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Pokémon Creation Mythos CRT (Type 2 Concepts inside)
- Thread starter Everything12
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NopeThe real cal howard said:
I'am Sorry.
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Sigh. Has anyone brought up the statement from the Japanese Pokemon website referring to Giratina that says he holds no concept of space or time? I think this would contextually be referring to how he is exempt from Dialga and Palkia. At the very least, if he is exempt from the concepts of space and time, I'm not sure how you would go about trying to justify how him and those of similar nature to him aren't abstract.
Before anyone tries arguing the whole "antimatter" thing, I'll mention that there's an interview with the director clarifying that when they said Giratina is the embodiment of antimatter, "antimatter" is supposed to refer to an antithetical counterpart to space-time.
Before anyone tries arguing the whole "antimatter" thing, I'll mention that there's an interview with the director clarifying that when they said Giratina is the embodiment of antimatter, "antimatter" is supposed to refer to an antithetical counterpart to space-time.
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- Thread starter
- #84
I don't think I have ever seen that picture before in any other Pokémon CRT or Versus thread, but I think it is good proof of Palkia and Dialga's Concepts and perhaps some other things involving Giratina separately.
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Didn't he get stuck in a time loop for a while
- 6,987
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- Thread starter
- #86
I guess Dialga Time Manip is just that good. Though if it hasn't already, I'd prefer if one of the Wiki's Japanese readers could check to see if the translations right, just so it's 100% certain.
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YesSigurd Snake in The Eye said:
But even with this, people can still argue with "Dialga can affect people who hold no Time space concept!" instead of treat this as an Anti feat
Even if i don't like the former, it can easily be accepted as such in the wiki.
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I mean, Dialga can also time travel to a timeless place and time stop/slow without negative consequenses even though he's time, so his time powers being odd is not an one off thing
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One thing's for sure, unless if there's no readable source material, never trust the anime adaptations for feat depictions 
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Overlord775 said:
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I thought even before this it was just treated as if Dialga's time hax can just work on people who exist outside of time, which Giratina consistently explicitly does. Giratina being affected by it would just make Dialga's time hax more impressive, that isn't really a contradiction to Giratina's nature.
By the way, I don't know how much I'm trusted or whatever, but I translated that myself awhile back and got someone else who I know knows Japanese better than me to double-translate it, so the translation itself is fine. And I do think it has been brought up in a thread in the past, I just don't think anyone said much of it. I found it from something Cal posted in a thread probably like a year and a half or so ago.
By the way, I don't know how much I'm trusted or whatever, but I translated that myself awhile back and got someone else who I know knows Japanese better than me to double-translate it, so the translation itself is fine. And I do think it has been brought up in a thread in the past, I just don't think anyone said much of it. I found it from something Cal posted in a thread probably like a year and a half or so ago.
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- Thread starter
- #92
Well if that's so then I got no reason not to trust it then, so this means that in very least that Palkia and Dialga's Space and Time are almost certainly Conceptual, and the Giratina might be able to get Acausality for lacking the Concept of Space and Time.
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- and Acausality for Arceus too
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Giratina really didn't have Acausality on his page? And also, Giratina's profile mentions how he "embodies antimatter on a conceptual level", yet he still doesn't have Abstract Existence. Odd.
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- Thread starter
- #95
Palkia and Dialga also have they are Space and Time on their profiles but they aren't Abstract either. Also pretty sure that Giratina did have Acausality at one point but it was removed, can't remember why though, something like a lack of evidence.
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Is there any shred of evidence that Dialga and Palkia can only be affected by destroying their abstraction? There's not a single instance where this holds true in any medium.
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That's not a necessary requirement, there's many characters with type 1 AB that don't have showings for that
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The very definition of Type 1 is to be untouchable unless your concept is destroyed. Not being untouchable and only unkillable is Type 2 instead.
From what I have seen, most characters with Type 1 tend to have at least one clear, non-vague piece of evidence putting them there, and if they don't, that just means their profiles are incorrect.
From what I have seen, most characters with Type 1 tend to have at least one clear, non-vague piece of evidence putting them there, and if they don't, that just means their profiles are incorrect.
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- Thread starter
- #100
The Creation Trio's come from the fact that their True Forms are the Concepts of Space/Time/Reverse of the World and lack Matter or Spirit, thus to effect them would require to interact with these Abstractions as they don't have anything else to interact with.
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BTW, for Type 1 Abtract Existance you don't even need conceptual sheninigans, you just need to be abtract in nature
Disembodied Thought is Type 1 because he's a tought
Dr. Gii is Type 1 because he's a possibility
Lucetta Quetzl is Type 1 because she's a song
Disembodied Thought is Type 1 because he's a tought
Dr. Gii is Type 1 because he's a possibility
Lucetta Quetzl is Type 1 because she's a song
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> The Creation Trio's come from the fact that their True Forms are the Space/Time/Reverse of the World and lack Matter or Spirit, thus to effect them would require to interact with these Abstractions.
At no point do they ever show the ability to regenerate or resurrect from their concept (Type 2), let alone Type 1. Embodying a concept no longer warrants any type of AE.
> BTW, for Type 1 Abtract Existance you don't even need conceptual sheninigans, you just need to be abtract in nature
First of all, thoughts and ideas are conceptual in nature by default. Second, Dialga and Palkia have never demonstrated the requirements for Type 1 anywhere.
At no point do they ever show the ability to regenerate or resurrect from their concept (Type 2), let alone Type 1. Embodying a concept no longer warrants any type of AE.
> BTW, for Type 1 Abtract Existance you don't even need conceptual sheninigans, you just need to be abtract in nature
First of all, thoughts and ideas are conceptual in nature by default. Second, Dialga and Palkia have never demonstrated the requirements for Type 1 anywhere.
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Actually they have, in the anime they were shown as masses of cosmic energy
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Scans?
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There's no evidence of that being anything other than non-corporeality.
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They are described as the concept of space and time
they precede spirits and matter, while being clearly shown to not normally have a physical form
they had to be forced in-to physical forms to be controlled
this is enought to warrant Type 1 Abtract Existence
they precede spirits and matter, while being clearly shown to not normally have a physical form
they had to be forced in-to physical forms to be controlled
this is enought to warrant Type 1 Abtract Existence
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If Palkia and Dialga just are the concepts of space and time, I'm not sure where you're getting that there is a single instance where the two have been threatened without space and time being threatened, too. Threatening them, by proxy, threatens all space and time.
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> They are described as the concept of space and time
This never happened. They embody those concepts, they aren't literally them.
> they precede spirits and matter, while being clearly shown to not normally have a physical form
Killing their incorporeal state isn't required to defeat or affect them, meaning there is ny way they can be Type 1.
> they had to be forced in-to physical forms to be controlled
They were brought into their physical forms because their non-corporeal forms are just unconscious blobs, actually.
> If Palkia and Dialga just are the concepts of space and time, I'm not sure where you're getting that there is a single instance where the two have been threatened without space and time being threatened, too. Threatening them, by proxy, threatens all space and time.
There is not a single instance of this in the anime, manga, or games. In PMD, Dialga was going to be erased by a time paradox and had to be saved by Arceus.
This never happened. They embody those concepts, they aren't literally them.
> they precede spirits and matter, while being clearly shown to not normally have a physical form
Killing their incorporeal state isn't required to defeat or affect them, meaning there is ny way they can be Type 1.
> they had to be forced in-to physical forms to be controlled
They were brought into their physical forms because their non-corporeal forms are just unconscious blobs, actually.
> If Palkia and Dialga just are the concepts of space and time, I'm not sure where you're getting that there is a single instance where the two have been threatened without space and time being threatened, too. Threatening them, by proxy, threatens all space and time.
There is not a single instance of this in the anime, manga, or games. In PMD, Dialga was going to be erased by a time paradox and had to be saved by Arceus.
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There's also the fact that they can be knocked out by anything in the franchise.
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@GoPKepekley23 said:
Blatant game mechanics and that's only their physical forms too
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>In PMD, Dialga was going to be erased by a time paradox and had to be saved by Arceus.
Can you stop bringing this point up? It's been debunked multiple times. That was Primal Dialga who was going to be time paradoxed, not normal Dialga. The weakness of the former doesn't apply to the latter.
Can you stop bringing this point up? It's been debunked multiple times. That was Primal Dialga who was going to be time paradoxed, not normal Dialga. The weakness of the former doesn't apply to the latter.
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> They created space, time and matter while in that disembodies state, so they can act like that
They didn't create anything other than physical matter. Arceus created time and space and Dialga and Palkia came into existence as embodiments of those aspects of Arceus' creation, but gain no abstract abilities from it.
> Nah, Cyrus didn't even use portals in the anime, he just forced them down in to physical forms
So? That doesn't change my point.
> The lake trio were also shown as formless masses of energy in the games
So?
> MD Dialga just being time paradoxed doesn't make sense because the CT were explicidy stated to precede time and space everywhere else, so it's clear PIS
The CT doesn't predate time and space, they came into existence alongside space and time, specifically as embodiments of said aspects of Arceus' creation.
They completely lack Type 1 showings to begin with, so the "PIS" card can't be pulled here to negate the anti-feat.
They didn't create anything other than physical matter. Arceus created time and space and Dialga and Palkia came into existence as embodiments of those aspects of Arceus' creation, but gain no abstract abilities from it.
> Nah, Cyrus didn't even use portals in the anime, he just forced them down in to physical forms
So? That doesn't change my point.
> The lake trio were also shown as formless masses of energy in the games
So?
> MD Dialga just being time paradoxed doesn't make sense because the CT were explicidy stated to precede time and space everywhere else, so it's clear PIS
The CT doesn't predate time and space, they came into existence alongside space and time, specifically as embodiments of said aspects of Arceus' creation.
They completely lack Type 1 showings to begin with, so the "PIS" card can't be pulled here to negate the anti-feat.
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> Can you stop bringing this point up? It's been debunked multiple times. That was Primal Dialga who was going to be time paradoxed, not normal Dialga. The weakness of the former doesn't apply to the latter.
Dialga losing control of its ability to manipulate time and going into a mad rampage doesn't translate to Dialga losing its abstract existence, Kukui. That makes absolutely no logical sense.
Dialga losing control of its ability to manipulate time and going into a mad rampage doesn't translate to Dialga losing its abstract existence, Kukui. That makes absolutely no logical sense.
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I question myself about something, if a verse (here pokemon) state that some characters predate time and space, if they are still time paradoxed, does we count this as a pis or treat this as the fact that predate time don't make you immune to time stuff in the verse setting?
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It does when time itself was being corrupted by what was happening in MD.Kepekley23 said:
Keep in mind, I dont care if the AE isn't legit. I just dislike the reasoning your using to disagree.
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As usual every Pokemon anti feat is PIS from what I frequently read.
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Palkia and Dialga did create things in that Abstract existence its mentioned that "The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be." With the Two obviously being Palkia and DialgaKepekley23 said:
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