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About Celestialsapiens Existence Erasure

Doorinmyhouse said:
that is right, Zeno used existance erausre to destroy the 12 universes in Trunks' timeline, yet Whis was still perfectly capable of going back in time to before Zeno destroyed it. Zeno's existance erasure is still treated as 2-C despite him not destroying all of the time axis.
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That quiet clearly explained by saying that a different timeline is made, such as when Beerus erased Zamasu, there was a timeline where he never erased the dude.
 
That just sounds like Ben ten working differently to me, honestly. I'm not sure if a higher tier is given for destroying all of space but not time.
 
@Ricsi-viragosi wrong, Whis didnt go to a new timeline , he went back in time to Trunks' timeline to before Zeno erased it. He makes that clear by outright saying it. a new timeline is only created by travelling back in time and changing some events. Beerus simply warns Whis that if he does go back in time with Trunks and Mai and change some events a new timeline will be created, not that a new timeline was created and Whis will take Trunks and Mai there.
 
2-C | Low Multiverse level: Characters who can create and/or destroy small multiverses which can be comprised of a number of isolated space-time continua ranging anywhere from two to a thousand, or equivalents

The Anihilaarg fits this definition if we take the Null Void and Ledgerdomain into account. Also from my perspective it sounds like Ben 10 is the only (main-stream) verse where it is "properly" defined. Give me one verse where every single time a time travel episode takes place they use the pre-retcon design of something in the past and you can literally see when a timeline branched off by the design of said object and that without screwing up once I think. (said object is a Mr. Smoothy logo)
 
@Ricsi-viragosi people already tried to downgrade Zeno for not destroying all of time in this thread and other treads. But due to the main universe having several seperate space-time continuums such as ROSAT and dimensional walls seperating the differnet realms, it was concluded that it didnt matter. Same thing applies to Ben 10, the Null Void and Ledgerdomain are part of the main universe and were also destroyed by the Anihilaargh.
 
Wait Shadow did that, stuff is getting waaay too meta for me now. I think we'll probably need a site-wide revision to fix this but since the forum move is coming up let's not do that just yet. (Btw this problem would have probably never happened if Sera's revisions would have gone through most likely)
 
I dont see a point with continueing this thread, the only argument ProfessorKukui has is that Servantis might not have been talking about Alien X ( his point about Servantis overhyping Alien X's universal recreation is easily debunked by the fact Servantis made that statement 5 years before it happened) which does not matter. Jiren gets scaled to Infinite Zamasu and Beerus, due to him being stated to be the most powerful opponent Goku has faced + being stated to be at least as powerful as a God of Destruction. The Grand Priest gets scaled to Whis who is > Beerus, due to Whis stating that the Grand Priest is stronger than him. This is the most basic power scaling.

This is absolutely no different for Alien X, Alien X is repeatedly stated to be the most powerful alien in the Omnitrix, the universe and the universe's greatest source of energy, both by reliable characters and by WOG. So even if ProfessorKukui is right, even if Servantis wasnt talking about Alien X, he would still scale to whatever alien Servantis was talking about.
 
No, we aren't closing this thread when there are others besides me who clearly express opposing opinions your side. Anyway:

>the only argument ProfessorKukui has is that Servantis might not have been talking about Alien X ( his point about Servantis overhyping Alien X's universal recreation is easily debunked by the fact Servantis made that statement 5 years before it happened)

No, it doesn't debunk me. It may take away part of my argument, but the actual point here still stands. Servantis is looking at someone who is so astronomically superior to anything he has ever experienced and is overhyping their power. Fiction is greatly common with this standard of fodder characters stating something about the strength of a far superior being that isn't meant to be taken literally. Yes, Servantis may be incredibly intelligent, but that again does not make what he says infallible.

>Jiren gets scaled to Infinite Zamasu and Beerus, due to him being stated to be the most powerful opponent Goku has faced + being stated to be at least as powerful as a God of Destruction. The Grand Priest gets scaled to Whis who is > Beerus, due to Whis stating that the Grand Priest is stronger than him. This is the most basic power scaling.

And another false equivalancy. Jiren has the actual feats to show he's the strongest character Goku ever faced at that point. Starting with the fact that he's already superior to Infinite Zamasu, and beings who know exactly how strong the latter is say the former has stronger power than anything ever previously faced before. The Grand Priest is even more supported by the fact that he's superior to the Angels.

> Alien X is repeatedly stated to be the most powerful alien in the Omnitrix

No ones denied this though.

>the universe and the universe's greatest source of energy, both by reliable characters and by WOG.

Already talked about this in another thread, and you know full well what was argued.

>So even if ProfessorKukui is right, even if Servantis wasnt talking about Alien X, he would still scale to whatever alien Servantis was talking about.

No, I said this above already. That alien would get the ability and becomes scaled to nothing. You can't scale anything and everything you want to a god tier simply because they are more powerful. Especially when it comes to haxes. Being a god tier alone doesn't warrant that, and you seem to have this conception that no other alien can't have something better than Alien X.
 
Isn't the entire point of scaling Alien X above the Chrono Navigator because he has the best hax, I'm pretty sure you agreed with that? So if now Alien Y has better hax than the CN, then we can just scale Alien X above Alien Y instead?
 
Btw Ricsi mentioned the statement being unreliable because it references AP instead of hax, do you agree with that? Since you previously had no problem with giving Alien Y EE.
 
>No, we aren't closing this thread when there are others besides me who clearly express opposing opinions your side. Anyway:

Code: 
no one asked your permission anyway
>No, I said this above already. That alien would get the ability and becomes scaled to nothing/Especially when it comes to haxes.

Yes, it does If your argument about servantis statement refering to an other Alien is true (which is bullshit anyway) than the Alien y would get EE on Multiversal scale and Alien x scale above him due for him having the greatest AP and hax and abilityes in the series.

And this only if we agree with you about servantis statement refering to an other Alien which is false anyway Servantis was like : If ben has a celestialsapien forme than he can wish everything out of existence if Ben has a celestialsapien forme in the watch
 
Bad stop it, like Firestorm said no need to be rude, as long as Ricsi disagrees we can't close this thread, this thread also won't be closed if Kukui changes up his arguments.
 
Eh, not really sure.

I threw out my reason, but I am not knowledgable on the verse enough to tell. My opinion alone won't keep this from getting closed.

And you're right in that there is no need to be rude.
 
Greenshifter said:
Bad stop it, like Firestorm said no need to be rude, as long as Ricsi disagrees we can't close this thread, this thread also won't be closed if Kukui changes up his arguments.
Click to expand...
he didn't change his arguments at all they are all the same
 
>Yes, Servantis may be incredibly intelligent, but that again does not make what he says infallible.

You have no proof his words are unreliable, just because some fodders in fiction are unreliable due to overhyping, doesnt mean everyone is. This is a proof by example fallacy. How exactly do you know Servantis has never met the alien he is talking about?

King Boo's portals being capable of destroying the universe is accepted despite being made by Elvin Gadd who is fodder. The Time Baby and Stanford Pines are fodder , yet we still use their statements about Bill Cipher being capable of destroying the universe. GT Elder Kaioshin's statement is used to rate Omega Shenron as universal, even though Elder Kai is fodder. Fodder Gowasu statement about infinite Zamasu becoming one with the universe is accepted.

>And another false equivalancy. Jiren has the actual feats to show he's the strongest character Goku ever faced at that point.

Jiren is rated 2-C solely due to statements and not because he has a 2-C feat. The Grand Priest has never demonstrated to be superior to the angels, he is featless, he too also relies solely on statements. Way to miss my point by repeating the same thing I said.

> 'No, I said this above already. That alien would get the ability and becomes scaled to nothing. You can't scale anything and everything you want to a god tier simply because they are more powerful.

Ok, then you cant scale Jiren to infinite Zamasu simply because he is stated to be stronger than him, nor can you scale Grand Priest to Whis simply because he is stated to be more powerful. You seem to have forgotten that you yourself made a thread where you argued that Alien X being stated to be the most powerful in the universe refers to his hax not raw power, so obviously his hax is at least as great as the 2nd most powerful alien in the omnitrix. Occam's razor and common sense after all.
 
Kevin: [ Groans ] I don't get it. He's saved the universe at least a dozen times.

Servantis: And destroyed it! All because you, agent Levin, never completed your mission to neutralize him years ago.

Now this is what I am wondering, when did Ben destroy the universe? Is it the Anihilaarg that Servantis is referencing?
 
Greenshifter said:
Kevin: [ Groans ] I don't get it. He's saved the universe at least a dozen times.
Servantis: And destroyed it! All because you, agent Levin, never completed your mission to neutralize him years ago.

Now this is what I am wondering, when did Ben destroy the universe?
Click to expand...
Him letting the Anihilaarg destroy the original one instead of restoring it
 
Doorinmyhouse said:
@Ricsi-viragosi people already tried to downgrade Zeno for not destroying all of time in this thread and other treads. But due to the main universe having several seperate space-time continuums such as ROSAT and dimensional walls seperating the differnet realms, it was concluded that it didnt matter. Same thing applies to Ben 10, the Null Void and Ledgerdomain are part of the main universe and were also destroyed by the Anihilaargh.
Click to expand...
This is incorrect. We do not treat the realms in Universe 7 as being separate space-times. Multiple attempts at upgrading it to 2-C have been rejected.
 
Greenshifter said:
Isn't the entire point of scaling Alien X above the Chrono Navigator because he has the best hax, I'm pretty sure you agreed with that? So if now Alien Y has better hax than the CN, then we can just scale Alien X above Alien Y instead?
Click to expand...
Well that was before I argued nothing should scale to the Chrono Navigator in general because of it not being a flat out 2-B weapon. Before that part of the argument came up, I was totally in favor of only scaling Alien X's hax instead of his AP. But people pivoted and started arguing the Navigator uses hax just so they'd find a way to re-scale Alien X back to 2-B.

As for the "Alien Y" thing, hax scaling isn't the same as AP. Even though Alien X would be stronger than the Alien Y, he needs to have the actual ability to upscale from it. When it comes to hax, you have to share the same hax as the weaker being in order to upscale from it.

Thats like saying if a fodder's Spatial Manipulation is 2-A for warping an infinite Multiverse, and someone stronger comes along but doesnt have spatial manipulation themselves, they'd still be 2-A.
 
why would it matter whether Alien X has EE or not, if an alien's AP is 2-B with EE, then the only way for Alien X to be more powerful and have a greater source of energy than it, is if he was at least 2-B, whether it's through the same hax or not is completely irrelevant. you cant ever be considered more powerful than someone 2-B without being at least 2-B, that's just common sense. Also not seeing anywhere on the sites rules that you cant scale the AP of one hax to another hax, if the former's hax is stated to be more powerful than the latter.

Example is Jiren again, who is rated as 2-C for being more powerful than Zamasu. Zamasu is 2-C solely for becoming one with the universe and becoming justice and order itself. This is very obvioulsy hax, he is even listed to have reality warping, Higher dimensional existance and other hax by becoming infinte zamasu . Jiren has never shown to become non-corporeal or become one with the universe, or shown any of Zamasu' hax yet he scales to Zamasu's AP nonetheless.

'This is of course ignoring the fact that Servantis was talking about Alien X, and not some other unknown alien.

The Chrono Navigator making a rip in spacetime, resulting in timelines crossing over + being capable of destroying all of time and causality itself if not closed is as hax as hax comes. Literally everything about it is hax. We werent trying to find a way to anything. And yes the Chrono Navigator does scale to itself, for the exact same reason why Bill Cipher is 2-C, by making a portal that could destroy the universe if not closed. They have virtually the exact same feat with Bill having it on a lower scale than the Navigator.
 
>why would it matter whether Alien X has EE or not, if an alien's AP is 2-B with EE

And im going to stop you right here because this is wrong. Existence Erasure is a hax ability, not attack potency. Like I said before, hax scaling is not the same thing as typically scaling one characters AP to another characters AP. When it comes to hax, not only does a character need to have better potency than another character's hax, but they need the actual hax ability itself in order to scale.

You can't scale a character to another character's hax just because the former is stronger than the latter. The former needs the hax in order to scale above the other's hax.

>then the only way for Alien X to be more powerful and have a greater source of energy than it, is if he was at least 2-B

No, he wouldn't. Again, your still treating existence erasure here as actual attack potency when thats not how this works.

>you cant ever be considered more powerful than someone 2-B without being at least 2-B, that's just common sense.

Yes but the issue here is that the character with the hax isn't actually 2-B. The hax ability specifically is of that level. Not the user. There's a reason why haxes do not scale to a characters individual statistics.

>Also not seeing anywhere on the sites rules that you cant scale the AP of one hax to another hax, if the former's hax is stated to be more powerful than the latter.

Your actually right on this point. You can scale hax to another characters hax. The problem is if you don't have the hax, then there's nothing to scale to. Refer back to my 2-A example. Character A uses 2-A spatial manipulation to warp an infinite multiverse, thus making their spatial hax 2-A. Then Character B comes along and defeats Character A, thus making Character B stronger than Character A.

However, Character B doesn't have spatial manipulation. That means, while he's physically stronger than Character A, he doesn't become 2-A because he doesnt use spatial hax to overcome Character A's 2-A spatial hax.

>Example is Jiren again, who is rated as 2-C for being more powerful than Zamasu. Zamasu is 2-C solely for becoming one with the universe and becoming justice and order itself. This is very obvioulsy hax

Uh, no. Becoming an entire space-time continuum is absolutely not just hax. It's flat out attack potency since your entire existence becomes one with space and time, can effect space-time and now your level of power is on the level of a whole space-time continuum. Making it Low 2-C power.

>he is even listed to have reality warping, Higher dimensional existance and other hax by becoming infinte zamasu . Jiren has never shown to become non-corporeal or become one with the universe, or shown any of Zamasu' hax yet he scales to Zamasu's AP nonetheless.

Because Jiren surpassed the level of power Infinite Zamasu obtained by becoming one with the universes space and time, which is Low 2-C. The feat does give him more haxes, but thats because he's literally becoming a universe, which are just extra additions to his new level of power. Effecting space-time with your strength is a clear indication that is has reached tier 2 attack potency. Zamasu would've even become 2-C had he finished becoming one with everything before Zeno erased him.

>And yes the Chrono Navigator does scale to itself, for the exact same reason why Bill Cipher is 2-C, by making a portal that could destroy the universe if not closed. They have virtually the exact same feat with Bill having it on a lower scale than the Navigator.

False equivalance again, and context is being flat out ignored to make them seem the same when they aren't. In Bills case, his Low 2-C feat scales to him because Bill was going to destroy the very fabric of existence with his dimensional rip. But what separates Bill from the navigator is that Bills feat is an actual Low 2-C explosion as represented from Time Baby. It being an explosion proves there's actual Low 2-C power behind it and isn't just some hax ability. Not only that, Bill would have survived existence being destroyed, thus the feat scales to his durability as well.

The Navigator wasn't doing anything remotely close to the level of destruction Paradox said it would, not immediately or otherwise. Even when Eon intentfully tries using it to destroy existence, nothing gets destroyed. Even the timelines anchored together by the Navigator remain perfectly fine from its use. That easily proves it's not able to use 2-B power in the instance of an actual attack. Thus, it doesn't scale to its feat.

You also forgot to conveniently mention the fact that Bill's stats dont scale to Low 2-C outside of his attack potency and durability. Because it's just a dimensional rip, Bill's striking strength and lifting strength doesn't scale to Low 2-C, meaning he's physically not a Low 2-C being.
 
Greenshifter said:
@Kukui So you have no problem with upscaling Alien X from 2-B EE as long as he has EE?
Click to expand...
Outside of it arguably being an outlier, pretty much. The issue is this is the statement is the only reason why Alien X has EE in the first place. Had he had other things that justified him having the ability, it would be fine.
 
You conveniently mention the fact that Bill's stats dont scale to Low 2-C outside of his attack potency and durability. Because it's just a dimensional rip, Bill's striking strength and lifting strength doesn't scale to Low 2-C, meaning he's physically not a Low 2-C being.

Can't we assume the exact same thing for Alien X when it comes to durability?
 
Honestly, if it means we can stop having like 4 circular repeating threads every month for this, i'd actually be willing to make Celestialsapiens existence erasure 2-B as a compromise.

So long as it doesn't scale to their individual statisitcs (which some of you seem to be fine with given your argument for the time bomb not being AP).
 
Outside of it arguably being an outlier, pretty much. The issue is this is the statement is the only reason why Alien X has EE in the first place. Had he had other things that justified him having the ability, it would be fine.

What if we combine the servantis statement with Kevin statement and when Alien x was going to destroy Professor paradox? https://youtu.be/p1UWUdpeK18 2 :37 Wouldn't this be an evidence for Alien x possibly having EE?
 
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