• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Pokémon Creation Mythos CRT (Type 2 Concepts inside)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Everything12

Everything12

The Heavenly Fount
VS Battles
Administrator
7,142
4,657
I want to start this off by saying that I know their is another CRT but it is dead and I think these additions are quite important regarding to matches that the subjects are frequently involved in, so I decided its best to get this over and done with. This is also why other additions for the Creation Trio will not be included, so that the discussion and subsequent approval/denial can happen quicker.

Lastly I would also like it if the discussion had no derailing, such as how this affects current and future matches, how this effects the Top 5 Strongest thread, the composite nature of Pokémon, how this allows them the beat certain verses, and other stuff of that nature, I just want this to be a discussion about the bellow mentioned additions and if they are accepted or denied.

In the beginning, there was only a churning turmoil of Chaos
At the heart of chaos, where all things became one, appeared an Egg.
Having tumbled from the vortex, the Egg gave rise to the Original One.
From itself, two beings the Original One did make.
Time started to spin. Space began to expand.
From itself again, three living things the Original One did make.
The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be.
The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be.

The world created, the Original One took to unyielding sleep...
This, as some people no doubt know by now, is a tale about the Creation of the Pokémon World. It will be the primary source of all proposed additions of this CRT. Also anything that mentioned the duo also involved Giratina, its just he isn't mentioned in the myth so I didn't talk about him while referencing it.

Type 2 Concepts

First things first, from my understanding, the difference between Type 3 and Type 2 Concepts is that while both are Abstract in nature Type 3 are linked together with the physical form of their concept, thus even if you can't interact with the Type 3 Concept of Space you can still destroy it by destroying the physical Multiverse it governs.

The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be.

I believe this points towards the Concepts of Space and Time, that were born when Palkia and Dialga were created, predating the existence, this is because the above text clearly states the pair, who are the mentioned two beings, actively created the physical world. This means that Concepts of Space and Time existed before the Multiverse and so even if you destroyed the Pokémon Mutliverse, and thus all things that carry a aspect of Space and Time, the Concepts would still exist after as they existed before, and so to would the pair that embody those Concepts.

The world created, the Original One took to unyielding sleep...

I also think this line being after the Original One created the duo and after they wished matter into being could be additional proof that Arceus only created the pair and they created the World after the Concepts had already existed.

Has been completely rejected

Accepted:

Rejected: Elizhaa, TriforcePower1, Executor N0, Lavtop, EmperorRorepme, GyroNutz, The Causality, Adem Warlock69, Zeifyl, The Axiom of Virgo

Immunity to Soul Manipulation

The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be.

understand that the Creation Trio did in fact have this ability once and it was removed, but I disagree with the removal. First off their was questions of if Spirit did in fact equal Souls, I think this can be answered by who created Spirit, with the three living things being Uxie, Azelf, and Mespirit, who embody Knowledge, Willpower, and Emotions. With this knowledge its likely to assume that the Spirit is a immaterial object that all living things have that gives them these three aspects, and at this point their is little difference between a Spirit and what we assume a Soul is.

Another argument against the Immunity of Souls is that the Lake Guardians gave the duo Spirits after the fact, their is not only no proof of this but I believe that their is proof against this. This proof being Cyrus' plan, Cyprus planned to remove the world of Spirit because he hated it, thus he planned to have one or both of the two destroy then recreate the universe as a world without Spirit, this destruction was very likely to not affect the pair so how could he have a world without Spirit if Dialga and Palkia existed with a Spirit. Also the Lake Guardian aren't the only ones shown to control Palkia and Dialga, the Red Chain which was created from the Lake Guardians is also able to, its logical to assume the same power which freed them from the Red Chain was what was used to create it. I very much doubt that Cryus would use the Red Chain if it operated through Spirit and I doubt controlling Spirit would be able to forcefully summon the duo.

Has been Accepted and added

Accepted: Adem Warlock69, The God of Procrastinatio, ProfessorKukui4Life, GyroNutz, Niarobi (Formerly Hadou), Dragopentling, The real cal howard, Rose of Ragnarok, PlozAlcachaz, Zeifyl, Overlord775, The Axiom of Virgo, Mr. Bambu, ZephyrosOmega

Neutral: Elizhaa, TriforcePower1

Rejected:

Abstract Existence Type 1

This is simple, as mentioned before the pair existed before Matter, thus their true selves have no physical or spiritual form. They also embody the Space and Time they create as shown by their Large Size Type 9 and Nigh-Omniprescence. Thus they can only be effected by affecting the Concept they embody, Concepts which are very much Abstract.

Accepted: Adem Warlock69, Niarobi (Formerly Hadou), The real cal howard, Dragopentling, PlozAlcachaz, Overlord775, The Axiom of Virgo, WHYNAUT, StrymULTRA, Luckyfu, ZephyrosOmega

Neutral: Elizhaa, TriforcePower1, ProfessorKukui4Life, Rose of Ragnarok, NeoZex6399, DarkDragonMedeus

Rejected: PaChi2, Kepekley23, Sigurd Snake in The Eye, Mr. Bambu
 
Messing with time (non conceptual time) turned Dialga into Primal Dialga.

AE type 1 its not.
 
The tower of time thing is directly contradicted by the main games where Dialga's heathbeat is what makes time flow
 
Mythos dont beat "feats" or showings in my book, Im afraid.

Even in a pokedex.

The justification in the OP is bad for AE1, anyway.

"They also embody the Space and Time they create as shown by their Large Size Type 9 and Nigh-Omniprescence. Thus they can only be effected by affecting the Concept they embody, Concepts which are very much Abstract"

This needs proof. Like, actual proof. "They embody time and space and therefore you need to affect the concept of time and space" is bad reasoning.

Heck, Giratina can grab them no problem and the multiverse doesnt implode.
 
Overlord775 said:
@Elizhaa

It's not because they precede a concept, it's because they procede reality itself
Click to expand...
Oh, I don't think it is enough to prove Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 either.
 
@Pachi

Not when it's repeatedly and repeatedly stated to work in a way

Also:

1. Giratina is the embodiment of the concept of antimatter

2. He grabbed on-to their physical forms
 
Giratina grabs their Avatar, its the same as with Arceus and its Abstract Existence despite its Avatars showing in the manga and anime. And as mentioned in the text above that we very much use for other abilities, their true forms predate Matter.

And I thought the difference between Type 3 and Type 2 is that Type 3 it linked to everything that takes part in the Concept so if you destroyed the multiverse you would destroy the Concept of Space, but the Creation Trio, and thus their Concepts that came forth at the same time as them, predate and created the rest of existence so destroying everything shouldn't affect the Concepts as they existed without everything before so they should do again.

Also this isn't from the Pokédex.
 
I think there's a bit of a mistakes about that."Predates Reality" is not really enough reason to have Type 2 CM. The whole point of Type 2 CM is the ability to control some metaphysical universal structure that exists beyond the physical realm, our normal level of existence.

Just being prior to reality is not really a reason for that. It may help to justify Type 2, but it can't be the main basis. Even a franchise with multiple plans of existence having been created simultaneously can have Type 2 CM if the nature between the levels of reality guarantees it.
 
Im neutral to most of this, but the immunity to soul manipulation needs to be added back.

The Creation Trio predate the existence and creation of the lake trio, who created spirit. That means when the CT came, there wasnt any spirit to begin with for them. There's absolutely no reason or basis to assume that the Lake Trio just suddenly slapped on spirits to all 3 of them. Especially since the Lake Trio explicitly need to be combined to affect even one member of the CT at all. Suggesting they were able to, for whatever reason you can think of, give all 3 of them souls is purely speculative and completely contradicts their standing in comparison to the CT.
 
Even if they Gave them Souls, they would stil have Resistance to Soul manipulation,As they don't need those Souls, So if Someone destroys their Soul, nothing would happen.
 
I think this comes from a previous CRT where Kep said for a concept to be type 2, it has to predate all reality by default. There'd need to be more solid evidence to make the jump to type 2 conceptual manipulation.

Although I 100% agree with the soul resistance, if they didn't already have it.
 
Looking at the thread Elizhaa linked, I can't exactly tell why they don't have Abstract Existence Type 1. Does anyone know why it was changed?
 
Everything12 said:
Looking at the thread Elizhaa linked, I can't exactly tell why they don't have Abstract Existence Type 1. Does anyone know why it was changed?
Click to expand...
Oh, wrong link, my bad; I updated it.
 
I think the part of my thread talking about predating and wishing Matter into being disproves the reason why the Abstract Existence was taking away, as it proves both them and their Concepts don't need the physical world to continue existing.

And if they don't have a physical or spiritual form, as they predate both Matter and Spirit, then their only form back then would be the Concepts they brought into creation and from which they gain their Large Size and Nigh-Omniprescence.
 
"Also, if we assume Type 1 is a thing, while Dialga and Palkia might not be killed by having their physical avatars killed, it's important to note that even then you wouldn't need to mess with the concepts of time and space to kill them. Their avatars' destruction would lead to the world getting unstable again and time and space merging. Arceus would need to intervene and split the concepts again in order for Dialga and Palkia to revive.

So it's sort of a non-Type 1 Type 1 even if we assume it's the case, because you don't need to be able to mess with concepts to affect or kill them off. Meaning it's not Type 1."
 
Said idea was debunked by their canonically being more than one avatar in existence. US/UM has Cyrus's and the one in Ultra Space. Murdering an avatar doesn't do crap to the true form.
 
Where's this destroying their avatar leads to the destruction of Space-Time come from? As in where in the Games, Anime, or Manga is it from?
 
Nowhere. In fact, in the manga, even having the smallest facet of Giratina allows you to come back from death.
 
What it's explained in the OP isn't a feat of Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation as the other peoples are already said above.
 
No, I know that, I was more asking if predating the physical and spiritual aspects of existence meant that destroying them won't led to a chain reaction that destroys as is a characteristic of Type 3 so the Aspects that they embody and Arceus created should be Type 2 instead.

I wasn't asking for Manipulation, besides Arceus, and more clarification of the Type of Concepts that they embody.
 
Nope, the aspect will not change only due to that, you need feat of completly transcend the concept, Nil is still type 3 even if she predate her "concept"
 
I mean it doesn't make sense to me that a Concept that was doing fine without the rest of existence before would be destroyed without it later, but whatever.
 
  • I mean, what type are they right now? They should easily be type 1.
  • They have avatars and the avatars can exist alongside one another.
  • Capturing their physical forms still leaves their true selves intact and we see so.
  • Arceus creating a new one of the Trio involved him resetting a universe.
  • The only time any of them were close to death was Dialga and that directly involved messing with time itself to do anything.
  • Affecting their true selves through their avatars involves Arceus in some way or another.
Sounds like type 1 to me.
 
They are Type None as in Type 3 was axed so they don't have Abstract Existence.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Everything12
  • Locked
Arceus Qualitative Upgrade
2
Replies
58
Views
14K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
Noarasia
  • Locked
Giratina 5-Dimensional ?
Replies
16
Views
2K
Shiraito983
Shiraito983
Everything12
  • Locked
Arceus Nonduality/Transduality Type 2?
Replies
38
Views
4K
Everything12
Everything12
  • Locked
The One You Shouldn't Have Killed CRT
Replies
24
Views
1K
Perequeliri993
Perequeliri993
Lesser_Goddess_Alexia
  • Locked
Tensura Web Novel Revision : Bring Back Rimuru's Non-Duality Type 1
2
Replies
62
Views
9K
Meli_Tempest
Meli_Tempest
Back
Top