The Dark Tower CRT: Crimson King Scaling and Randall Flagg Addition

[Antvasima]

Okay. Then it seems fine.

I would appreciate if you create a revision thread for Gan as well.

 

[Xulrev]

I will be working on that within the week, absolutely!

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

It's made very clear CK can destroy the tower

"There is a Tower that binds them in place. Think of it as an axle upon which many wheels spin, if you like. And there is an entity that would bring this Tower down. Ram Abbalah."

CK also scared dandalo who is a demon from todash space

 

[Xulrev]

@Zach

> that would bring this Tower down

This is phrasing that means, literally, 'it is his goal to destroy it'. Please accept the fact that the Crimson King cannot destroy the tower, the entire plot of the Dark Tower series makes it abundantly clear this is not within his capabilities except for with immense aid and millenia of help

 

[OfficialGilgamesh]

how can you mute threads

 

[Xulrev]

Top right, click the 'Following' button in the OP itself to change it and unfollow

 

[OfficialGilgamesh]

thanks mate

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

He can't destroy it because he's sealed by gan

 

[Xulrev]

He can't destroy it because he's sealed by ga

And so he....scales to gan.....by being sealed by the person?

Come on

 

[Antvasima]

Well, to be fair, Gan greatly transcends the Tower.

 

[Xulrev]

Well, to be fair, Gan greatly transcends the Tower.

Absolutely true!

But Zach's argumentation of The Crimson King destroying the tower is without the context of "after millenia of assailing the structures that prevent it from falling with leftover tech from The Ancient Ones bolstered by an army of psychics"

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Okay that's a strawman

I DO NOT think CK should scale to Gan in any way whatsoever. Gan very much is established as being stronger.

However, CK is established as being the main threat to the tower, and it's BECAUSE OF Gan that he can't destroy it

 

[Xulrev]

Okay that's a strawman
I DO NOT think CK should scale to Gan in any way whatsoever. Gan very much is established as being stronger.

However, CK is established as being the main threat to the tower, and it's BECAUSE OF Gan that he can't destroy it

Ah, apologies.

But yes, The Crimson King is a threat to the Tower. That doesn't scale him to it, due to all the mitigating context I've given.

Please refute the actual evidence

 

[OfficialGilgamesh]

tbh Crimson King's true form is in a cell at the top of the tower IIRC. The one using all this technology and the psychic armies is the avatar Los.

 

[OfficialGilgamesh]

Also I'm kinda confused why you downplay the fact that Dis can survive the fall of the tower. The whole text confirms that if the Dark Tower falls, it won't destroy him. Yes it sets him free, but it'd destroy anything else within the tower but not him, because he has enough durability to survive that.

Now he is not on Gans level, but the guy that wants to destroy the Tower is the avatar Los if I'm correct.

I may be wrong.

 

[Xulrev]

tbh Crimson King's true form is in a cell at the top of the tower IIRC. The one using all this technology and the psychic armies is the avatar Los.

He's actually on the third balcony, as seen in The Dark Tower.

The whole text confirms that if the Dark Tower falls, it won't destroy him. Yes it sets him free, but it'd destroy anything else within the tower but not him, because he has enough durability to survive that.

We also have literally no idea what the conditions or qualifiers are for 'surviving the fall of The Dark Tower'. We know, reasonably, that it will be an apocalypse. But we have zero idea on what surviving the collapse of reality qualifies as when it's just a return to the state of things before the Tower existed, a state of things that Crimson King originated from.

 

[OfficialGilgamesh]

tbh Crimson King's true form is in a cell at the top of the tower IIRC. The one using all this technology and the psychic armies is the avatar Los.

He's actually on the third balcony, as seen in The Dark Tower.

The whole text confirms that if the Dark Tower falls, it won't destroy him. Yes it sets him free, but it'd destroy anything else within the tower but not him, because he has enough durability to survive that.

We also have literally no idea what the conditions or qualifiers are for 'surviving the fall of The Dark Tower'. We know, reasonably, that it will be an apocalypse. But we have zero idea on what surviving the collapse of reality qualifies as when it's just a return to the state of things before the Tower existed, a state of things that Crimson King originated from.

I apologize, it's been a while since I've read the books so I get some details wrong from time to time.

Well it would just set him free. The Tower is pretty huge in size and it's destruction would end everything. Crimson King would then be free to do whatever he wants.

"If he - or it - destroys the Tower, won't that defeat his purpose? Won't he destroy his physical being in the process?"

"Just the opposite: he'll set it free to wander what will then be chaos . . . din-tah . . . the furnace. Some parts of Mid-World have fallen into that furnace already." - Black House

Here a "furnace" is mentioned, and some parts have already fallen into it. Nothing here says he needs special tech or other things to survive the fall of the Tower. What comes after the tower we don't know, all we know is that there will be a furnace of some sorts.

My point is that he can survive the Tower, which is pretty impressive given the size of it.

 

[OfficialGilgamesh]

If you want we can also discuss this on discord, I'm always open for having my mind changed.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for keeping a civil tone.

 

[OfficialGilgamesh]

Thank you for keeping a civil tone.

No problem. It's a rule that you have to be civil around here, isn't it?

 

[Antvasima]

Yes.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I agree that surviving the fall of the tower shouldn't be dismissed

And "the crimson king is just on the balcony" is just Los, the avatar CK, who admirably should be downgraded.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

CK also scared Dandalo who is a Pennywise level demon

 

[Xulrev]

CK also scared Dandalo who is a Pennywise level Demon

This is outright untrue on all levels.

@Gilgamesh

It's a 600 storey-tall tower, yes, but surviving that is.....what tier, exactly? And with all of the magic of reality coming unbound, what would we scale him to?

I simply feel Unknow to be the most accurate way of tiering him since there are just SO. MANY. unknowns about the circumstance surrounding any of his alleged 'feats'.

 

[OfficialGilgamesh]

CK also scared Dandalo who is a Pennywise level Demon

This is outright untrue on all levels.
@Gilgamesh

It's a 600 storey-tall tower, yes, but surviving that is.....what tier, exactly? And with all of the magic of reality coming unbound, what would we scale him to?

I simply feel Unknow to be the most accurate way of tiering him since there are just SO. MANY. unknowns about the circumstance surrounding any of his alleged 'feats'.

It's not only 600 floors, it's endless in size. It's only 600 feet from the perspective of other beings if I remember correctly.

 

[Xulrev]

It's not only 600 floors, it's endless in size. It's only 600 feet from the perspective of other beings if I remember correctly. </div> We are discussing its falling from the outside since he is outside of it though. Nothing else scales or is provable

 

[OfficialGilgamesh]

"Yes. His physical being is pent in a cell at the top of the Tower, but he has another manifestation, every bit as real, and this lives in Can-tah Abbalah - the Court of the Crimson King." He is at the top of the tower.

 

[Xulrev]

Yes. That is superceded by the seventh dark tower novel wherein Roland faces him down whilst the King is on the third balcony up

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

why was Omnipresence removed?

 

[Xulrev]

Because there isnt proof of him being omnipresent. The best anyone can give is him being "the embodiment of the Red" which is only heavily supported in the noncanon comics

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Omnipresence being removed makes sense, but

CK scared dandalo. Dandalo felt powerless by an ability th CK used that wasn't even targeted at Dandalo.

 

[Xulrev]

Dandalo, the same being that got shot to death by .45 caliber guns? That Dandalo, of Odd's Lane?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Stephen king himself said Dandelo is of similar nature to Pennywise (in response to being asked if they are the same being)

 

[Xulrev]

Stephen king himself said Dandelo is of similar nature to Pennywise (in response to being asked if they are the same being)

Similar in nature is vague enough as to raise many questions.

Similar to Pennywise's avatar?

Similar as in same sort of demon?

Similar insofar as how they feast on emotions?

It's not enough to scale.

 

[Antvasima]

What is left to do here?

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Surviving the destruction of the Dark Tower would still be a 1-A durability feat if I understand the verse correctly.

Honestly I tend to agree with Zach myself.

 

[Antvasima]

Would he tank the full scale of the destruction point blank? Also, wouldn't destroying the Tower only be High 1-B?

 

[OfficialGilgamesh]

Would he tank the full scale of the destruction point blank? Also, wouldn't destroying the Tower only be High 1-B?

Yes he would survive the entire collapse of the Dark Tower. I don't know about 1-A, I think that the Dark Tower could qualify for low 1-A but it's at least High 1-B.

 

[OfficialGilgamesh]

"Imagine the sand of the Mohaine Desert, which you crossed to find me, and imagine a trillion universes - not worlds but universes - encapsulated in each grain of that desert; and within each universe an infinity of others. We tower over these universes from our pitiful grass vantage point; with one swing of your boot you may knock a billion billion worlds flying off into darkness, a chain never to be completed.

Isn't this pretty much low 1-A? I mean how do you count that kind of infinity?