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Madokami vs Grandfather spider

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"I'm not arguing against them having similar powers, but you said several of Spider's abilities come from that. Those specifically shouldn't be there."

The thing is that Spider has already shown to use the same magic spells that the Wizard uses, and those spells are derivative from Bartleby. It's unknown if Spider is using Bartleby to cast those spells but we still see him use those abilities regardless. Not to mention that the whole system of magic (as well as the multiverse as a whole) relies on Spider's Shadow Magic to begin with.

"Ye, my original post used Spider's innability to see the future as well as Ultimate Madoka as an argument, your response was the professor, to which all my responses have been debunking to be comparable."

Yeah I admit it was a pretty bad comparison, it was mostly being used for "Well, these guys can see alternate timelines and they're infinitely weaker and less intelligent." But either way Spider's precognition allowed him to see the outcome of his war against Raven, something even Bartleby's Eyes of Time couldn't do.

"did anyone in the thread actually think that the creators knew what "Multiversal+" a term that no way suggests infinite universes, as 2-A confirmation. And not that they were commending him for his cosmology, not tiering?"

That's a fair assumption to make. You're welcome to make a CRT if you want to, but the developers have also stated that the Spiral is "always expanding", and it's like Wokistan said in the thread: "Sure you might have issues with "should this be literal" but there's nothing that doesn't already apply to statements of infinity.". Not to mention Zenkai refers to the Reverie's dream worlds as being infinite in size and they supported that.

About why I'm voting for Spider: I genuinely don't see anything on Madoka's profile which Spider couldn't just replicate or dispel, especially if Spider gets omnipresence after I create the CRT (which I'll do once I finish reviewing Arc 2 of the game and everything in it).
 
Oh, if that's the case for the relevant abilities, then nevermind me, but I was under the assumption that the spells you mentioned weren't shown used by Spider.

That's an impressive feat, and again I don't mean to downplay it, but that's not comparable to seeing all of time and no longer possible futures like Ultimate Madoka does.

Wokistan has a point, but I don't think he saw the flowery language used in the same sentence.

I'd argue something similar for Ultimate Madoka, which is why I said this is either an Incon or a victory for Ultimate Madoka via speed / range / intelligence advantage. But this specific point wasn't really oriented towards you, it was just me noting that everyone who just voted didn't actually read the win-con, as you hadn't even wrote it til now.
 
"Oh, if that's the case for the relevant abilities, then nevermind me, but I was under the assumption that the spells you mentioned weren't shown used by Spider."

Yeah it's fine... The Wizard101 profiles aren't really as organized or as clear as I would like them to be. There are several spells which have been overlooked and as a result many abilities are missing on some of the profiles, and there are also certain instances in which an ability was mislabeled (Shadow Magic's Power Mimicry was labeled as Attack Reflection for like a year before I fixed it). I hope to reorganize the profiles and be as clear and easy-to-understand as possible, but before that I'm going to take a look back at the previous Arcs (Arc 1 and 2) and collect all relevant scans so I can do it all at once.

"That's an impressive feat, and again I don't mean to downplay it, but that's not comparable to seeing all of time and no longer possible futures like Ultimate Madoka does."

I brought it up because of the fact that WoG have confirmed that "all of existence" in regards to Spider and Raven destroying everything was confirmed to have included all of those timelines. So, both Raven and Spider could freely interact with those other timelines. Plus, Spider could accurately see the future concerning other Acausal beings. I'm still not sure how different that would make it from Madoka's vision but I feel it should be at least somewhat comparable.

"I'd argue something similar for Ultimate Madoka, which is why I said this is either an Incon or a victory for Ultimate Madoka via speed / range / intelligence advantage"

The range should be equal since they're both 2-A. Infinity^Infinity = Infinity and Infinity/999999999999999999999999999999 = Infinity. But again the Spiral isn't the only Multiverse in Spider's reach despite it being 2-A. There's the Other Side, which reflects the Spiral, and the Reverie, which literally houses a to-scale dreamworld copy of the Spiral for every living being in the Spiral. The intelligence aspect is something else which I plan to rectify in my CRT since Spider could accurately see the outcome of something that the Eyes couldn't. He didn't even use the Eye of History for the nigh-omniscience aspect, he used it so he could alter time. I'm also curious about what you think the match would be like if speed was equalized from the start, not that I think it should matter within the context of this thread.
 
KK

Acasuality type 5 =/= Acauality type 4 precog.

At this point, the omnipresence has no choice but to become relevant, its a small gap of course, but in a battle of passives where each character can do the same thing as the other, it becomes awfully important. The same with Omniscience, though if you want, I could close the thread til your CRTs come and maybe more things change.
 
"Acasuality type 5 =/= Acauality type 4 precog."

Okay, but there's still the Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation unless you disagree with it countering Acausality Type 5.

"I could close the thread til your CRTs come and maybe more things change."

You could close it if you'd like but I'm fine with keeping it open. It'll take a while before I get to working on my CRT, but I'm not sure how much of it would actually affect Spider beyond what I've already listed. If it gets down to it a rematch could just be made after the CRT is done with.
 
I'm indifferent for now. Not placing my vote yet. I'm just waiting on SD to make a settlement on this since I currently trust his judgment more than anyone else so far on this thread.
 
I always have been an issue with the verse 2-A rating myself. Being having "Endless" Universe is not enough for a verse being a 2-A, despite the constantly expanding stuffs.

You can have countless multiplies by countless multiplies by countless again but it will never reach Infinity unless there is statement for that.

But that's for later CRT. For now, Madoka due encompassing bigger cosmology and more potent hax.
 
"Endless" is frequently regarded as being synonymous with infinite.

Both of their cosmologies have infinite universes in them so saying one is bigger than the other contradicts the nature of the term. Like I said before: Infinity^Infinity = Infinity and Infinity/999999999999999999999999999999 = Infinity. You can't add, multiply, divide or subtract from Infinity to get a different value. I'd like to know which part of her hax are more potent too.
 
If "endless" is truly the same as Infinite, then Arceus and the CRT and even some DBH entities like Grand Priest and Mechi should be 2A as well.
 
Beast Zero Gudako said:
I always have been an issue with the verse 2-A rating myself. Being having "Endless" Universe is not enough for a verse being a 2-A, despite the constantly expanding stuffs.

You can have countless multiplies by countless multiplies by countless again but it will never reach Infinity unless there is statement for that.

But that's for later CRT. For now, Madoka due encompassing bigger cosmology and more potent hax.
Click to expand...
Honestly a CRT MIGHT need to be considered trying to establish if "endless" and "countless" should be considered the same as "infinite". It'd be big because the gap between 2B and 2A is hella immense.
 
We're only using "endless" as proof for 2-A with regards to Wizard101. Countless is only being used as a placement for a very large amount, but go ahead and make the thread.
 
I wouldn't know, but from what I've heard "endless" being 2-A depends on the context of the statement. The context here was that there were an endless amount of alternate timelines existing which equates to infinite alternate timelines.
 
From what I know about Arceus the difference is that Arceus's multiverse is expanding infinitely whereas in Wizard101 there are already infinite timelines. I could be wrong but I think that's the main difference here.
 
Infinity + 1 or more is still Infinity.

Countless or Endless + 1 is still just Countless/Endless due to no exact number, which would be finite amount, but not infinite.
 
If it's a finite amount, it has an end to it and as such can't be endless.


This is derailing off topic though. If you want to continue it should probably be through one of our message walls or in a different thread.
 
It's more like uncountable but still finite, though. Basically a number that just can't be measured or calculated by normal means, unless I'm missing something here.

I'd suggest don't count any votes yet for this thread until this part involving range gets resolved in another CRT. In short, put this on hold for now.
 
Wokistan was the one who originally said it should be 2-A, as the statement is referring to it already being endless rather than it just "reaching" that point.

Either way, that is derailing the thread.

The arguments for Spider is pretty straight forward here

Type 2 Concept Manipulation > Acausality Type 5

Spider's concept is shadow magic which in itself holds multiple abilities.

His passive power nullification and resistance to Madoka's starting move, which Somebodydata said is law destruction, won't work on him since he resists Raven's level of law manipulation, which I have outlined to be superior to Madoka's, as well as the immortality stuff about being from an higher plane

If you want to contest the term "endless", do it in another thread. It was 2-A because staff members said in the context, it meant that it is already infinite
 
So this guy is 5D? Or did you specifically mean a type of immortality based on HD existence? Sorry for needing clarification.

Also, I'm still not buying it yet, cause SD already mentioned a bunch of things regarding why the resistances may not really cut it unless we're talking something clearly stated as well above baseline.
 
I was talking about Madoka's "higher realm" arguments. Spider's true body doesn't exist in the mortal universe much like Madoka's, and yes, immortality

If you can quote where he mentioned it, It would be appreciated, because he himself said, and I quote

"Not much I could argue here, unless the heart doesn't have Acausality ig"

There was no direct response from her to my arguments, so I don't understand where you are getting this from.

The argument for Madoka is that her potency is better, which it isn't, SD said two multiverses, Wizard101 is 3 bare minimum. So her range and potency is not better than what Wizard101 can dish out.
 
What part of what we said suggested Spider is 5D? If he was 5D he'd be Low 1-C not 2-A.

Spider negs pretty much everything Madoka has been said to do too. He even has spells which are shown to protect against the sort of thing Skill Seal does in the first place.
 
Okay, makes sense. I was specifically referring to UKG'S case, my mistake.

I won't say anything about who I vote yet, for reason I already stated earlier in the previous replies.

P.s. tbf, anything presented as lore can be considered "flowery" if without extra context.
 
One more thing. I'm not saying Spidey can't beat Madoka. Right now, looking at his long-ass list of hax including certain key abilities, not only do I think he can....I feel like it's a stomp in his favor, as most of his hax seem to be far above baseline 2A potency.
 
While Zenkai has a point that I'm saying Madoka doesn't hold any ability advantages, you're ignoring why I said Madoka still wins or incon. Specifically her intellect advantage and omniprescence slight speed advtange. Because otherwise, when it comes to abilities, she too nulls his abilities passively, and every ability argument you can make can also apply to Madoka.

But since Ben says he has a CRT that could change that, I offered to close the thread momentarily.

Checking the heart page, it actually doesn't have acausality. So, now another argument is, she takes or haxes the heart, forcing Spider down to his other form and wins that way.

TL;DR Madoka either wins or incons.
 
Madoka wins due having bigger cosmology. He lacks of range to affect the enterity of Madoka abstraction.

I will make the "Endless equals Infinity" thread tomorrow.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
No, there's a difference between finite infinity and infinite infinity.
Click to expand...
A multiverse is regarded as being an indeterminate set of universes. 2-A means that there are infinite universes inside the cosmology of the verse. That alone means that there are infinite sets of universes, which means infinite multiverses. It would be one thing if we were talking about different things, such as infinite 3D vs infinite 4D, but we're not.

Either way, Wizard101 already has endless timelines, which expand endlessly, which include the Spiral, the Reverie, and the Other Side. I fail to see how Madoka's cosmology could be superior in that respect.
 
If the individual timeline wasn't endless, it wouldn't be low 2-C, it's a requirement. But other than that, yeah, pre any CRT the Wizard 101 verse is larger. However, AP isn't the part that matters here.

Unless you think High 3-A is the same as 2-A, no. @Strym
 
Outside of Ben and I, I'm 100% sure no one is reading the reasons for why they are FRAing, from both sides.
 
SomebodyData said:
If the individual timeline wasn't endless, it wouldn't be low 2-C, it's a requirement. But other than that, yeah, pre any CRT the Wizard 101 verse is larger. However, AP isn't the part that matters here.
Unless you think High 3-A is the same as 2-A, no. @Strym
Click to expand...
I'm not talking about indivual timelines being endless in size if that was what you were getting at. I'm saying that there's an endless amount of timelines.

I'm fine with closing the thread at this point since it doesn't seem like there's much on-topic discussion being had aside from you, me and Zenkai. If you're interested though we could continue this in private, such as through a Message Wall or Discord.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Honestly I don't think spider can counter her omnipresence across 2 2-A realms, so is a stomp
Click to expand...
Spider's the conceptual embodiment of Shadow Magic which is already omnipresent across 2-A realms but even aside from that I plan to CRT (eventually) to officially state he has omnipresence on his profile.
 
SomebodyData said:
While Zenkai has a point that I'm saying Madoka doesn't hold any ability advantages, you're ignoring why I said Madoka still wins or incon. Specifically her intellect advantage and omniprescence slight speed advtange. Because otherwise, when it comes to abilities, she too nulls his abilities passively, and every ability argument you can make can also apply to Madoka.
But since Ben says he has a CRT that could change that, I offered to close the thread momentarily.

Checking the heart page, it actually doesn't have acausality. So, now another argument is, she takes or haxes the heart, forcing Spider down to his other form and wins that way.

TL;DR Madoka either wins or incons.
Click to expand...
Well shit, I somehow forgot that Goddoka's Omnipresence and Omniscience was still an important thing. F**k I'm stupid :p
 
The Chaos Heart profile definitely needs to be updated. Currently the profile only lists the Conceptual Manipulation which isn't a valid interpretation of what the heart actually gives Spider. I'll be updating it soon.
 
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