• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Power Null Revision

Status
Not open for further replies.
8,205
1,937
Decided to make a new thread, since the original one is old and focuses a bit too much on a single verse. The premise is basically; Whether or not we should consider power nullification which negates AP as qualitatively superior to power nullification which has no defined mechanic which allows it to bypass AP.

The Power Nullification page itself details that there are differences between the mechanics and applications of different types of power nullification.

"Power Nullification, or Negation, is the ability to simply nullify the powers and abilities of others, negating their effects. The mechanisms by which this effect is accomplished and their restrictions vary from character to character, but the ability is often limited to a certain type of power, such as supernatural phenomena in general, or magic. In some cases, an ability can only be negated once it's been used or activated, but in others, powers can be nullified before they're even utilized. The effect may be temporary or permanent, and may be restricted by touch, or be something that the user can apply to any ability they see, or within a field that negates any powers within.

Some characters accomplish these effects through applications of other abilities rather than an standalone ability in itself, such as using Power Modification to render powers useless. In addition, there are characters who combine this ability with Power Mimicry to not just seal the abilities of others, but steal them for themselves; this is known as Power Absorption."

What are examples of power nullification which bypasses AP?

Tsunayoshi Sawada turning attacks into stone, and Yogiri Takatou killing magic itself with instant death.

Basically, the idea is that characters who can use abilities which are considered to be durability negation on offense, on defense, should also be assumed to be Attack Potency negation, and that should be considered to be qualitatively superior to power nullification which doesn't display these qualities (Unless, of course, it's higher dimensional).
 
Naeblis495 said:
i don't understand what you mean . Turning attacks into stone is just transmutation
The Power Nullification page itself acknowledges power null which is achieved through other abilities. So yes, it is indeed power null the same way ID is.
 
yeah , but why should be it better than other powernull is what i don't understand

ID kill the concept of whatever it want, preventing it to ever be used again probably, but turning things to stone ain't that impressive if it does just that .

i may need more precision on how the technique work
 
Better in the sense that you are only limited by your transmutation in this case. For example, transmutation in general is not limited by AP and so 9-B power nulling a tier 5 is plausible as tier has nothing to do with the null.
 
^^And so, in that sense wouldn't it be qualitatively superior to power null which isn't proven to have these qualities?
 
yeah , powernull that come from hax is more powerfull than AP powernull , but isn't that a common knowledge ? If you don't resist hax and you're not a higher dimentional being then you're done .
 
You can ask a few administrators and discussion moderators to comment here if you wish.
 
Power Null which negates AP > Power null which doesn't negate AP

So an 8-B character with the former can power null a 5-B character. And one with resistance to the former can resist higher tier power null as well.

Edit:

Also, a 5-B character with resistance to the latter would still be affected by the AP negating power null.
 
I disagree.

Not every ability that is durability negation on offense necessarily overcomes AP on defense, as said in the last thread.

E.g. petrification overcomes defense, but if you shoot a laser at it with more photons per second than the petrification can petrify, said laser still breaks through by pure AP.


Neither do I see a reason why power nullification that ignores AP is "qualitatively superior" rather than being just different. Ultimately one has to compare those things case by case based on mechanism.

In general a power null resistance only blocks the mechanism it demonstrated or which it can block given the mechanism of the resistance.
 
@DT

"but if you shoot a laser at it with more photons per second than the petrification can petrify, said laser still breaks through by pure AP."

We discussed this in the previous thread. That's not an example of it being overcome by AP, that's overcoming it via more area. It's akin to saying someone with large size is overcoming matter manipulation via AP, by virtue of being much larger than the MM can affect.


"Neither do I see a reason why power nullification that ignores AP is "qualitatively superior" rather than being just different. Ultimately one has to compare those things case by case based on mechanism.

In general a power null resistance only blocks the mechanism it demonstrated or which it can block given the mechanism of the resistance."

^This wording is a bit confusing. But, are you saying that power null with different mechanics in general are incomparable to one another? And rather than one being innately being superior, they are just different? Well, I completely disagree with that; because that's not at all how we treat offensive abilities with similar mechanisms.

A 9-B character who can turn a human into mere atoms with a single thought might as well have High 3-A attack potency, because no matter how much more durable a character is, they will always be affected by the 9-B's MM if they don't have resistance to it.

Which automatically makes this, as an attack, superior to any kind of pure AP ability which isn't High 3-A.

Why couldn't this be applied to power nullification?
 
DontTalk seems to have given a reasonable analysis of this.
 
Given DontTalk's analysis, perhaps we should close this thread?
 
I agree that dontalk's exemple wasn't exactly overcoming via AP but sheer matter (a 10-B volley of danmaku would achieve the same as what he described) but he is right to say that it is simply different, not superior.

Turning an attack to stone or negating it's use are different things, and someone that resists one won't resist the other by default.
 
Well, thing is, there are very many different types of Power Null.

From the sounds of it, you think most power nullification are mutually exclusive.

This viewpoint (Which also seems to be how DT views it), is very different from how we currently treat power nullification.

An example of what you're implying would be; someone who resists Asta's power null can't resist Natsu's because "Different mechanics GG".

The whole point of this place is to equalize and standardize stuff like this.
 
No it's not. Power pages are done to give an idea of what a character can do, which is heavily preferred to be specified with in-verse mechanics.

Ability pages are done specifically to be a catch all kind of thing. Holy manipulation varies a heck of a lot, it's just there to give an idea that a character can do that.

As far as I am were, which is not at all, Natsu eats fire while Asta simply cuts down the magic that made it. The two are completely different.
 
Natsu's power null is him burning whatever comes at him which includes time, EE and death somehow ..... but it works and is different to Asta so at least your point still works out.
 
1) So we don't equalize and standardize every other major power? How about Mind Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, and Conceptual Manipulation? We've even done it with abilities which can't be stretched as thin, like Time Manipulation (With the whole, "If you can resist time stop you automatically resist time slow", stuff)

2) You didn't understand my example. Natsu and Asta both have power nullification, but one slashes magic and the other burns it; two different abilities which share the same purpose. With that in mind, I suggest you re-read what I said.
 
We don't equalise those though? If someone dura negs via their really sharp sword and another does it through punching so that the force goes straight at the squishier organs and ignores the outside by transferring the force directly to your organs, resisting one does not make your resist the other. It's like us differentiating between biological or magical versions of a power. The end result could be the same but how you get their is what's important.
 
Well, durability negation is the most broad power on the website next to reality warping. That's flat out impossible to equalize.
 
Mind manipulation mentions how biological and metaphysical mind manip aren't the same. And someone that can only resist memory manip won't suddenly survive mind destruction.

Soul manipulation mechanics are almost exclusively unique to verses. Again, resisting your soul getting crushed won't let you resist, I dunno, it getting erased by an edgy teens' dark blade that returns the Soul of all those it hits to the void of nothingness. You'd need to resist void manipulation to resist that.

Concepts can normally be categorised into the types given, which is why resistance applies similarly to the same types.


If things work the same, then resistances apply the same. But petrification and existence erasure are different, but both could be power null.
 
Those examples you're giving are a bit of a reach.

Resisting magic mind manipulation is nothing like resisting neurosurgery (If that's even a thing anybody can do without being non-corporeal or something). Not even in the same ballpark.

I'm comparing one magic/mystical power nullification to another, not magic power null to power null via slapping the object which gives them power out of their opponents hands; or teleportation BFR verses punching someone to another planet. Those are incomparable.

And whether or not all power null can be handled in the way I suggested is another issue entirely . I don't believe you would have resistance to something like aging an attack out of existence via resisting having your attacks turned into stone. But, I do believe having resistance to your magic attacks being turned to stone would give you resistance to your magic attacks being AZ frozen.

And I think both of those are innately superior to generic power nullification which, per our own rules, cannot be scaled to work on abilities more powerful than it's been shown to be effective against.
 
Basically, what I'm saying is, the abilities themselves might be different and might not work against each other, as far as resistances and extra stuff goes (Although, some will), but they are still >> power null with no defined mechanic which allows it to bypass AP...
 
YungManzi said:
Basically, what I'm saying is, the abilities themselves might be different and might not work against each other, as far as resistances and extra stuff goes (Although, some will), but they are still >> power null with no defined mechanic which allows it to bypass AP...
That is a baseless claim.

That's it. There is zero reason for that to be assumed.
 
Huh? What's baseless exactly?

Me saying power nullification which negates AP is superior to Power Nullification which doesn't?

"There is zero reason for that to be assumed."

No, there's a very obvious reason for it to be assumed. Same reason why Durbaility Negation is always better than any amount of AP (Because it can overcome any traditional base defenses).

Unless we want to say that's not the case, then we'd be having a different argument.
 
Powernull that negates AP has no reason to be considered inherently superior though. It's just powernull that happens to be applicable to AP, it being able to negate AP shouldn't mean that its superior to powernull that doesn't negate AP unless its shown to be superior within the story.

Dura neg isn't always better than any amount of AP btw, 3d dura neg doesn't work on tier 1s for instance. And either way, that comparison doesn't really make sense? Like, how does dura neg letting you hurt tougher opponents mean that powernull which happens to extent to AP is superior to powernull that doesn't
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top