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Skill Debate: Yujiro vs Hayato

Alright, so here i go. Yujiro, basically the composite Bakiverse. Thanks to this, i'll not only be refering to his skill feats but also to the skill feats and techniques he upscales to.

First the main stuff. Dude mastered every martial art that exists and even ones that existed centuries ago (implicitly saying he never got to have actual contact with them), and masters even martial arts that need more than a century of hard training to fully master with a glance at them being used in battle. Even ones that need extreme body control, such as Xiao Lee (it's explained how it works here and you can see it being used in this fight, i recommend reading it all), are flawlessly mastered by Yujiro in a few seconds of observation. Yujiro's pressure points are so precise he can make people faint with a slight tap. He's so skilled the first person that ever managed to touch him was Motobe , another martial arts genius like everyone on the Bakiverse. The likes of 13yo Baki could already flawlessly predict the movements of masters of diverse martial arts, Yujiro not only massively upscales from that but also has his own feat of predicting an entire fight based on the stance of the fighters. 15yo Baki was considered the absolute king of the Tokyo Dome Underground Arena, where even the most "average" of fighters effortlessly curbstomped Rickson Gracie in skill (who, in the Bakiverse, has a 700 winstreak in professional fighting). 18yo Baki could dodge attacks similarly to Yasuri, that is, with movement so minimal it seemed like the attacks were phasing through him. 18yo Baki could also do this while in Yujiro's benda that makes blood come through all your body openings, while also making all your blood go to your brain, basically ******* you up immensely. Baki is also the maker of many other extremely skillful feats i'm forgetting as of rn because i'm not a machine that can perfectly remember more than 800 chapters of people beating each other up.

About the other characters Yujiro upscales from, we got people such as Retsu Kaioh, Doppo Orochi, Goki Shibukawa, Musashi Miyamoto, and some others.

Doppo Orochi is known as "the sun of karate" and "god of war", being a 10th Dan in the Shinshinkai Karate style he created himself. His analytical prediction is so perfect he could see through Dorian's hypnosis that makes the other fighter fight against an extremely weaker Dorian that doesn't actually exist. In reality, the opponent is just fighting against the air. He was affected by the hypnosis, but his AP was so good that even then it worked, defeating the real Dorian in the process. Orochi is a user of the technique "Sangan", created centuries ago. It requires perfect control of the eyes' sinew, as such it's extremely hard to utilize. Doppo Orochi is also the creator of the technique he defines as a "perfect Seiken". Because, even if he did that move thousands of times everyday of his life for the past 50 years, he recognized it would never be a truly perfect Seiken (medium punch shot from the waist, one of the basic karate moves). The Seiken, for him, was only a 99.99999999... (get, like, 4 or 5 paragraphs of nines here) % version of the true Seiken punch, the Bodhisattva Fist he created. This can be seen here(6:30 to 9:10, i couldn't find the manga scans, sorry) and other feats i'm forgetting as of rn.

Kaku Kaioh is the creator of the Xiao Lee style. The dude not only has mastered Xiao Lee, what is obviously extremely difficult for what i said earlier, he also knows many forms of Chinese Kenpo not even the likes of Retsu Kaioh have ever seen before, Retsu Kaioh being probably the 2nd best Chinese Kenpo master of the verse. If that wasn't enough, he has trained Chinese Kenpo for the last 100+ years of his life, obtaining the "ultimate martial arts skill". Dude is 10-C physically and can fight evenly with Yujiro himself.

Goki Shibukawa is a master of Jujutsu, Aiki, and Judo. But trust me, this isn't your average Aikido. Motobe claims that in the last 100 years, fewer than 10 martial artists have mastered true Aiki, and that Shibukawa is the first to utilize it in combat, having fought for Japan in actual wars in the past. His knowledge on human anatomy is great to the point he can do stuff like this (3:40) and this(right at the start). This Aiki works based on inner ki and as such can do stuff like this (5:45)

Musashi Miyamoto knows all the sword styles that existed on his era, and is, well, Musashi Miyamoto. The dude can predict the moves of people like Baki even if they didn't show any physical sign that they will do it (breathing pattern, muscle tension, etc). Musashi is so damn skilled at swordmanship that he can cut without swords in his hands . He has the senses of a real warrior and knows when not to hold back, and is the creator and master of the Niten Ichi-Ryü sword style. It's said that even 9th Dans in Kendo (about 20 people on the whole world) aren't even remotely comparable to Musashi.

And again, there's a bunch of other stuff i'm forgetting rn. This is very limited.
 
I have the links to most of these I can feed into the thread as we discuss each on, and I have links for a few more feats, and just a few more feats in general, a lot of which is upscaling
 
Ok so:

Hayato is already above that, as Hayato can literally beat the entire verse at the same time (If we take Ougi out), so he's already above having learned martial arts. As for the mastery i'd rather not use it here as mastery can mean any level of mastery so best to stick to feats.

Xiao Lee, is something Siegfried does differently, but better. He doesn't do it through relaxation, he does it through prediction, but it works against everything, including weapons, arrows, bullets, grabs etc. As for relaxation, Silicardo can do that to escape grabs. Here are some of Siegfrieds feats:

Can read an opponet's rythym to then use it to become unaffected by attacks and use that power against an opponent

Is unaffected by the attacks of 3 people all at once and defeats them with ease.

His counters work even against sharp weapons. And reflects it in the same spots.

Reflects even arrows.

Pressure points, ugh...i don't think you wanna go there. These guys have death hax via pressure points xD. But they can also render them useless.

Yeah Ougi was the only "rival" Hayato ever had. He also had a "hard fight" against Silicardo (but that guy got PIS and CIS'd into losing against what should be fodder to him so hard that i feel bad for him).

As for prediction, yeah Renka has a similar feat. Remember she's disciple class. Literally insignificant in comparison.

Baki looks insanely fast to people cus of no waste in his movement, yeah, so did Hajime.

Doppo is 10th dan? Yeah Sasaki laughs with his nickname being the 100th dan brawler. xD

Doppo didn't actually see through the illusion he was cought up in it. Besides people start having illusions when trying to predict Berserker's next attack too.

Hayato created this, which is basically a better Sangan.

I need to go take a shower will answer the rest when i get back.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Pressure points, ugh...i don't think you wanna go there. These guys have death hax via pressure points xD. But they can also render them useless.
Click to expand...
To address the pressure point argument, killing with pressure points is actually quite easy due to each one being "an area on the human body that may produce significant pain or other effects when manipulated in a specific manner." I think Yujiro's feat of knocking out Baki is more impressive, as there is a gap in strength of millions, yet Yujiro is able to manipulate the Presure point to only knock Baki out as opposed to killing him instantly

https://imgur.com/a/EaGsRmM

Edit: the AP gap is roughly Baki scaling above 0.02 Tons to Yujiro being able to causally 2 shot a 15 KT
 
I'll address one argument at a time and only move on to the next argument once we've all come to some kind of conclusion in order to make responses easier and communication more fluid
 
I'm also pretty sure Yujiro's feat of copying Xiao-Lee is also better than anything Hayato has ever done. He won't use it against him but he should certainly be able to copy Hayato's moveset.
 
The Prince of Counters said:
I'm also pretty sure Yujiro's feat of copying Xiao-Lee is also better than anything Hayato has ever done. He won't use it against him but he should certainly be able to copy Hayato's moveset.
Click to expand...
Very true, and I plan to address that one with that very argument
 
Even the most basic characters of Baki can copy skills, even the ones who are literally brute force users such as Pickle and Jack. These guys, in comparison to the other characters, are literally brutes. God, one of them is literally a prehistoric man.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
BakiHanma18 said:
Could you explain this? I'm confused by the wording
Click to expand...
Can use ki to shut off a pressure point on meridians temporarily which basically results in 1 hit kills for reasons explained here. Such a thing can be used on every living being. On the cellular level.
Btw ki flow is natural in Kenichi. Sometimes it is used synonymously with blood vessels.
Click to expand...
Ahhh I understand. If that's the case, I'd say the 2 Pressure point feats are comparable, with Hayato's feat being the more impressive of the 2. If everyone agrees, we can move on to the next feat
 
KGiffoni said:
If we're talking ki, Aiki is basically "no u" via ki manip in the bakiverse
Click to expand...
True, I plan to address Aiki through Shibukawa's amazing feats and scale up to Yujiro
 
Firephoenixearl said:
BakiHanma18 said:
KGiffoni said:
If we're talking ki, Aiki is basically "no u" via ki manip in the bakiverse
Click to expand...
True, I plan to address Aiki through Shibukawa's amazing feats and scale up to Yujiro
Click to expand...
Wait. Fighting Kenichi in Ki manip? Are you sure? Absolutely sure?
Click to expand...
We'll get to Aiki eventually. For now, do you agree or disagree that Hayato's and Yujiro's Pressure Point feats are similar in skill, but Hayato's is better?
 
Firephoenixearl said:
BakiHanma18 said:
KGiffoni said:
If we're talking ki, Aiki is basically "no u" via ki manip in the bakiverse
Click to expand...
True, I plan to address Aiki through Shibukawa's amazing feats and scale up to Yujiro
Click to expand...
Wait. Fighting Kenichi in Ki manip? Are you sure? Absolutely sure?
Click to expand...
That's aura, what any of it has to do with ki? You can't say having a very strong aura gives you immunity to ki based techniques.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Don't exactly think, that Yujiro rendering people unconscious is comparable to killing people on a cellular level. Or this (idk if we should count it here):
Brainwashed Miu by having her have complete amnesia (unable to know who she is, what happened even forgot to speak).

And Hayato sent miu unconscious with a light tap too.
Click to expand...
The reason I consider it impressive is because of the AP gap between them. Even if Yujiro held back, he'd still be insanely stronger (oneshotting a 15KT vs scaling above 0.02 tons) and hitting a vital spot. The skill comes in where he, instead of killing Baki, manipulated his Pressure Point to only knock him out. Cellular death is without a doubt more impressive, but the level of understanding, muscle control, and anatomical knowledge Yujiro is showing is no small feat either
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Well it's just pressure points, basically knowledge.
But if you look at Hayato putting Miu unconscious. We have a 7-C, knocking down a 9-B or 9-A unconscious without killing her.

Also in terms of holding back Hayato can actually restrict his power to 1/500'000 of his normal. Superior to both Miu and Kenichi combined even when using 0.0002% of his true power.
Click to expand...
That's what Yujiro is doing. A 7-C knocking out a 9-A without killing him, but Hayato's best Pressure Point feat is the cellular death, so I'd say they are comparable, but like Yujiro's feat is like a 7 or 8 and Hayato's is like a 9 or 10 (more likely to be 7 to 10)
 
I don't think it's very comparable when Hayato does what Yujiro does and even has more aplications. It's a straight up upgrade.

It'd be different if they had completely different applications. In this case it's straight up more.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
I don't think it's very comparable when Hayato does what Yujiro does and even has more aplications. It's a straight up upgrade.
It'd be different if they had completely different applications. In this case it's straight up more.
Click to expand...
Right, that's what I'm trying to get at. The feat is impressive, but both fighters ca do it, except Hayato can do that and something more impressive, giving him the win in regards to pressure points. If we agree that Hayato is superior here and nobody has anymore arguments, we can move on to the next argument, right?
 
I think everyone has had ample time to respond, so the first point goes to Hayato. Next: muscle control. I'll assume Hayato's feat here would be being able to hold back to 1/1,000,000th of his power, so I'll post Yujiro's feat and figure out how much he had to have been holding back in order to not kill the opponent in question, a 10-B, possibly 10-A

https://imgur.com/a/WzJPJCs
 
Hmm if we go like that, hayato has also hurt without killing 10B people like thugs or terrorists. Don't really think that's as much skill as it is just normal plot given ability to allow interaction. Otherwise goku would laugh at both for not killing normal people or not nuking the planet by running.

If we need a feat here we can use hayato acting as 2 people being capable of separating his right side moves from his left, acting so independently he can say 2 sentences simultaneously. Or talk to a single person without anyone else hearing by giving direction to the sound so that it goes to only the destined person and doesn't go into the surroundings.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Hmm if we go like that, hayato has also hurt without killing 10B people like thugs or terrorists. Don't really think that's as much skill. Otherwise goku would laugh at both for not killing normal people or nuking the planet by running.
Click to expand...
Agreed. This shouldn't apply to skill, it's more like just fiction being fiction.
 
If we can all agree that it isn't a matter of holding back, but instead PIS, I'll move on to the next feat
 
Not a skill feat, even I can do that but since we're on the sweat feats shigure cuts a drop of sweat on kenichi's forehead without cutting him.

Also I will responding tomorrow to whatever points brought up cuz sleep and university
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Not a skill feat, even I can do that but since we're on the sweat feats shigure cuts a drop of sweat on kenichi's forehead without cutting him.
Also I will responding tomorrow to whatever points brought up cuz sleep and university
Click to expand...
I understand, I will post 1 feat and await your reply before moving forward
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Ok so:
Hayato is already above that, as Hayato can literally beat the entire verse at the same time (If we take Ougi out), so he's already above having learned martial arts. As for the mastery i'd rather not use it here as mastery can mean any level of mastery so best to stick to feats.

Xiao Lee, is something Siegfried does differently, but better. He doesn't do it through relaxation, he does it through prediction, but it works against everything, including weapons, arrows, bullets, grabs etc. As for relaxation, Silicardo can do that to escape grabs. Here are some of Siegfrieds feats:

Can read an opponet's rythym to then use it to become unaffected by attacks and use that power against an opponent

Is unaffected by the attacks of 3 people all at once and defeats them with ease.

His counters work even against sharp weapons. And reflects it in the same spots.

Reflects even arrows.

Pressure points, ugh...i don't think you wanna go there. These guys have death hax via pressure points xD. But they can also render them useless.

Yeah Ougi was the only "rival" Hayato ever had. He also had a "hard fight" against Silicardo (but that guy got PIS and CIS'd into losing against what should be fodder to him so hard that i feel bad for him).

As for prediction, yeah Renka has a similar feat. Remember she's disciple class. Literally insignificant in comparison.

Baki looks insanely fast to people cus of no waste in his movement, yeah, so did Hajime.

Doppo is 10th dan? Yeah Sasaki laughs with his nickname being the 100th dan brawler. xD

Doppo didn't actually see through the illusion he was cought up in it. Besides people start having illusions when trying to predict Berserker's next attack too.

Hayato created this, which is basically a better Sangan.

I need to go take a shower will answer the rest when i get back.
Click to expand...
1.

mas┬Àter1

/╦êmastər/

verb

gerund or present participle: mastering

acquire complete knowledge or skill in (an accomplishment, technique, or art).

"I never mastered Latin"


There are no such things as levels of mastering something. Mastering is having peak knowledge of something. If i have mastered Karate, i have complete knowledge in it. If i have mastered martial art x, i have complete knowledge over it. While i also prefer sticking to feats and upscaling over statements, they're also a huge part of this so let's not ignore it.

2. This type of "Xiao Lee" was already done by 13yo Baki, with his eyes closed, and against a sword user as well.

3. And how skilled are these people? And even then, this isn't THAT of an impressing feat. I can see a top fighter such as Rickson Gracie already doing 1v3s and Baki outskills him so much it's not even funny.

4. I've covered this in point 2.

5. Much like blades, it's just something pointy/sharp.

6. How so? Can i get a scan of that?

7. Yujiro on the other hand is explictly said to always be on a level no one else is on, basically transcending the rest of the bakiverse.
 
1. Each verse has different meaning for mastery. Same reason why many people can have "mastered the sword" but none can compare to ikki. Cus mastery is dependent on feats.

2. That is greatly outdone by Siegfried. Against projectiles, grabs etc. There's no comparison there.

3. Ougi only appeared once to fight hayato so outside of that, featless. Silkwat is a ball of PIS, CIS and inconsistency. So let's just say he's not got luck scaling from rivals.

As for the rest i don't know which points you're referring to/answering.
 
So this one should be kinda interesting. When he was younger, Baki fought Yujiro. Baki took advantage of Yujiro not doing anything to get him in a Rear Naked Snake choke, of which Yujiro was able to break out of without moving from one spot https://imgur.com/a/qd2z4ba

Could Hayato replicate this feat or something better?
 
Firephoenixearl said:
That's not skill. That's just Yujiro being able to shake harder than Baki can grip. A difference in AP rather than in skill
It's different from what Siegfried did to counter the same move. (even though this ain't skill, it's more like flexibility gained through training but eh, close enough)

Though akisame did the same without the shaking against a comparable opponent.
Click to expand...
He's not shaking him off, he just bends his body and moves to get Baki around to the from swinging and flings him off
 
https://youtu.be/M1FvswxCTQY I don't like the stupid watermark on the vid, and it's kinda hard to see the nuances of what he's doing in the anime, but you can kinda see it in motion at 1:15 and beyond. He moves forward, which causes Baki to have a "Front Naked Snake Choke" if you will, and uses the momentum of the swing to get him off
 
He is shaking him though. He first twists his body (to gain momentum), then twists the other way around so that Baki becomes unable to hang on from the back and is actually taken by the momentum and rotated with it.

It's not skill, it's just him being much stronger.
 
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