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Truth FMA Downgrade

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Alright, going to be blatant here. Truth's tiering and some of his haxes seem to be very unjustified to say the least.

First thing first, him even being Low 2-C in the first place. When under any circumstance have we ever accepted someone being tier 2 here just by being an entire universe? Because if I didn't know any better, any being that's identified as a universal omnipresent would be able to qualify for that, which obviously isn't the case. And because I feel someone will bring this up, no, Zamasu is not a counter-argument for this since he actually has evidence of becoming one with space-time to qualify for his Low 2-C (and eventual 2-C) rating. Truth on the other hand isn't given that same luxary. All he is known for is existing as the universe. That's it. Not only is he not a fighter, but he's never established as being one with an entire space-time continuum like the former example is from what I recall from the series. He's literally just a textbook example of what an Omnipresent is.

Next issue is his Conceptual Manipulation. Where does this come from exactly? His page gives absolutely no details into this or what his concept hax exactly entails. But more to the point, there isn't a single point where Truth demonstrates this. He doesnt create concepts, nor does he destroy them. If all the basis to this is him existing as the universe and everything inside it, we've already had this song and dance of how existing as concepts (if even wanting to push this that far since no such statement of him existing as any concept is listed) doesn't grant you conceptual hax. Not without considerable evidence anyway.

But the biggest issue here of all would probably have to be his Omniscience. Don't get me wrong. If this was Nigh-Omniscience, it would be much better approrpriate and easily far more acceptable. But a series with a single universal-sized cosmology granting you Omniscience? Yeah no. First of all, the FMA Universe is never stated to be infinite, so it literally having infinite knowledge already seems fishy. Second, we have many verses here that are FAR bigger than FMA's cosmology, scoping from a dozen universes to trillions.. None of the characters there have anything more than Nigh-Omniscience. Even those who are Knowledge as a concept incarnate aren't given full on Omniscience.

If there's anymore issues, anyone's welcome to point them out. But these 3 are the main bread and butter.
 
I'd like to point out that our Omniscience page states.

Omniscience is the state of having all knowledge, or in other words, knowing everything. A character that is omniscient knows everything that their opponent is going to do before they do it, and exactly what to do to win any fight. An omniscient character is still capable of being overpowered and losing, however. Also knowledge of other fictions is not a requirement for omniscience, so a character that knows everything about their own fictional franchise is considered to be omniscient.

So long as Truth knows everything in the FMA verse, he qualifies. There being a single universe cosmology or it not being infinite in size means nothing going by our page description. For your Uxie example, if it knows everything about the Pokemon verse then it should have full blown Omniscience.
 
I disagree with downgrading him since he literally is the universe itself. It isn't just abstract universal omnipresence. Zamasu merged with space and time but he is space and time. Though he migh be 3-A if the universe isn't treated as 4D.

I agree with removing Conceptual Manipulation if there's no supporting evidence.

I disagree with removing Omniscience because he's literally everything in verse.
 
I do think his Intelligence should be reworded if their is no statement that the FMA universe is infinite. He may know everything in the verse but he can't hold infinite knowledge if the universe isn't infinite in size.
 
EmperorRorepme said:
I disagree with downgrading him since he literally is the universe itself. It isn't just abstract universal omnipresence. Zamasu merged with space and time but he is space and time. Though he migh be 3-A if the universe isn't treated as 4D.
A single statement without any feat to prove it isn't really enough to that Tier.

He isn't some abstract entity like how we put it in the page, he is just an omnipresent being in his universe, since he is everything.

All I can see him getting is "unknown"

I find it funny that a lot of verses goes through hell to prove such tiers with this one being "he is everything so he is universal" and get it accepted.

As for the omniscience, a minor nitpick but he was surprised that Ed chose the right answer and decided to trade Al for his own Door, if he was truly omniscient he would have known from the very beginning that was going to happen so I agree with the nigh-omniscience but for different reasons
 
Also, Regenerationn (Unknown), Immortality (Types 3, 4 and 8), Space-Time Manipulation, Life Manipulation, Death Manipulation need to go too, IIRC he never showed those abilities and while Inmortality type 8 has a somewhat standing ground it's just a big supposition
 
A statement of him being the universe isn't enough by your standards. It was deemed enough which is why he got that tier. Slight nitpick there's actually two statements of him being the universe and the entire world. Don't know how you interpret this as merely "he is everything so he is universal".

I'm not sure if we should take him "being surprised" as actual fact seeing as he is Ed as well.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
So long as Truth knows everything in the FMA verse, he qualifies. There being a single universe cosmology or it not being infinite in size means nothing going by our page description. For your Uxie example, if it knows everything about the Pokemon verse then it should have full blown Omniscience.
With all due respect Lord, if Omniscience was as easily given out as that, Uxie or at least Arceus would have been granted Omniscience a long time ago for Uxie literally being the concept of knowledge incarnate.

Either that, or the description for Omniscience is misleading and needs to be changed. Having limitless knowledge is all apart of being an omniscient from what I see at least and if the verse in question isn't infinite, then there's only a finite number of knowledge that is accessible.
 
EmperorRorepme said:
I disagree with downgrading him since he literally is the universe itself. It isn't just abstract universal omnipresence. Zamasu merged with space and time but he is space and time. Though he migh be 3-A if the universe isn't treated as 4D.
"Being the universe itself" isn't a reason to disagree since that reasoning is being disputed here. Like I said, Truth being the universe is simply him being an omnipresent. It's a state of being. He didnt create the universe, he doesnt stablize it or anything that actually requires power of that scope.

In fact, given that Truth holds no dominion over anything that doesn't have to do with Alchemy, it stands to reason that he doesn't even have dominion over everything in the FMA universe. Just authority over Alchemy via equivalant exchange.
 
I know that's what's being disputed. I disagree. Being the universe should warrant that tier. As it does for Zamasu and a slightly different case but the same principle, The Cosmic Imaginatio. Why are we assuming "being the universe" is some metaphoric and abstract meaning resulting in just omnipresence rather then, you know, actually being the universe.

Even in these cases, you don't need to create the universe to be it. Nor does need to hold dominion over everything to be the universe.
 
@ProfessorKukui

Oh don't get me wrong, I understand what your talking about. Clockwork is stated to know everything, sees every possible outcome and what has happened. This includes the Ghost Zone and it's infinite realms and the normal universe which is also infinite (in Danny Phantom). Yet he is only Nigh-Omniscient... Again, I understand what your saying for sure, I'm just going off the description.
 
Tony di bugalu said:
As for the omniscience, a minor nitpick but he was surprised that Ed chose the right answer and decided to trade Al for his own Door, if he was truly omniscient he would have known from the very beginning that was going to happen so I agree with the nigh-omniscience but for different reasons
I never got Truth being surprised. It was more like Truth was allowing Edward to answer what is true.

Throughout the series, Truth was pretty kind to Edward. In its own way. It knew the truth of what answer Ed would come to.

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"Multiverse level+ (The Cosmic Imagination was said to be reality itself, which has been depicted as an endless sea of universes, and has additionally been cited as being infinite in scale, as well as a "Crazily Huge Infinity". It is said that any being who learns to tap into The Cosmic Imaginations power can create and destroy whatever they wish. "Sleepers", beings who tap into the power of the Cosmic Imagination can create and maintain entire universes, with the last human in existence keeping the multiverse in existence without even knowing it"

I dont know The Cosmic Imagination, but his justification for 2-A is already much much different than what is used for Low 2-C Truth. From what this reads, he's more than just a sentient Multiverse. His power not only allows others to be able to create/destroy "anything they wish", but Sleepers create and maintain entire universes and even keep the Multiverse in existence passively.

Truth doesn't do anything except living as the FMA universe.
 
Sure I agree it has more justification and complexities but it was just another example of a sentient cosmic construct. I don't see why we shouldn't take what Truth said about itself at face value rather then just taking it as omnipresence. He doesn't say he exists everywhere he basically says he is physically everywhere, including the actual characters themselves.
 
From what i recall from the Manga, his conceptual manipulation is supposed to be listed as Law Manipulation, due to him creating the Rules of Equivalent Exchange. So that's actually fine if we switch it, as for the tier I'll make a comment about that later.
 
It's not that we shouldnt take what Truth says at face value. Him being the universe is obvious and just fine. It's more that it shouldn't be scaleable to his AP on that alone.

Like I said before, we have never made a character Tier 2 just by existing as a universal space-time continuum (which btw, this is being assumed for Truth and ignoring the possibility that he only exists across the universe physically). They usually have more backing to their tier 2 rather than existing as everything.
 
Honestly I think the Low 2-C is fine if he really is the universes space and time, he should have its durability and it's energy. The rest I agree with though.
 
I mean the The Cosmic Imaginatio is 2-A for being a multiverse. It grants the Wizards abilities but nothing on a 2-A scale. The last human maintaining the multiverse is because to exist the multiverse must be perceived so it isn't an AP related thing.
 
I'm neutral on this if he's literally physically one with the Universe, then I personally believe he should be universal. He's not someone who's physically less than universal, but his conscious is one with the Universe. Neutral on whether that's 3-A or Low 2-C however.

I'm also fine if Conceptual Manipulation is simply Law Manipulation since he's the one who created the laws of equivalent exchange. Speaking of which, that also implies he created all energy in the Universe, so that seems easily Universal.

And as for Omnipresence. I know someone brought up Arceus, but I recall there are examples of him being not Omniscient. Like he didn't know Marcus was the one who plotted his downfall instead of Damos. And he did get surprised attacked. Truth on the other hand, I don't remember anything that contradicts his Omniscience and he basically just did the typical "Answering questions with questions" to test honest.
 
T.C.I literally allows Sleepers to create and maintain universes when tapping into his power, and as for the last sleeper bit, if it was AP related why would it be included under his AP?
 
The Truth is also stated to be "space" along with the Universe, that seems pretty cut clear to me. His immortalities also come from being apart of everything in the verse, ideas, concepts, the universe itself. Also though i think Abstract Existence is much more fitting for him as opposed to the immortality.


Mind you Kama from Fate was orginally upgraded to low 2-C for the same reason. She's stated multiple times to be the universe itself, which apparently is a low 2-C feat.
 
I second thought, I personally don't see anything against Low 2-C.
 
The Prince of Counters said:
His immortalities also come from being apart of everything in the verse, ideas, concepts, the universe itself. Also though i think Abstract Existence is much more fitting for him as opposed to the immortality.
Are these literally stated?
 
Not directly stated, no. But it's heavily implied, The Truth's entire existence is that he's meant to be one with everything, that's the narrative of Full Metal Alchemist as a whole. At the very least he'd get them from being one with the universe and Equivalent Exchange, which is a concept / idea / law.
 
If he's literally "One with everything" I think Low 2-C sounds pretty cut and dry.
 
Like I said I am fine with Low 2-C as well, it is mostly the immortalities and conceptual manip that take me fore a loop without evidence. But the equivalent exchange thing seems fine but as Law manip.
 
Yeah the Immortalities can be replaced with Abstract Existence. Bt the way, The Truth should have type 9 immortality, his true self is what lies beyond the Gate of Truth.
 
Also the Truth needs a few abilities, such as mind manipulation ( can inject one's memory without a massive amount of information all at once. ) Information Manipulation and Information Analysis ( can forcibly show others a massive amount of information in a short span of time by pulling them through the Gate ) BFR ( Can pull people into The Gate of Truth, or send them to a hell-like Dimension ) Abstract Existence ( Type:1 Is the universe itself and one with everything, such as The Law of Equivalent Exchange. ) Law manipulation ( created the Laws of Equivalent Exchange and enforces it.) Non-Corporal ( Truth's true body exists beyond the Gate, with his Avatar being Metaphysical.) Immortality type: 9 ( Truths true self exists beyond the Gate of Truth. )
 
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