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Soul Crush Doesn't Exist

YungManzi

YungManzi

8,189
1,928
A bit of clickbait. Really, this is just a place to put discussion on Reiatsu Crush because people still argue over it and staff don't agree on if it's to be accepted (As it is now), but won't directly argue each other on the issue.

So this is the thread to do it. Made so any versus or other threads don't get derailed with this discussion.
 
Reishi doesn't have anything to do with Reitasu in the OP btw. It's just spiritual matter.

Also what is the evidence that it shouldn't be rated as soul manipulation?
 
Patience is a virtue my child, just wait until we get the RC blog created that way we can organize all of the information on it and explain it in a way that unfamiliar users can understand.
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
Reishi doesn't have anything to do with Reitasu in the OP btw. It's just spiritual matter.
Also what is the evidence that it shouldn't be rated as soul manipulation?
Click to expand...
I watched bleach a very long time ago, so I didn't even quite know the difference. Especially since the spellings are so similar.
 
Summed up point of this thread:

According to what AKM sama says on the matter, Reiatsu Crush isn't accepted to be used the way it currently is being used in vs matches. The power/ability in and of itself is fine to keep, but its treatment of it being soul hax and needing soul resistance to overcome it is whats claimed to be wrong. From the previous energy equalization thread we had where we decided to add in Caveats , Reiatsu Crush was among the haxes affected by the new rule of failing against people who have comparable/higher amounts of spiritual energy equivalants in vs matches.

And in recent vs threads where Reiatsu Crush has been used as an argument, AKM-sama has made claims to make it blatantly clear that Reiatsu Crush, as it is being used now in vs threads, is wrong. Quotes from AKM from these said threads to show what im saying:

"You mean the effect that has a limitation of not working on anyone having a higher level of reiryoku / spiritual energy, and wouldn't work in this case due to that same caveat."

"Second, I don't know if you're in denial or acting ignorant, but the new rule does affect "reiatsu crushing the opponent" argument (or more specifically, the workings of this ability) because the staff thread was made to discuss how this specific ability works in versus threads. The consensus was accepted and the new rule was set as the by-product of that discussion. Now don't argue semantics. No, it doesn't specifically need to mention a verse-specific word in there and we won't add separate rules for all such powers. It's a general rule for all such powers, and this one falls under it as accepted in a staff thread.So no, a separate CRT won't be created to do the same thing again and resolve an already resolved issue. If you have problems and have something new to bring to the table, then you're welcome to create a CRT and change how it currently works. If there isn't anything new, then I'd appreciate if people drop this argument and don't derail threads by repeatedly bringing the same old topic in every versus thread. Thank you."So no, a separate CRT won't be created to do the same thing again and resolve an already resolved issue. If you have problems and have something new to bring to the table, then you're welcome to create a CRT and change how it currently works. If there isn't anything new, then I'd appreciate if people drop this argument and don't derail threads by repeatedly bringing the same old topic in every versus thread. Thank you."

"Saying someone got debunked doesn't mean much, Imade was debunked entirely on the thread. The rule was set in place as a general thing only to avoid cases like THIS specific one, for which we had an entire discussion and NEEDED to create a rule. It was aimed at THIS argument alone, and you'd know that since you read the thread.It was decided and put to rest in the staff thread and I'd appreciate it if you don't constantly bring it up again and again. You want to change how it works? Create a CRT if you have something NEW to bring to the table, simple."

So to make the long story short, AKM claims Reiatsu Crush is being used incorrectly in vs matches. That instead of being treated as being purely a hax, it needs to have the caveat of failing against opponents with comparable spiritual energy equivalents applied to it. A rule that some people here have been opposed to.

So now this thread is to determine if what AKM has said on the matter is right/wrong or if the opposition that opposes him and supports the current Reiatsu Crush is right/wrong.
 
Please post the evidence that suggest it works otherwise as to what is currently accepted which is soul manipulation.

The long post you just put up tldr is essentially it doesn't work this way but doesn't mention why in any of them.
 
I'm not even sure how we'd even quantify on how a character would have more spiritual based energy than another character. But please, since you've been arguing so vehemently in favor of AKM's notion I'm sure that you'll have a valid way for us to quantify AKM's suggestion.
 
I think the counter argument is because Reiatsu is emitted as a physical and spiritual pressure, if you equalise energies and a Bleach character is 7-A emitting Reiatsu whilst another verse has a 7-A who also emits a 7-A aura then it will not affect them.
 
Interesting considering we have an accepted thread where Reitasu isn't = to AP nor Durability.

Aizen is 5-B and Shunsui can stand right next to him even though Aizen has a thick aura around him that disintegrates beings or just kills them as shown in the manga against the mimihagi stream Yhwach unleashed.
 
EmperorRorepme said:
I think the counter argument is because Reiatsu is emitted as a physical and spiritual pressure, if you equalise energies and a Bleach character is 7-A emitting Reiatsu whilst another verse has a 7-A who also emits a 7-A aura then it will not affect them.
Click to expand...
This is what my friend, who is a bleach expert, says...but he won't argue on it...

He doesn't even think it's really soul manipulation. More-so it's just aura which can physically harm stuff. An aura which also has non-physical interaction via affecting souls, but wouldn't do something like bypass durability of a physical being by attacking their soul.

Although, I've heard no one in the VBW Bleach community have these views.
 
"Soul Manipulation is the ability to interact with one's soul or the souls of others. This ability ranges from being able to project the power of one's soul outward, grasping and ripping the souls of others out of their bodies, outright consuming souls to gain power, among other applications."

Your friend is like totally wrong.
 
Even in the community the finer points can be disagreed.

The main thing to note is that, as IMade shows and explains many times, Reiatsu isn't simply equal to power. Ikaku's Bankai makes him stronger but doesn't make him more durable as he spins his blade. Genryuusai takes the full power blast of an atatck he had been charging since the start of the battle against the 3 top Espada, so his endurance is way higher than his attack even after charging his attack massively.

Among other examples that I don't remember. If it was just physical pressure, Tatsuki's 10-A self would be a splatter on the ground, rather than looking weakened and about to pass out.
 
Only because it's an easy win most of the time and people hate that it takes away their precious arguments as opposed to just "lol crush". Or they just don't know the difference between reishi, reiatsu, and reiryoku which is most people from my experience.
 
"Reiatsu can affect the souls of other but that is not Soul manip"

What ?

Anyway , IMade did such a good job detailing how reiatsu crush work and how verse equal would mean for it .

Verse equal only permit you to resist the physical destruction of your body with your AP , your soul is still getting crushed if you don't have sufficient ammount of resistance .

It's currently accepted and until a CRT is made to debunk it and taken off the profile ,it can be used .
 
AstralKing7 said:
It's not accepted at all. Staff members recently just said this
Click to expand...
A couple of threads existing that ended in it being accepted, everyone knowing about it but nobody making any sort of CRT about it, and the few that are made actually getting slapped away because they didn't find sufficient proof sounds to me like it is accepted by a majority.

Or the ones that don't accept it have nothing good to remove it.

One thing that I have found curious is the people bringing up overpowering it by AP, and makes me wonder what sort of criteria everyone has to decide when Hax has an AP weakness, or that the person simply resisted.
 
I was asked to comment here. I will say I got to say I am more or less neutral on Reiatsu crush; I will say I do believe what is on the Standard Battle Assumptions page, currently. I think since there are confusions on the Reiatsu/Reiryoku then a blog/explaination page should be made so we don't repeat the topics many more time again; I think people like Imade were working on proper blog for the explanation of Reiatsu/Reiryoku.
 
Pretty funny how the man who originally made the claim ( AKM ) hasn't commented here yet, despite probably having had seen this by now.


Someone should ask him for input, I'd genuinely enjoy to hear what he's flawed argument are even based on.
 
this has been an ongoing discussion topic that last for quite a while with him being one of key member for the side that constantly argue against reiatsu crush though. it's not as if this is only got brought up a few hours ago. that kind of reasoning doesn't really fly when you fail to arrive and gave your side of arguments when you're expected to multiple times by now. if hes really that busy in real life then simply cease arguing against this thing until he himself can show up and make the necessary argument rather than "citing" or "quoting" him nonstop without the guy himself even being there to clarify on his "points" that other people like to reiterate which wouldn't even move the argument in neither direction. or you can simply makes the argument on your own without banking on a particular admin and present that on a crt and see how that goes, that honestly sounds like a pretty simple solution

far as everything's concerned, this particular power is already implemented on their page which mean it has been accepted at some point. you or akm can make a separate crt to remove this if you really want it gone. continuously derailing threads by bringing this thing up again and again without putting it up on a proper crt honestly seems pretty suspect at this point

really, if either akm or the people that like to cite him are so adamant on this thing and honestly think that their argument is solid enough to prove it being invalid, why don't they simply make a crt off of it? what's so hard about that anyway. all these going back and forth derails really feel like nothing more than a waste of time
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Or maybe you should consider the slight possibility that he has an actual life outside of the wikia? Like many of us here do?
Click to expand...
Lmao,just look at his profile he was pretty active today and yesterday
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Okay? Doesn't change the point that not all of our time is devoted to this site. Do the simple thing and be patient.
Click to expand...


Usually when someone is the only person arguing for a certain point that person is usually wrong. You've been told by various users that you need to make a CRT if you wish to remove RC.
 
Im sure you know "Usually" isnt the same as "always". That said, that can all be answered when AKM comes to give his input here. So, again, be patient.
 
far as everything's concerned, this particular power is already implemented on their page which mean it has been accepted at some point. you or akm can make a separate crt to remove this if you really want it gone.

Why would it need to be removed from their profiles? The "Reiatsu Crush has limitations" people aren't saying that it's not soul manip.

I was asked to comment here but I'm not sure how much input I can actually provide. In the last thread I said the proposed changes to SBA were meaningless because they didn't tackle the actual issue. And waddya know, here we are 6 months later because the proposed changes didn't tackle the actual issue.

I don't know enough of the specifics of Bleach to comment on exactly how RC works to further this thread.
 
Agnaa has a point, they didn't say it isn't soul manipulation, just that the soul manipulation can be overcome with AP. The thing is that IMade mentioned and showed plenty of cases of people without anything close to comparable AP resisting. The most blatant case I can think of is Tatsuki barely holding on with Yammy close, and Chad not being affected despite getting nearly one shot by a casual attack of Yammy's. No proper answer has been offered for this, despite happening many, many times.

Also, stop with the unneccessary cries. Comments about AKM coming or whatever are just getting a little too much, like some sort of Witch Hunt. They are getting a little too much on the provocative side and I am getting tired of that shit attitude.

I do agree with Gun though. If you haven't had a CRT to get that removed after it's been accepted and debated so many times that everyone is tired, drop it until you actually make such a CRT. It gets annoying and becomes an honest waste of time. We can shut up about other issues we disagree with until something significant enough comes up to argue for its change (like with True-Godly being a thing at all), so why is this any different?

Also Agnaa, what was the actual issue of SBA that you felt wasn't tackled?
 
The thing is that IMade mentioned and showed plenty of cases of people without anything close to comparable AP resisting. The most blatant case I can think of is Tatsuki barely holding on with Yammy close, and Chad not being affected despite getting nearly one shot by a casual attack of Yammy's. No proper answer has been offered for this, despite happening many, many times.

I gave a proper answer to this in the last thread. A weaker character resisting doesn't prove that the ability won't work on stronger opponents. For an analogy, if there's EE which only works on people who wear yellow shirts, a character wearing a yellow shirt could survive it through EE resistance.

Again, I don't know enough about RC to say whether it is implied to not work on stronger opponents or not, but I know enough about logic to disprove that argument.

Hell, those weaker people resisting it implies that it's not just that stronger people have a resistance, since weaker people can resist it too.

Also Agnaa, what was the actual issue of SBA that you felt wasn't tackled?

I never thought it was an issue of SBA in the first place. It's an issue of whether it should be treated as a weakness or as a limitation.
 
Via the opposing side argument fodder can be scaled to tier 5 or something. It's being argued it's based around AP and some even say it isn't Soul Manipulation.
 
It is not implied at any point, no, the argument simply stemmed off the fact that people with comparable AP tend to not be bothered by it at all, which kinda ignores the many times characters with lesser AP are barely bothered by it. And that is true, but the issue is that the direct implication is that certain characters simply resist more. Orihime has the very same AP as fodder hollows, the same fodder hollows that Starkk killed passively despite the fact she outright touched him, as an example.

So kinda what I was thinking. I felt at times that there's no generalized guidelines or ideas around what should be treated as a limitation/weakness and what should be treated as a resistance (at least when there's no explicit statement of any sort of AP/Power/Etc making the technique less effective).
 
It it wasn't soul hax Fullbring Ichigo wouldn't have needed to train his physical human body to the limit, for his body to withstand his own reiatsu.
 
I don't know what else is there left to say since I already said everything in the last thread and most of the people, including staff, agreed with that. To clarify, I never said the ability needs to be removed from the profile, just that it has a caveat of not working on characters who have more energy. Unless you somehow got evidence of someone's reiatsu crush working on characters with higher energy, nothing changed from the last time.
 
But it has, the fact that I simply don't agree.

Orihime has no more energy than fodder Hollow (or Menos Grande, which are also in the desert where Starkk was and were more numerous) yet she resists standing right in front of Stark unlike all the Hollow's that died passively around him.

And no, he's not suppressing his power or anything of the sort. If that solved anything, he would have done that to not be lonely in the first place.
 
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