The Dark Tower CRT: Crimson King Scaling and Randall Flagg Addition

[Xulrev]

The Dark Tower CRT: Crimson King Scaling and Randall Flagg Additio

Brief Overview

Ever since the re-haul of the wiki's general Tiering guidelines, and ever since the last round of Dark Tower revisions, the Crimson King has not had a....stable....relationship with tiering in general. There remain few on the wiki who can even engage the material at such a level as to comprehend what they're talking about accurately, and probably fewer still who can back it up with quotes.

Hopefully I can show you I fulfill both conditions necessary and accomplish my goal of putting the Crimson King at Tier: Unknown. Oh, and add a simple bit of Existence Erasure to Randall Flagg's profile, but nobody is here for that

Here we go.

The Crimson King's Scaling Or Lack Thereof
Simply put, his scaling doesn't truly exist at the moment.

We have, on the wiki, superfluous and shaky scaling to put The Crimson King as comparable to Gan himself at best, and outright fallacious scaling at worst. Ever since MrKingofNegativity's thread in conjunction with several other Staff and persons (such as myself) to remove the comics scaling, his current profile is woefully inadequate and relies on non-canon support for his rating.

I will firstly lay out why I personally believe the Crimson King does not, in any way, scale to the higher echelons of The White (the forces of Good and will of Gan, do ya ken).

For starters, Black Thirteen, a crystal ball which is The True Crimson King's actual eye given form in the world, completely and utterly fails to overwhelm a prayer to God (Gan) from a Priest and a Boy asking for it to be silenced:

God, not my will but Thine. Not the potter but the potter's clay. If I can't do anything else, help me to take it in my arms and jump out the window and destroy the gods-damned thing once and for all. But if it be Your will to help me make it still, instead—to make it go back to sleep—then send me Your strength. And help me to remember… Drugged by Black Thirteen he might have been, but Jake still hadn't lost his touch. Now he plucked the rest of the thought out of the Pere's mind and spoke it aloud, only changing the word Callahan used to the one Roland had taught them. "I need no sigul," Jake said. "Not the potter but the potter's clay, and I need no sigul!" "God," Callahan said. The word was as heavy as a stone, but once it was out of his mouth, the rest of them came easier. "God, if You're still there, if You still hear me, this is Callahan. Please still this thing, Lord. Please send it back to sleep. I ask it in the name of Jesus." "In the name of the White," Jake said. "Ite!" Oy yapped. "Amen," said the maid in a stoned, bemused voice. For a moment the droning idiot's song from the box rose another notch, and Callahan understood it was hopeless, that not even God Almighty could stand against Black Thirteen. Then it fell silent.

• A very straightforward thing occurs here: Black Thirteen actively tries to interfere with the people around it and throw their plans into disarray, and with a prayer to Gan, it is forcibly, against its will and struggle, silenced without effort. Black Thirteen is the King's True Eye, and Gan smacks it down without effort through a simple Prayer. Proof for it being the King's Eye since people will rightfully ask:

The lid of the box closes and he feels a moment of sublime relief… but then it opens again, very slowly, disclosing the eye. "No, " Callahan whispers. "Please, no. " But he's not able to close the box-all his strength seems to have deserted him-and it will not close itself. Deep down in the black eye, a red speck forms, glows… grows. Callahan's horror swells, filling his throat, threatening to stop his heart with its chill. It's the King, he thinks. It's the Eye of the Crimson King as he looks down from his place in the Dark Tower. And he is seeing me.

• This interaction alone is enough, in my view, to destroy any concept of 'He scales to Gan'; he's infinitely weaker. However, we do get explicit statements that the Red King is in no way comparable to even the Guardians of the Beams, let alone the Beams, let alone the Tower, let alone Gan. Let's take a look shall we, the words come from Maerlyn the Great in The Wind Through The Keyhole:

Maerlyn nodded. "It's a sad world, Tim Ross. As for me, since this is the Beam of the Lion, 'twas his little joke to put me in the shape of a great cat. Although not in the shape of Aslan, for that's magic not even he can do...although he'd like to, aye. Or slay Aslan and all the other Guardians, so the Beams collapse." "The Covenant Man," Tim whispered. "Nay, nay, not he. Little magic and long life's all he's capable of. No, Tim, there's one far greater than he of the broad cloak. When the Great One points his finger from where he bides, the Broad Cloak scurries. But sending you was none of the Red King's bidding, and the one you call the Covenant Man will pay for his foolery, I'm sure."

• Explicit statement from Maerlyn himself that the Red King, ol' Dis himself, lacks the magic and power to slay even the Guardians of the Beam.

Let's further examine the plot itself, however, just to preempt any argumentation stating that the Crimson King, as a threat to the multiverse, ought to scale:

Case 1: The Crimson King's entire plan for reshaping the world that comes after the fall of the Tower relies on using hundreds of psychics to break the Beams that uphold it over several decades, if not centuries, of time, only accelerating once a psychic whose power is to amp others comes along and speeds up the whole thing by decades. If we accept the King to scale remotely to Gan or the Tower, why is it that he himself is outright incapable of snapping the supports of the Tower without centuries of planning and plotting? He does not scale to the Tower itself in any capacity.

Case 2: The Crimson King's entire plan for after the Tower falls is to rebuild the Prim (a sea of primal soup, essentially) after the fall of reality into his own image/creation. This is seen as a feat on-par with the power of The Dark Tower itself.....with literally no support. If the Tower falls, so too does the very rationale that gives the entire Dark Tower-verse its current rating. For all we know, he plans on making a big Todash Lego playset to swing around on in the Prim. Literally, and I do mean quite literally, nothing at all whatsoever supports the theory that he could rebuild the infinite levels of infinite realities of infinite size. He does not scale to the Tower itself in any capacity.

Narratively, The Crimson King is in no way comparable, remotely, to Gan or the Tower, and for that we say thankee-sai. To claim ol' Red scales to Gan would be akin to saying Batman scales to Superman because with prep Bruce can take on The Man of Steel. Using Kryptonite and tech to beat Superman is a pretty apt allegory for what ol' Red does to take on the Tower, except it takes him centuries of work. I believe hardly anyone with a rational mind would say "Bruce scales to Clark Kent because he could beat Superman after several hundred years of prep to infuse the air around him with Kryptonite and then Superman collapsed". It's simply silly.

To be entirely fair, however, let's examine some claims I am certain will be brought forth for The Crimon King 'scaling' to the Tower directly.

The Crimson King And Why He SHOULD Scale
There is, exactly, precisely, and only in existence a single route of argumentation for why the Crimson King MIGHT scale that is sturdy. A second argument exists, but it's literally fluff.

The Argument: The Crimson King alters the song of The Dark Tower to put Roland and what little of his ka-tet remains to sleep. In full:

He relaxed, ready to let the change sweep over him, and then another voice spoke from the center of his mind. It was the voice of his Red Daddy, the one who was imprisoned on the side of the Dark Tower and needed Mordred alive, at least one more day, in order to set him free. Wait a little longer, this voice counseled. Wait a little more. I might have another trick up my sleeve. Wait… wait just a little longer… Mordred waited. And after a moment or two, he felt the pulse from the Dark Tower change. Patrick felt that change, too. The pulse became soothing. And there were words in it, ones that blunted his eagerness to draw. He made another line, paused, then put his pencil aside and only looked up at Old Mother, who seemed to pulse in time with the words he heard in his head, words Roland would have recognized.

• So there we have it. Ol' Red alters the soothing song of the Tower. Shouldn't be possible if Gan directly were involved and wanted Roland to achieve the tower, right?

• Good thing Gan wasn't involved here at all! From, quite literally, two chapters prior:

Surely those three who remained (four, counting himself) had outrun ka's umbrella. Not since the Prim receded had there been such a creature as Mordred Deschain, who was part hume and part of that rich and potent soup. Surely such a creature could never have been meant by ka to die such a mundane death as the one that now threatened: fever brought on by food-poisoning.

• Ka, for those unaware, is literally Gan's will made manifest. A common theme in the books is that Ka is literally Stephen King writing the books out, and therefore the plot IS Ka. However, at this point in the books, and once before, Roland and his ka-tet manage to outrun Ka itself (don't ask), and this is one such case. They're forging their own destiny and fate, and Gan has none at all to do with it.

Even assuming a Steelman'd argument (the strongest possible position) for the defense of ol' Red scaling to the Tower, there's the mitigating context of the fact that only two Beams of the original six exist to uphold the Tower anymore, and one of those Beams takes on the form of a dying, bloodied boy in a dream to the ka-tet begging them to hurry before he collapses, as with only one Beam left the Tower would be too weak and fall.

The field of Roses around the Tower is described as feeding the Beams and vice-versa and carrying the pulse of the Tower's sweet song along to the ka-tet, and given the fact of the Beams and their lack of vitality, and given the lack of Ka itself being in the story anymore...it's impossible to argue that the Crimson King scales from this, given all the anti-feats he has.

The Second Argument: Ol' Red is said, in a one-off statement, to be 'Gan's crazy side'.

From three persons impersonating The Crimson King's Ego, Superego, and Id:

"No perhaps about it," Fimalo said. "For ka is a wheel, and if a wheel be not broken, it will always roll. Unless the Crimson King can become either Lord of the Tower or its Lord High Executioner, all that was will eventually return." "Lunacy," said Fumalo. "And destructive lunacy, at that. But of course Big Red always was Gan's crazy side." He gave Susannah an ugly smirk and said, "That's Frooood, Lady Blackbird."

• Well, there you have it. He absolutely must scale, right, because a single person serving in The Court Of The Crimson King believes him to be Gan's crazy side. Totally quantifiable, right? (This is sarcasm, if you didn't grasp it)
  
  Well, except for the fact that he can't even forcibly climb the tower.

"We have reason to believe that he's been shunted onto a balcony of the Tower," Roland said. "Undead or not, he never could have gained the top without some sigul of the Eld; surely if he knew so much prophecy, then he knew that." Fimalo was smiling grimly. "Aye, but as Horatio held the bridge in a story told in Susannah's world, so Los', the Crimson King, now holds the Tower. He has found his way into its mouth but cannot climb to the top, 'tis true. Yet while he holds it hard, neither can you."

• If he were a mirror of Gan, I'd find it incredible that he can't even climb the Tower which is Gan's form made manifest.
  
  
  Further mitigating context is that, when pressed on if what he said was true, the person who claims The Crimson King to be Gan's crazy side only confirms the validity of everything else he said in the conversation.

"Swear to me that all you told us was true," she bade the ugly ancient sitting on the cobbled bridge and below the cold gaze of the crows, who were beginning to settle back to their former places. What she meant to learn or prove by this she had not the slightest idea. Would she know this man's lies, even now? Probably not. But she pressed on, just the same. "Swear it on the name of your father, and on his face, as well." The old man raised his right hand to her, palm out, and Susannah saw there were open sores even there. "I swear it on the name of Andrew John Cornwell, of Tioga Springs, New York. And on his face, too. The King of this castle really did run mad, and really did burst those Wizard's Glasses that had come into his hands. He really did force the staff to take poison and he really did watch them die." He flung out the hand he'd held up in pledge to the box of severed limbs. "Where do you think I got those, Lady Blackbird? Body Parts R Us?"

• Simply put, the argumentation for The Crimson King scaling in any quantifiable way to Gan or the Tower falls flat in the face of explicit feats, statements, and narrative. The arguments, such as they are, for the Crimson King scaling are abysmal and rely on too much presumption to be valid in the face of the overwhelming evidence telling us he does not scale.

His rating must be changed to Unknown in all forms at max potential, with wide-ranging manipulation powers still present, but potency of indeterminable power.

Thus concludes my rather lengthy CRT's portion about Ol' Red. But let's move on to Marten Broadcloak, The Walking Dude, The Covenant Man himself: Randall Flagg.

Randall Flagg Existence Erasure Profile Additio
This is rather straightforward, Randall Flagg needs to have Existence Erasure added to his profile since, in the unabridged version of The Stand he simply vanishes a man with a snap of his fingers in Flagg's first appearance:

The wind moaned through the shattered wing window of an old Plymouth and tiny living things rustled inside. Something else rustled behind him. He turned and it was Kit Bradenton, clad only in absurd yellow underpants, his poet's pot hanging over the waistband like an avalanche held in suspended animation. Bradenton walked toward him over the heaped remains of Detroit rolling iron. A leafspring pierced through his foot like crucifixion, but the wound was bloodless. Bradenton's navel was a black eye. The dark man snapped his fingers and Bradenton was gone. He grinned and walked back to the Buick. Laid his forehead against the slope of roof on the passenger's side. Time passed. At some length he straightened, still grinning.

• He snaps his fingers, a man entirely disappears from reality. I don't think it gets more straightforward than this.

Conclusion
1. The Crimson King fails to ever overcome Gan in a confrontation, Red-against-White

2. The Crimson King requires immense and lengthy outside aid to even assail Gan's physical form made manifest

3. The Crimson King is stated by reputable sources to be unable to even assail the Guardians of Gan's physical form made manifest

4. The Crimson King is stated to be able to remake a universe that has no physics or laws or size to constrain it. Unquantifiable

5. The Crimson King is capable of manipulating the song of The Dark Tower in one instance when beyond the veil of Ka, Gan's will. This is done when the Tower is nearly falling, and therefore unquantifiable and not scaleable.

6. The Crimson King is stated to be Gan's 'crazy side', whatever that even means. This is followed up by the person claiming it not reiterating he was telling the truth on that point, but rather curiously the person reiterates every single other claim made as being true. Unquantifiable.

Taken everything into account, The Crimson King ought not scale whatsoever, and needs to be placed at an Unknown rating. Randall Flagg also gets Existence Erasure added to his profile as an ability.

Thanks for reading if you stuck with me all the way to down here

 

[Antvasima]

This seems to make sense to me.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Xulrev is a pretty smart guy, this makes a lot of sense to me based off of what I'm reading unless I'm missing some serious context I agree with the OP.

 

[Zensum]

Very well put, I agree.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm not sure I read "infinitely weaker" from the Eye argument, though obviously this doesn't really matter since Gan floors with zero effort. Even if he weren't infinitely weaker, we'd be in no position to know. I think EE is weird in that it just says he was gone (which could easily be a lot of things) but I'm willing to accept it if that seems the most likely to you.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I disagree with making CK unknown.while I do aheee Gan is obviously far stronger, CK should still scale to Maturin and Pennywise, but still be below gam

 

[Xulrev]

@Bambu

That's an entirely fair assessment; the 'infinitely weaker' is my own personal reading based on taking everything in totality into account, I may have gotten hasty in my assessment early on in my OP.

As to the EE, the character he 'vanishes' simply ceases to be in any book, and is never referenced again. It's not teleportation, it's not being shifted to another level of The Tower, the guy just.....isn't....anymore. So I believe it to be EE.

Thank you for the input.

@Zach

I literally list why the CK cannot scale to Maturin in the thread; Maerlyn himself states the CK is beneath every single Guardian of the Beams. And Pennywise? Why on earth should he scale to someone who isn't even an Agent Of The Red? Pennywise is his own beast, and has no connection whatsoever to the Crimson King that makes narrative sense.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Only avatar CK is below Maturin

Not true form

 

[Xulrev]

Only avatar CK is below Maturin
Not true form

And you are basing this upon.....what, precisely?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

The fact 90% of times people are talking about "the crimson king" they are referring to los

 

[Xulrev]

The fact 90% of times people are talking about "the crimson king" they are referring to los

This is not support of your claim in any significant way that contributes to the dialogue. Prove that claim, if you wouldn't mind.

I would ask you for proof that Maerlyn discussing The Crimson King means he was discussing some Avatar, and I would further ask you for proof that The Crimson King scales in the way you claim.

As it stands, you're making un-backed assertions and mere contradiction, not really much of an argument.

 

[AuruilImperator]

This basically makes the Crimson King weaker than literally any Demon Elemental, which is so stupid that it is physically painfully to even think about.

I'm not going to get into an argument over why this is ******* nonsensical in any form, since it's quite clear that everybody here has already made up their minds on the subject. But it goes entirely against quite literally everything we know of both the Red and the White (for one thing, Black Thirteen is never stated as originating from Dis. Not even once. Los is the only one it's ever referenced or even implied as being connected to).

 

[Xulrev]

In what way is the Unknow rating a weak rating?

So far it seems everyone's issues stem from thing sthat aren't canon or cannot be backed up, narratively.

We have 'made up our minds' based on....facts from the canon source material. If it doesn't make sense, that's Stephen King's fault, not mine.

I'm here for accuracy, not to try and wank another person's works beyond what he clearly states.

 

[AuruilImperator]

@Bambu
That's an entirely fair assessment; the 'infinitely weaker' is my own personal reading based on taking everything in totality into account, I may have gotten hasty in my assessment early on in my OP.

As to the EE, the character he 'vanishes' simply ceases to be in any book, and is never referenced again. It's not teleportation, it's not being shifted to another level of The Tower, the guy just.....isn't....anymore. So I believe it to be EE.

Thank you for the input.

@Zach

I literally list why the CK cannot scale to Maturin in the thread; Maerlyn himself states the CK is beneath every single Guardian of the Beams. And Pennywise? Why on earth should he scale to someone who isn't even an Agent Of The Red? Pennywise is his own beast, and has no connection whatsoever to the Crimson King that makes narrative sense.

Maerlyn is a known liar and trickster. The fact that you're taking him at his word is one of the most laughable defenses for why the Crimson King should be downgraded that I have ever seen.

Fu fact: Maturin literally dies in the original IT novel. It's heavily implied he choked to death on several galaxies. Most of the other Beam Guardians are similarly dead, having needed the Old Ones to build cybernetic replacements. This directly contradicts the notion of them being more powerful than the King, and it's even pointed out in setting. The Guardians are Long-Timers, meaning they are not truly eternal. They can weaken and die. Dis and Gan are All-Timers. They are truly eternal. This whole attempt to downgrade the CK requires using Los as a baseline and ignoring literally anything that goes against your personal narrative.

 

[Xulrev]

> Maerlyn is a known liar and trickster.

Source on this from the novels?

 

[AuruilImperator]

In what way is the Unknow rating a weak rating?
So far it seems everyone's issues stem from thing sthat aren't canon or cannot be backed up, narratively.

We have 'made up our minds' based on....facts from the canon source material. If it doesn't make sense, that's Stephen King's fault, not mine.

I'm here for accuracy, not to try and wank another person's works beyond what he clearly states.

King hasn't stated shit regarding any of what you're positing here. In fact, a lot of what is said on pages like Maturin's is blatantly wrong, and requires using little short stories and poems to back itself up. In fact, the stuff regarding Dis isn't even non-canon. It's in both the book and the short story detailing its origin alongside Gan. The fact that you insist on throwing said lore out in favor of downplaying shit to hell and back isn't a fault of Stephen King, but more you pointedly misrepresenting what's going on in the narrative and cherrypicking whatever you think supports your points, much like you did with Black Thirteen and everything relating to the Beam Guardians.

 

[Xulrev]

You're more than welcome to actually use evidence and try to prove yourself right, rather than be contrarian without backing.

I look forward to an actually good dialogue if you could drop the useless hostile tone, please.

 

[AuruilImperator]

> Maerlyn is a known liar and trickster.
Source on this from the novels?

If you think the literally demonic Prim sorceror who makes soul-sucking demon spheres and is know for ******* people over isn't going to lie (and most importantly: doesn't know shit about the Guardians proper), then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[AuruilImperator]

You're more than welcome to actually use evidence and try to prove yourself right, rather than be contrarian without backing.
I look forward to an actually good dialogue if you could drop the useless hostile tone, please.

Considering your already clear bias (and notably failure to address the fact that the Beam Guardians are noted to be fully capable of dying from relatively simple shit), I'm not sure what exactly to tell you.

Like, your whole point blatantly ignores that in one case, a character is flat out told that if he took on the nature of Gan, Ram-Abbalah/Dis would literally "blow him out like a candle." If Dis was notably weaker than Gan as you suggest, this would not be possible. At all.

As it stands, all I'm seeing is a clear bias and attempt to use Los as simply the end-all of the CK's powerlevel.

 

[Xulrev]

Your contradiction is noted, and as of now, ignored.

All I'm asking is for proof. I have no clue how I'm biased here by analyzing the text and coming to a quite clear conclusion that others can agree with.

If you have proof and not personal affronts, I will examine them and take them into consideration.

 

[AuruilImperator]

Let's start with Insomnia and work our way down.

>Clotho: [Be content with this: beyond the Short-Time levels of existence and the Long-Time levels on which Lachesis, Atropos, and I exist, there are yet other levels. These are inhabited by creatures we could call All-Timers, beings which are either eternal or so close to it as to make no difference.

>Short-Timers and Long-Timers live in overlapping spheres of existence-on connected floors of the same building, if you like-ruled by the Random and the Purpose. Above these floors, inaccessible to us but very much a part of the same tower Of existence, live other beings.

>Some of them are marvelous and wonderful,-others are hideous beyond our ability to comprehend, let alone yours. These beings might be called the Higher Purpose and the Higher Random... or perhaps there is no Random beyond a certain level,we suspect that may be the case, but we have no real way of telling.

>We do know that it is something from one of these higher levels that has interested itself in Ed, and that something else from up there made a countermove. That countermove is you, Ralph and Lois.]

This pretty clearly states that the Red/Random, the very essence of the King filters down all throughout the Tower in the same way the Purpose/Gan does. This is explicit. But there's more. From Black House:

>You asked how many worlds," Parkus begins. "The answer, in the High Speech, is da fan: worlds beyond telling." With one of the blackened sticks he draws a figure eight on its side, which Jack recognizes as the Greek symbol for infinity.

>"There is a Tower that binds them in place. Think of it as an axle upon which many wheels spin, if you like. And there is an entity that would bring this Tower down. Ram Abbalah."

>At these words, the flames of the fire seem to momentarily darken and turn red. Jack wishes he could believe that this is only a trick of his overstrained mind, but cannot. "The Crimson King," he says.

>"Yes. His physical being is pent in a cell at the top of the Tower, but he has another manifestation, every bit as real, and this lives in Can-tah Abbalah - the Court of the Crimson King."

>"Two places at once." Given his journeying between the world of America and the world of the Territories, Jack has little trouble swallowing this concept.

>"Yes."

>"If he - or it - destroys the Tower, won't that defeat his purpose? Won't he destroy his physical being in the process?"

>"Just the opposite: he'll set it free to wander what will then be chaos . . . din-tah . . . the furnace. Some parts of Mid-World have fallen into that furnace already."

It's pretty clearly outlined that Ram-Abbalah will survive the fall of the Tower (which being Gan's body, will likely lead to either His own death or just render him irrelevant as the Random feeds). Los might not survive this, but that's meaningless compared to Dis.

>Ka is drawing you to the Devar-toi, but a very powerful anti-ka, set in motion by the one you call the Crimson King, is working against you and your tet in a thousand ways."

From the Dark Tower. The Crimson King can oppose Ka, which is literally fate which is also Gan. They have the same breadth of ability.

>"I'm Gan or possessed by Gan, I dont know which, maybe theres no difference." King began to cry. His tears were silent and horrible. "But its not Dis, I turned aside from Dis, I repudiate Dis, and that should be enough but its not, ka is never satisfied, greedy old ka...."

Song of Susannah mentions Dis by name, and pretty much treats it and Gan as though both can decide to control authors whenever they wish. King himself worries that Dis would've just made him into its pet scribe, much like Gan is doing for him and literally all other authors. Finally, in the Talisman:

>In one sense he was not in the Agincourt at all, not in Point Venuti, not in Mendocino County, not in California, not in the American Territories, not in those other Territories; but he was in them, and in an infinite number of other worlds as well, and all at the same time. Nor was he simply in one place in all those worlds; he was in them everywhere because he was those worlds. The Talisman, it seemed, was much more than even his father had believed. It was not just the axle of all possible worlds, but the worlds themselves-the worlds, and the spaces between those worlds.

>Jack Saywer was everywhere; Jack Sawyer was everything. A blade of grass on a world fifty thousand worlds down the chain from earth died of thirst on an inconsequential plain somewhere in the center of a continent which roughly corresponded in position to Africa; Jack died with that blade of grass. In another world, dragons were copulating in the center of a cloud high above the planet, and the fiery breath of their ecstasy mixed with the cold air and precipitated rain and floods on the ground below. Jack was the he-dragon; Jack was the she-dragon; Jack was the sperm; Jack was the egg. Far out in the ether a million universes away, three specks of dust floated near one another in interstellar space. Jack was the dust, and Jack was the space between. Galaxies unreeled around his head like long spools of paper, and fate punched each in random patterns, turning them into macro-cosmic player-piano tapes which would play everything from ragtime to funeral dirges. Jack's happy teeth bit a orange; Jack's unhappy flesh screamed as the teeth tore him open. He was a trillion dust-kitties under a billion beds.

>He was the powdered henshit in Buddy Parkins's nose, he was the trembling hairs that would soon cause Buddy Parkins to sneeze; he was the sneeze; he was the germs in the sneeze; he was the atoms in the germs; he was the tachyons in the atoms travelling backward through time toward the big bang at the start of creation.

>He saw a googolplex of sparrows in a googolplex of worlds and marked the fall or the well-being of each.

>He died in the Gehenna of Territories ore-pit mines.

>He lived as a flu-virus in Etheridge's tie.

>He ran in a wind over far places.

>He was...

>Oh he was...

>He was God. God, or something so close as to make no difference.

>No! Jack screamed in terror. No, I don't want to be God! Please! Please, I don't want to be God, I ONLY WANT TO SAVE MY MOTHER'S LIFE!

When Jack briefly uses the Talisman, he acquires power over infinite worlds/all possible worlds, everything in them, and the spaces in between them. In fact, Jack becomes all those things. He briefly experiences what it's like to be Gan, what such a thing is truly like.

Later when Jack asks whether he can use the Talisman (the part he still has access ro) to defeat the Crimson King/Ram Abbalah, the answer he gets is thus:

>Jack thinks of the lilies Speedy left for him in Dale's bathroom. How the smell lingered on his hands even after he had given the bouquet itself to Tansy. And he remembers how the Talisman looked in the murmuring darkness of the Queen's Pavilion, rising brightly, changing everything before it finally vanished.

>He thinks: It's still changing everything.

>"Parkus." Is it the first time he's called the other man - the other coppiceman - by that name? He doesn't know for sure, but he thinks it may be.

>"Yes, Jack."

>"What's left of the Talisman - is it enough? Enough for me to take on this Crimson King?"

>Parkus looks shocked in spite of himself. "Never in your life, Jack. Never in any life. The abbalah would blow you out like a candle. But it may be enough for you to take on Mr. Munshun - to go into the furnace-lands and bring Tyler out."

And there's even more besides that, but I THINK the point has been sufficiently made.

TLDR: Dis/Ram-Abbalah is nowhere near inferior to Gan. Nothing in the text across all of the books supports this, and most of the characters who do say shit to that extent are almost entirely guaranteed to be lying. Los is probably inferior to a lot of things, but he's a meagre avatar which is noted numerous times in the main canon alone. By all accounts, Ram-Abbalah should very well scale to Gan as both are in the same ballpark of raw power.

 

[AuruilImperator]

You're more than welcome to actually use evidence and try to prove yourself right, rather than be contrarian without backing.
I look forward to an actually good dialogue if you could drop the useless hostile tone, please.

You have the evidence placed at your feet. Feel free to drop the passive-agresive smarm yourself whenever you want.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Auruil I won't pretend to be knowledgeable on the verse. However could you possibly tone down the argumentative tone? You are here to debate. Nothing more.

 

[AuruilImperator]

Apologies for coming off as too hostile. But I will not retract my stated stance on this.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

That's fine, just try to keep a civil atmosphere br0ther.

 

[Xulrev]

@AuruilImperator

Insomnia Evidence
Your entire proof of the King being similar to Gan and scaling is that....he is the antagonist? His presence is felt in the entire Tower? Of course it is, he's trying to bring it down. Saying that The Red (evil) exists in the setting therefore The Crimson King is equivalent to Gan is only a small bit of an enormous Hasty Generalization. Nowhere in any of this passage is it even remotely hinted at that The Crimson King is as powerful as Gan, that's entirely your headcanon.

Black House Evidence
1. The Crimson King surviving the fall of the Tower doesn't scale him to it; all that means is that his existence is such that he can exist in the Discordia and Prim that exists without reality. That's like assuming that surviving a house collapse means you can bust a house in a single hit. It doesn't scale, and your evidence is fluff.

2.

>Ka is drawing you to the Devar-toi, but a very powerful anti-ka, set in motion by the one you call the Crimson King, is working against you and your tet in a thousand ways." From the Dark Tower. The Crimson King can oppose Ka, which is literally fate which is also Gan. They have the same breadth of ability.

Nowhere is this said. It says The Crimson King set in motio an anti-ka, for one, not that he sustains it or countered Gan's Ka (in fact, he outright fails to overcome it, that's literally the plot of the entire Towerverse). Hard to say he scales to the will that literally binds him to being a fiction and sets in stone his failure.

Further, The Big Combination is likely what this whole passage, in its full context, is referring to: simply stating that the machine is a powerful force that is working to prevent Jack accomplishing his goal.

3.

>"I'm Gan or possessed by Gan, I dont know which, maybe theres no difference." King began to cry. His tears were silent and horrible. "But its not Dis, I turned aside from Dis, I repudiate Dis, and that should be enough but its not, ka is never satisfied, greedy old ka...." Song of Susannah mentions Dis by name, and pretty much treats it and Gan as though both can decide to control authors whenever they wish. King himself worries that Dis would've just made him into its pet scribe, much like Gan is doing for him and literally all other authors. Finally, in the Talisman:

Okay, what? Now you're actually just outright lying about evidence, and I do NOT appreciate it. Here is the full context for that quote:

"And you had to go into the barn." "Yes, and saw wood." "That was your punishment." "Yes." A tear welled in the corner of King's right eye. It slipped down his cheek to the edge of his beard. "The chickens are dead." "The chickens in the barn?" "Yes, them." More tears followed the first. "What killed them?" "Uncle Oren says it was avian flu. Their eyes are open. They're…a little scary." Or perhaps more than just a little, Eddie thought, judging by the tears and the pallor of the man's cheeks. "You couldn't leave the barn?" "Not until I saw my share of the wood. David did his. It's my turn. There are spiders in the chickens. Spiders in their guts, little red ones. Like specks of red pepper. If they get on me I'll catch the flu and die. Only then I'll come back." "Why?" "I'll be a vampire. I'll be a slave to him. His scribe, maybe. His pet writer." "Whose?" "The Lord of the Spiders. The Crimson King, Tower-pent."

The Crimson King would have to turn Stephen King into a vampire first to turn him into a slave, by assassinating him with vampirism-contracting spiders to kill him.

So no, The Crimson King cannot overcome Gan's will and just make Stephen King his slave, he has to kill Stephen King first. And the only way to do that is to overcome Ka. Wanna guess what never happens?

Also, here's a hilariously relevant comment by MrKingofNegativity, the former Dark Tower expert, debunking the rest of the pseudo-evidence I know you want to bring forth: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1549586#59

Just to preempt all that.

But, to your last bit of evidence: with a full Talisman, Jack approaches something akin to God.

With a shard of it, with unknown power, he likely cannot engage the Crimson King. Alright, cool. That shard of Talisman is barely enough to kill Mr Munshun, I hardly think it's this reality-ending thing you are implying it to be.

> You have the evidence placed at your feet. Feel free to drop the passive-agresive smarm yourself whenever you want.

Hilariously, I think there's less of an argument at my feet now than there was before, as you've ignored context to shoehorn your narrative.

Do give the linked thread a read, might catch you up to speed

 

[Antvasima]

As Mr. Bambu said, everybody should preferably try to be polite and respectful during the discussion. Thank you.

 

[AuruilImperator]

@AuruilImperator
Insomnia Evidence

Your entire proof of the King being similar to Gan and scaling is that....he is the antagonist? His presence is felt in the entire Tower? Of course it is, he's trying to bring it down. Saying that The Red (evil) exists in the setting therefore The Crimson King is equivalent to Gan is only a small bit of an enormous Hasty Generalization. Nowhere in any of this passage is it even remotely hinted at that The Crimson King is as powerful as Gan, that's entirely your headcanon.

Black House Evidence
1. The Crimson King surviving the fall of the Tower doesn't scale him to it; all that means is that his existence is such that he can exist in the Discordia and Prim that exists without reality. That's like assuming that surviving a house collapse means you can bust a house in a single hit. It doesn't scale, and your evidence is fluff.

2.

>Ka is drawing you to the Devar-toi, but a very powerful anti-ka, set in motion by the one you call the Crimson King, is working against you and your tet in a thousand ways." From the Dark Tower. The Crimson King can oppose Ka, which is literally fate which is also Gan. They have the same breadth of ability.

Nowhere is this said. It says The Crimson King set in motio an anti-ka, for one, not that he sustains it or countered Gan's Ka (in fact, he outright fails to overcome it, that's literally the plot of the entire Towerverse). Hard to say he scales to the will that literally binds him to being a fiction and sets in stone his failure.

Further, The Big Combination is likely what this whole passage, in its full context, is referring to: simply stating that the machine is a powerful force that is working to prevent Jack accomplishing his goal.

3.

>"I'm Gan or possessed by Gan, I dont know which, maybe theres no difference." King began to cry. His tears were silent and horrible. "But its not Dis, I turned aside from Dis, I repudiate Dis, and that should be enough but its not, ka is never satisfied, greedy old ka...." Song of Susannah mentions Dis by name, and pretty much treats it and Gan as though both can decide to control authors whenever they wish. King himself worries that Dis would've just made him into its pet scribe, much like Gan is doing for him and literally all other authors. Finally, in the Talisman:

Okay, what? Now you're actually just outright lying about evidence, and I do NOT appreciate it. Here is the full context for that quote:

"And you had to go into the barn." "Yes, and saw wood." "That was your punishment." "Yes." A tear welled in the corner of King's right eye. It slipped down his cheek to the edge of his beard. "The chickens are dead." "The chickens in the barn?" "Yes, them." More tears followed the first. "What killed them?" "Uncle Oren says it was avian flu. Their eyes are open. They're…a little scary." Or perhaps more than just a little, Eddie thought, judging by the tears and the pallor of the man's cheeks. "You couldn't leave the barn?" "Not until I saw my share of the wood. David did his. It's my turn. There are spiders in the chickens. Spiders in their guts, little red ones. Like specks of red pepper. If they get on me I'll catch the flu and die. Only then I'll come back." "Why?" "I'll be a vampire. I'll be a slave to him. His scribe, maybe. His pet writer." "Whose?" "The Lord of the Spiders. The Crimson King, Tower-pent."

The Crimson King would have to turn Stephen King into a vampire first to turn him into a slave, by assassinating him with vampirism-contracting spiders to kill him.

So no, The Crimson King cannot overcome Gan's will and just make Stephen King his slave, he has to kill Stephen King first. And the only way to do that is to overcome Ka. Wanna guess what never happens?

Also, here's a hilariously relevant comment by MrKingofNegativity, the former Dark Tower expert, debunking the rest of the pseudo-evidence I know you want to bring forth: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1549586#59

Just to preempt all that.

But, to your last bit of evidence: with a full Talisman, Jack approaches something akin to God.

With a shard of it, with unknown power, he likely cannot engage the Crimson King. Alright, cool. That shard of Talisman is barely enough to kill Mr Munshun, I hardly think it's this reality-ending thing you are implying it to be.

> You have the evidence placed at your feet. Feel free to drop the passive-agresive smarm yourself whenever you want.

Hilariously, I think there's less of an argument at my feet now than there was before, as you've ignored context to shoehorn your narrative.

Do give the linked thread a read, might catch you up to speed

Y'know, I want to go through all of this and see if I can provide coutnerarguments, but I'm tired and you're acting like a right and true jackass. So literally why bother. Go jump off a ******* bridge, mate. Could catch you up to speed yourself.

 

[AuruilImperator]

Like, I could go ahead and carefully point out how the Big Combination literally can't do whatever the hell you're saying it can supposedly do (Not only that, but another passage directly shows its destruction having an effect on the King, pointing out that they're connected). As for the vampiric thing? That litreally means nothing in any argument about Dis. The passage I brought up was in reference to Dis. The vampiric spiders, like oh-so-much of the nonsensical bullshit you push your rhetoric with, matter increasingly little to that and I think you literally don't care about context yourself. And the fact that you think the Tower falling to release the trapped King (and the Tower being Gan himself brings up so much in that whole point that it's a discussion all its own, not like you'd notice that) doesn't count because it's "fluff" is the shittiest defense for dumb downgrades I have ever seen, so I'm not going to justify it by even attempting to point out where you went wrong beyond saying that the context of the quote is pretty clearly the trapped King escaping the ruins of the infinite Tower to feed on it. Likewise, I'm not bothering with your disregard for the Talisman, because you've proven you can't debate with even a modicum of basic ******* decency.

Tldr: Find a noose and some rafters.

 

[ByAsura]

Somebody shouldn't hang themself just because you disagree with their argument about fiction.

Calm down. This shows how little decency you have, if anything.

Edit: AuruilImperator has been blocked.

 

[Antvasima]

It is too bad that he couldn't behave himself. Some of his points made sense if you removed the tone.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I mean, even if we assume Maturin >>> CK, given that CK embodies chaos throughout the entire multiverse, high 1-B would be an absolute minimum

I still think true CK should be 1-A, but avatar CK should definitely be downgraded

 

[Xulrev]

@Zach

He does not embody chaos though.

A lot of the argumentation that the CK relies upon to be claimed as equal to Gan is flowery language that ignores the simple fact that he needs a millenia long plot and excessive outside help to even assail the beams of the Tower.

The reason I linked a Mrkingofnegativity thread before being told to kill myself twice is that he covered all of this already so theres really no reason for me to argue it again

 

[Xulrev]

@Ant

Sorry if my tone was a bit disrespectful but I simply do not appreciate someone lying about context and purposefully leaving it out just to argue their point better. Its VERY bad debate etiquette and upsets me a bit.

It is a shame though he acted such a way. He seemed to have some idea of what he was talking about which is always useful for an extended dialogue to ensure accuracy

 

[Antvasima]

@Xulrev

Yes. Largely agreed.

 

[Xulrev]

For what it's worth, I ran this thread by MrKing via discord.

He has said he would have argued the exact same things as I do in my OP, and that he has already, in fact, argued against everything Imperator brought up, as I point out.

He didn't seem to mind me asking his input since he could get a laugh out of old debunked points being brought up

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Then your suggestions seem fine.

 

[Xulrev]

@Ant

Since there are few others on-site who can debate for this verse, should I wait to implement these changes or go ahead with the revisions soon?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that this mostly seems fine to apply. Or are there any staff or experienced members listed in The Dark Tower page that you can ask?

 

[Xulrev]

Regrettably, no Staff are in the Dark Tower page, and no staff are on the Knowledgable Member list for it either.

I think I really am just about the only well-read person for this verse anymore. Or at least, the only person left who could keep up with MrKing on it