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Madokami vs Grandfather spider

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The_Causality

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Well, according to some people in the strongest characters for every tier thread, Wizard101 god tier can defeat Puella Magi god tier in 2-A, and since i have nothing to do i guess i'll just make the thread.

Konachan-com-196968-breasts-cleavage-dress-gloves-kaname madoka-long hair-mahou shoujo madoka magica-pink hair-swd3e2-ultimate madoka-yellow eyes
Grandfather Spider Render (1)
 
Her typical starting move is Law destruction (And when that doesn't work, then it becomes law manip based BFR), but it usually doesn't get there due to passives and her AE type 5.
 
Conceptual manipulation type 2 has been established in other big vsbattles to be >>> Type 5 acausality

Law manipulation of any kind wont be much trouble to Spider, neither would BFR. He resists law manipulation on Grandmother Ravens level, who embodies, controls and manipulates law/order across the entire multiverse on a type 2 conceptual level; He exists to perfectly counterbalance law manipulation.

What passives? Spider has passives of conceptual levels himself and resists many and if not has counters.

I see nothing stopping Spider from instantly going for the kill, as he has learned his lesson of underestimating people who look weak/child looking beings with magic and power.
 
I should also mention that Shadow Magic, which spider embodies, has law manipulation on a multiversal scale as one of its core attributes
 
She also can see all futures, possible and those to never be, so she has a massive intellect advantage here too.
 
Spider's Conceptual Manipulation is in pretty much all of his abilities.

Skill Seal is completely outdone by Debilitate and Ommegation, both of which are passives which affect other passives including power null.

Also, Spider's precog sees things millennia in advance and he scales to Raven who created artifacts which grant omniscience.
 
So what does he start with?

Debilitate won't work due to her Acausality, idk what Ommegatiom is.

In an acausality battle of this scale, that precog won't work. There is also a slight speed gap, not a big one (Immeasurable vs Omnipresent) but it means that Madoka's attack's will hit 'first'.

His acausality type 4 covers type 1 right on a multiversal scale right? Like he wouldn't be affected by time traveling.
 
Hard to say what he starts with since the only time he ever fights the player he's in a weakened state and even then he was casually toying with them.

Debilitate's probability hax are only part of the equation. It still negs damage and healing.

His precognition allowed him to accurately predict the outcome of his battle against Raven who is also acausal so I don't see why it wouldn't work here.

He and Raven are unbound by time. Raven herself is unaffected by Spider reversing time and she undoes his reversal without even moving.
 
I see.

The important passives do neither though, particularily skill seal.

Acasuality type 4 (Raven and Spider) < type 5 (Outside casuality in its entirely).

Ye, I saw from the page, I'm just asking if outside of time also includes the multiverse too.

Her passives don't require energy, she has limitless stamina too, and she resists anyways
 
They don't have to require energy to be dispelled, that's just a part of it.

Yes it includes the multiverse.

Spider resists power nullification too through several different things.
 
It sounds like Acasuality Type 5 gets rid of the dispel part then.

I schnee.

Skill Seal negates the activation, not the ability itself, so its not power null, as strange as it may appear. Though even then, it also negs passive resistances (aka normal resistances).
 
Okay now that I'm home (and not limited to mobile) it's easier for me to type and explain things.

So, about Skill Seal.... that's literally the same thing as Omnegation. Omnegation prevents spells (even passive spells) from ever being cast. If you try to cast a spell with Omnegation in play, you will "fizzle" the spell and none of its effects will take place save for the energy subtraction. But either way Omnegation is being amped by Spider's Conceptual Manipulation (like I said, it's in all of his abilities) which was established earlier as being superior to Acausality type 5.
 
Spider might also arguably be missing a good bit of passives on his profile depending on how we scale magical spells to the "source of magic" for those spells.
 
That sounds like Power Nullifcation, given energy is lost and there is a 'fizzle'.

Skill Seal prevents passives from working, you could still activate an active version of the same ability if you have it.

Is the ability also temporary? Even if it can affect Acasuality Type 5, it wouldn't be able to change the fact that it would make temporal effects useless.
 
"That sounds like Power Nullifcation, given energy is lost and there is a 'fizzle'."

Yeah but I never said it wasn't so I don't understand why you brought it up.

"Skill Seal prevents passives from working, you could still activate an active version of the same ability if you have it."


So it only works against passives? Is that what you're saying? I'm confused, but if that is what you're saying then it's kind of an irrelevant ability since Spider's passives can also be forced onto someone by choice.

"Is the ability also temporary?"

There's no timer on the ability but it goes away after it successfully dispels something, and it can be repeatedly cast and stacked on itself.
 
You're saying it was the same this as Skill Seal and I said Skill Seal ain't Power Nullifcation, hence why I brought it up.

Yes, that's what I've been saying in the thread (and resistances). Ye, I know, I'm saying that because this battle is unlikely to go pass the passives stage. As Skill Seal means the other passives can defeat Grandfather.

So, it would only dispel something, go away, and then need to be actively cast? Which means one of her passives get nulled but skill seal still happens.
 
"You're saying it was the same this as Skill Seal and I said Skill Seal ain't Power Nullifcation, hence why I brought it up."

I don't see why that doesn't count as being Power Nullification if it's literally preventing an ability from being used despite characters having said ability. What else could it be? Also, why wouldn't Skill Seal be itself affected by Spider's Power Nullification?

"So, it would only dispel something, go away, and then need to be actively cast?"

It's kind of hard to explain. The way it works is that certain spells (or the effects of some spells) can be cast passively by certain characters while at the same time be actively cast by them as well.

For example, Dispel All, which does the exact same thing as Omnegation, was first seen to be cast passively by a character (It also predates Omnegation by several years) every few rounds. Omnegation does the exact same thing as Dispel All but it's actively cast which is why we combined the two in the profiles.
 
Because Power Nullification would imply its negating the ability, when I pointed out the ability can still be activated, its just the passive nature no longer is there.

The 'slight' speed advantage means she's technically already affecting him via Skill Seal before Power Nulling her. That, and he would be dealing with an avatar, her true conceptual self is in a higher realm.

________________________________________________________________________

I'm sorry, I meant: would it negate a passive ability, but not all the passive abilities?

Currently, I was thinking Omnegation would absolutely power null everything Madoka had at the same time, but looking at the profiles it didn't make sense with his loss against the player. So when I asked, I meant if this ability like completely nulls all her abilities passively at once.
 
Okay I understand some of the confusion here.

"the ability can still be activated, its just the passive nature no longer is there."

Spider has that too in the form of several spells, most notably Lord of the Squall. Either way I'd argue that's technically power nullification but I don't want to go off-topic over something that trivial - what it's called doesn't change what it does.

"I'm sorry, I meant: would it negate a passive ability, but not all the passive abilities?"

It would negate all passives at once.

"it didn't make sense with his loss against the player"

Player vs Spider is basically another example of Mace Windu vs Sidious in that it's arguable if the latter was doing anything more than just toying with the former. That said, Omnegation is only a factor in his 2-A key. You could potentially argue him having it in both keys through scaling but he doesn't use it at all in his Low 2-C key (though again, he might not have cared enough to). The reason we know he has it in his 2-A key is because he scales to Bartleby who is the source of magic in the Spiral and the reason Omnegation and Dispel All exist in the first place.

The 'slight' speed advantage means she's technically already affecting him via Skill Seal before Power Nulling her.

Spider's Shadow Magic is omnipresent too. Also, I plan to make a CRT which gives Rave, Bartleby and Spider omnipresence on account of Bartleby's roots spreading across the entire Spiral.

" he would be dealing with an avatar, her true conceptual self is in a higher realm."

I mean... that's pretty much the same with Spider. He literally sees existence (inside the Spiral and beyond it) as a flattened wheel in comparison to him, unless you're saying she's 5D or something then that doesn't really matter.
 
"Currently, I was thinking Omnegation would absolutely power null everything Madoka had at the same time, but looking at the profiles it didn't make sense with his loss against the player. So when I asked, I meant if this ability like completely nulls all her abilities passively at once."

That was weakened Spider, without his heart. This is Spider at full power. WoG has made it clear The Player would lose to Spider and co. before they could even react. Spider's Shadow Magic can also passively nullify abilities, and is a constant across the multiverse, conceptual in nature.

"The 'slight' speed advantage means she's technically already affecting him via Skill Seal before Power Nulling her. That, and he would be dealing with an avatar, her true conceptual self is in a higher realm."

Spider's true form is as well, and he can affect raven too who exists truely in a higher realm. What speed advantage? Due to her omnipresence? Spider has a form of omnipresence. The concept he embodies forms and is a constant across the entire multiverse, and must be eradicated across reality to kill him.
 
@Ben

But is Lord of the Squall passive?

If it is, we'd get an incon thread or Madoka via speed / range (affecting 2 multiverses) at this point.

I'm assuming by scales to Bartleby you mean absorbed him or some equivalent, because we don't scale techniques unless there is a reason to. Though the omnegation does make this sound like an incon thread.

Madoka is a bit beyond that. She had already transcended it to the point that even past and future are simply visible to her, even ones that no longer exist or will. While the scale you're presenting is impressive, Madoka's version is extremely greater, comparing across the multiverse to the past and future of a multiverse.

@Zenkai

Not much I could argue here, unless the heart doesn't have Acausality ig.

I was going off his profile. The concept he embodies is impressive, but Madoka's spans two multiverses and can even partially react to universes outside those two.
 
But is Lord of the Squall passive?

It's a Shadow spell and Spider's Shadow Magic is shown to be passive for him so yes.

"If it is, we'd get an incon thread or Madoka via speed / range (affecting 2 multiverses) at this point."


They're both 2-A so they both have infinite range. Also, the Spiral isn't the only multiverse that Spider threatens. There's the Other Side, which houses a "reflection" of every world of the Spiral, and the Reverie, which hosts a universe-sized dreamworld for every individual in the Spiral. These things were all going to be nothing more than collatoral damage in Spider's war against Raven because neither of them would've been affected by the destruction of them. To top it all off, the Spiral (a 2-A multiverse) is seen as an echo of an even larger multiverse out there which Spider threatened to destroy.

"I'm assuming by scales to Bartleby you mean absorbed him or some equivalent, because we don't scale techniques unless there is a reason to."

Spider, Bartleby and Raven are each regarded as equals. Bartleby and Raven created the Spiral and Bartleby is connected to every single world in the Spiral. Spider stated that after the Spiral was destroyed, he could weave a new Spiral. There's also a cryptic prophecy which alludes to Spider having omnipresence .

". She had already transcended it to the point that even past and future are simply visible to her, even ones that no longer exist or will. "

That's cool and all but there are infinitely weaker characters in Wizard101 who can see stuff like that too.

"Madoka's version is extremely greater, comparing across the multiverse to the past and future of a multiverse."

Spider in his Low 2-C key was going to revert time across all the Spiral back to the First World (with prep), with laws of time which are incomprehensibly different to the Spiral. For context: Each world of the Spiral has their own unique flow of time, either moving quicker or slower than the others. His tampering threatened to destroy all of the other timelines of the Spiral in the process as well. All of this was seen as (and stated to be) trivial to him because he exists outside of time.
 
We still don't scale by virtue of being equals unless there is a reason to like I mentioned.

That seems to be on a completely lower scale, not to mention the profile specifically says that Spider cant do so.

"With prep" < I think you have my response. Every barrier has its own unique flow of time, and so does every timeline. If it didn't, that would be a problem. But this is standard for a multiverse.
 
"We still don't scale by virtue of being equals unless there is a reason to like I mentioned."

I literally provided you the reasons for it which are different from just being stated as equal.

"That seems to be on a completely lower scale, not to mention the profile specifically says that Spider cant do so."

Can't do what? I'm unsure what you're responding to with that.

""With prep" < I think you have my response"

Everything I mentioned with regards to him having prep was on his first key without his heart. With his heart, he scales to Raven, who casually altered the flow of time back to how she wanted it to be.

"Every barrier has its own unique flow of time"

I'm talking about planets as a whole though.
 
I meant relevant reasons, considering each other as equals is something every rival in fiction usually does. Creating the multiverse and being connected to it don't have anything to do with sharing all your abilities. Recreating the multiverse and possibly having omnipresence are also non-sequitors.

The inifinitely lower character can see the future of a timeline scan was what I was refering to.

Ye, with prep tho. It shows a gap exists, but it doesn't directly scale with the raw stats of his previous form.

Sorry, I'm confused. When you said that the Spiral is composed of infinite worlds then, were you refering to timelines or planets with their own timespace?
 
"I meant relevant reasons, considering each other as equals is something every rival in fiction usually does."

I'm not calling them equals because they consider each other as equals, I'm calling them equals because they literally exist to counterbalance each other .

"Recreating the multiverse and possibly having omnipresence are also non-sequitors."

I understand that. I'm going off of this statement for Bartleby and the fact that he's repeatedly projected himself across the Spiral with full knowledge of where you are and what you did/are doing as well as what's happening within the Spiral.

"The inifinitely lower character can see the future of a timeline scan was what I was refering to."

Okay, I see. I'm assuming you're going by "Nigh-Omniscience with the Eye of History (Allows him to know everything across the past and present, but he cannot see the future) ".

That's specifically talking about what the Eye of History gives him as an advantage. His precognition is separate and independent from the Eyes of Time.

"Sorry, I'm confused. When you said that the Spiral is composed of infinite worlds then, were you refering to timelines or planets with their own timespace?"

So, the cosmology is pretty confusing. The Spiral itself is said to have "countless worlds" inside it (referring to planets) but in Wizard101, the term "Spiral" is pretty much synonymous for "Universe", meaning that at any one point someone could be referring to the singular Universe that they live in, or the entire Multiverse, which consists of the Other Side, the Reverie, and "endless" timelines. When I say worlds I'm referring to planets because that's what the game describes as being "worlds". In that instance I was referring to the planets in each timeline for the Spiral having their own unique flow of time.
 
I'm not calling them equals because they consider each other as equals, I'm calling them equals because they literally exist to counterbalance each other.

Which doesn't mean they have the share the same abilities, like Dialga and Palkia or Kriemhild Gretche and Madoka Kaname. As a matter of fact, counterbalancing gives credence to the idea that they have the opposing abilities than the same.

I understand that. I'm going off of this statement for Bartleby and the fact that he's repeatedly projected himself across the Spiral with full knowledge of where you are and what you did/are doing as well as what's happening within the Spiral.

I also understand that, but that doesn't come out as relevant for having the same abilities, as a matter of fact, your scan explicitly has them working on different aspects of creation, showing they don't share all the same abilities.

That's specifically talking about what the Eye of History gives him as an advantage. His precognition is separate and independent from the Eyes of Time.

You linked a scan with 'The Professor' in rebuttal to Ultimate Madoka's intellect advantage, that was what I was referring to.

So, the cosmology is pretty confusing. The Spiral itself is said to have "countless worlds" inside it (referring to planets) but in Wizard101, the term "Spiral" is pretty much synonymous for "Universe", meaning that at any one point someone could be referring to the singular Universe that they live in, or the entire Multiverse, which consists of the Other Side, the Reverie, and "endless" timelines. When I say worlds I'm referring to planets because that's what the game describes as being "worlds". In that instance I was referring to the planets in each timeline for the Spiral having their own unique flow of time.

That makes sense, but we treat endless and countless worlds worlds as 2-B not 2-A. Even then, having planets with their own timespace inside timelines, that's not a step up from baseline 2-A.
 
"Which doesn't mean they have the share the same abilities, like Dialga and Palkia or Kriemhild Gretche and Madoka Kaname. As a matter of fact, counterbalancing gives credence to the idea that they have the opposing abilities than the same."

Fair enough, but most of the characters in the game have very similar abilties from one another when they're equal in power. Especially since, for the most part, it involves spells which can be learned from each other. I still believe that the prophecy I linked earlier is (minor) evidence towards omnipresence

"I also understand that, but that doesn't come out as relevant for having the same abilities, as a matter of fact, your scan explicitly has them working on different aspects of creation, showing they don't share all the same abilities."

Same as above... only Bartleby is confirmed to have the abilities of both Raven & Spider (to lesser extents) via being the mortar which binds them together..

"You linked a scan with 'The Professor' in rebuttal to Ultimate Madoka's intellect advantage, that was what I was referring to."

I'm still kind of confused because you brought up Spider's profile stating that he couldn't see those timelines.

That makes sense, but we treat endless and countless worlds worlds as 2-B not 2-A. Even then, having planets with their own timespace inside timelines, that's not a step up from baseline 2-A.

I already know that about "countless". That's why Arc 1 Player is 3-A instead of High 3-A. The "endless" statement is what gave Wizard101 the rank of 2-A to begin with. I wasn't trying to set up for 2-A through talking about the planets, it was more to do with how much more Spider would have to do in order to affect the Spiral in the way that he did.
 
I'm not arguing against them having similar powers, but you said several of Spider's abilities come from that. Those specifically shouldn't be there.

I see, that makes sense, but the inverse isn't a thing, right?

Ye, my original post used Spider's innability to see the future as well as Ultimate Madoka as an argument, your response was the professor, to which all my responses have been debunking to be comparable.

Oh boy, this is going to end badly for me, but did anyone in the thread actually think that the creators knew what "Multiversal+" a term that no way suggests infinite universes, as 2-A confirmation. And not that they were commending him for his cosmology, not tiering? As for endless sands, well. Its literally used right after flowery language describing how bright the place is.

For everyone whose voting Spider (Other than Ben and Zenkai ofc, I assume you guys already have a reason for voting in your head), mind mentioning the Wincon? Next time please read the thread before voting, we haven't even gotten to that side yet, we're still questioning each other profile.
 
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