, he's clearly surprised, and when he IS finally hit, he takes damage. Beerus is obscenely bored and never even comes close to being harmed by these characters.
 
I think that Azathoth seems to make sense.
 
Also, as for Todd's speed and anyone who scales to him, here are the relevant panels in which he jumps to the moon. It's important to note that while he does this twice, this is the only one that happens in real time, as the other is shown through a more storybook-esque flashback.

Here, Todd tells Ramona to look up and then instantly disappears. He then punches a hole in the moon, and Ramona can be seen looking horrified. While we do not get an exact timeframe, it seems to be implied that no more than a few seconds have passed, as Todd appeared to vanish instantly and I don't think Ramona would have just stared at the sky for extended periods of time.

It might also be important to take note of the fact that while young Ramona was horrified of what Todd did to the moon, Scott is completely unaffected by the story, despite knowing full well he has to fight Todd and that Todd will try to kill him. This makes sense since, as I've shown before, every time Todd ragdolled Scott, he was specifically using his psychic powers. When Scott actually gets a good hit in, it does visible damage, further cementing that the two aren't very far apart, physically.
 
I looked back at the comic and not ONCE does Todd use any of his Vegan powers while outside of his Vegan form. The most he does is dodge Scott Pilgrim's attacks and then turn into his Vegan form in order to attack him. Outside his Vegan form, Todd has bleed by Scott hitting him and showed visible pain when Envy kneed his crotch (probably there for the comedy but it still counts). In his Vegan form his showing are far more impressive, above all the other characters. I mentioned how the Vegan form is a direct reference to the Super Saiyan form from DBZ and Kaneda psychic powers from Akira(which go stronger as he gets deeper into them). Scott Pilgrim takes it's pop cultural references pretty literal; enemies turn into actual currency when they die, the subspace works very similar to the subspace from Super Marion Bros 2 etc.

The video game even makes it impossible to damage Todd while is his Vegan form, but possible when he's outside it which happens briefly before the actual fight.

And I've stated before, the past enemies Scott fought only really showed Building feats at best and Scott was knocked out by one of them when he was caught off guard (Lucas Lee).

Plus, you have to consider that Scott's past memories are purposefully exagerated to make him seem cooler/more powerful than he actually is. This is actually a plot point as it's explained in Vol. 6 that these fake, exagerated memories were planted in Scott's mind by Gideon. In these past memories Scott's feats are nowhere even close to Continent level. At most he kicks a guy REALLY far away (which turns out was just him sucker punching someone in reality). If Scott's exagerated memories are him doing something far below Continent level, how do you expect his real feats to be that powerful.
 
Keep in mind I was the one who single-handedly created the Scott Pilgrim verse page and nearly all the profiles so I'm not by any means trying to low-ball the franchise. I just find scaling half the characters to Todd an unbelievable stretch for multiple reasons.

Also, maybe a bit unrealistic, but there's a comic store in my city who personally know Bryan Lee O'Malley. He comes for comic book signings every few years. I've met him before to get my books signed. Next time he's in town I could ask him about scaling Todd and Scott to get a WOG answer to this.
 
Again, there is no defined "vegan mode". Todd's eyes glow and his hair stands up when he uses his psychic powers, and as shown by the first time he does this, he combs his hair down immediately after throwing Scott. It's not a form he stays in. Just a visual effect that comes from using his psychic powers. He does not miraculously become weaker when not using his powers.

Also, even if we were to assume he is somehow drastically less durable when not using his psychic abilities, he wasn't even using them either time he punched a hole in the moon, so that's completely irrelevant. Both times, he simply jumps to the moon and punches a hole in it. No psychic powers involved.
 
I still agree with Azathoth.
 
The Vegan form is treated like an actual form. It's a different look he takes when he actually uses his powers and does impressive stuff. Outside of it, he does absolutely nothing and gets hurt by characters with weaker showings. That's how a super form works. Even in the moon punch event we couldn't see his eyes to determine whether or not he was in it. It cuts from him pointing upwards to him in the sky with his back turned to the reader.

I don't see how "psychic powers" is relevant to this. His flight and super strength are still part of his vegan form. The fact he combs his hair isn't relevant either.

And as I've said before:

- The video game supports this (Todd can ALWAYS be harmed outside of his form, but NEVER while using it).

- The enemies Scott fought weeks before Todd were building level at best and one of them managed to knock Scott out. What would I even rank them if I upgraded the other characters?

- The comics take pop cultural references (super saiyan forms/chi/extra lives) quite literally.

Boy this is basically a repeat of the argument we had about Large Island level Papyrus.
 
Ok, I found this on Bryan Lee O'Malley's tumblr account as part of a Q and A.

Q: How come Todd Ingram didn't kill Scott in the beginning of volume 3? If he can punch a hole in the moon, couldn't he have finished off Scott the moment they met? At least Matthew Patel made the effort to go all-out in their first meeting.

A: Matthew went all-out because he sucks. Todd would never go all-out. If he went all-out, he wouldn't be Todd. Todd is a smarmy jerk who wants to toy with Scott and feel cool and superior without trying. That's the point of Todd.

Notice how he says Todd never goes all-out on Scott and doesn't correct the implication that if Todd can punch a hole in the moon, he can easily kill Scott.

Link: http://radiomaru.tumblr.com/page/35 (It's a little far down)
 
"How come Todd Ingram didn't kill Scott in the beginning of volume 3? If he can punch a hole in the moon, couldn't he have finished off Scott the moment they met?"

This is attempting to make use of authorial intent to limit a character's strength which generally doesn't fly around here. If you asked most content creators what they thought of the stats on this site: say, Mario being a galaxy-buster: they'd probably laugh at you and tell you that it's silly, as they never intended for such to be the case.

The fact remains that Scott successfully not only (repeatedly) damaged, but drew blood from Todd, meaning he to some degree or another has parity with his physicality: one cannot, after all, "hold back" their durability, and even if they could somehow anyone as reasonably intelligent as Todd would under no notable circumstances do so. A feat remains a feat.

If anything, Scott getting the Power of Love is a good mark in the timeframe of the series demonstrating around when Scott gets his act together and is consistently Todd level and upwards.

To answer the whole "it doesn't make sense for him to jump that high in so short a time", A: This happens all the time in fiction, it makes no more sense there yet it's still considered perfectly valid, and B: It especially makes sense in a world that runs on video game/cartoon logic, in which people do, well, precisely that: achieve an immense increase in strength within a short time period.

P.S. : I know I can't really stop you from doing so, but a personal request? Please don't drag O'Malley into answering Versus Debate questions if possible, I respect the man too much to make him put up with debating what should be a fairly ordinary verse to evaluate. I mean, look at how frustrated Kamiya seems to have gotten since the whole Dante vs Bayo thing.

Content creators have a fairly straight-forward mindset when it comes to their projects and that helps stimulate quality story-telling, we shouldn't try to force them out of it for what ultimately boils down to "Which fictional character can, in my opinion, kick which other fictional character's ass."
 
I brought that up to show that it was the author's intent that Scott isn't on the same level as someone who can punch holes on the moon.

And as I've said before, Todd ONLY got hurt outside of his Vegan form. While using it, he is above everyone else at that point.

Let's lay this out.

Outside of form:

- Dodges Scott's attacks with mild difficulty (usually almost off-guard)

- Bleeds when Scott whacks him while off-guard. (this happened once, not multiple times as the Perpetual claims).

- Gets hurt when Envy knees his crotch (also off-guard).

Inside of form:

- Shows telekinesis, telepathy (movie only), flight, incredible flight speed etc.

- Trashes Scott around like it's nothing while holding back (as I've pointed out, confirmed by the author).

- Punches holes in the moon.

- Automatically immune to anything you do in the video game, unless the Vegan Police come OR he turns his vegan form off briefly. I mean, even the video game developers knew this. They made it so you could only harm him once he returned to his normal form.

Yes the power of Love is a huge upgrade for Scott but that's because it is an actual power up he obtains and is related to Scott admitting he loves Ramona (a huge step in character progression) and not because a few weeks went by.

Also, it's a very common thing in fiction for telekinetic characters to use their telekinesis as their strength/durabilty. Todd never uses his physical strength/durabilty for anything, so he's likely to use his telekinesis to survive the moon punch but since he wasn't using it when Scott whacked him (he was off-guard), he bled. This is supported in the video game where Todd uses a telekinetic barrier to block Scott's attacks.

It makes perfect sense for Todd to limit his durability. As O'Malley pointed out, he is cocky and provocative against far weaker opponents and he isn't "intelligent" as the Perpetual claims, his intelligence is very inconsistent.

I understand the problem of bringing Mr O'Malley into this but if the question is simply to do with the difference between Todd inside and outside his Vegan form, I don't see the problem with this. I'd just be a concrete confirmation on the form's nature.

I guess we could put this down to a vote.
 
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