Nights upgrade 2-B-2 Nightmarish Boogaloo

Just in case Continued from here https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3711936?useskin=oasis#501

I never would even DREAM that this would take so long.

Is this even needed though? The upgrades were ready to go through and were widely accepted.

Yes they have and DDM is only repeating things already agreed and most already agree as well

Also why is Hammer person oppinion even a realible argument against it? Especialy since he disagreed because of the number, not even any of your argument, also the fact it's literaly just his opinion like everyone in favor

it's not, it still doesn't debunk dreams being worlds and he's using occam's razor to offer something off the rails, occam's razor answers questions through inference of what's already shown not more questions without conclusion

I'll discuss in detail later. And he's legit trying to help and not doing anything bad; he's not word of god, but anyone's input who's willing to help is welcome. We don't discriminate here.

wait so if I relayed zastando's messages (whom suddenly vanished for some odd reason) that'd be okay?

As long as they're more so contributive or constructive; I'd very strongly advise against making posts that are more that are dozens of paragraphs long and make sure links are properly organized. I already explained in detail that pushing for Tier 1 stuff and all that is not going anywhere. But sharing simply stuff is pretty harmless.

DarkDragonMedeus said:

As long as they're more so contributive or constructive; I'd very strongly advise against making posts that are more that are dozens of paragraphs long and make sure links are properly organized. I already explained in detail that pushing for Tier 1 stuff and all that is not going anywhere. But sharing simply stuff is pretty harmless.

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contributive and constructive along with the lines you gave is subjective. he could push for it if the links and stuff are reasonable and critical, whether it goes anywhere would do with time, it's harmful if it breaks the rules. anyway let's get back to the subject.

I agree with DDM that this Tier 1 talk should be saved for later. 2-B is what this is about, and to derail with that at this point is just prolinging this.

To summarize, "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-B" was proposed and accepted by Sera and hesitantly accepted by AKM that it was fine (even if he personally might still disagree). I believe there's little to no reason to not have this go through, as the opposition has A) Fallen out of touch with the thread (Like Pritti), B) Has ignored several arguments for it being 2-B, and C) Has repeated arguments over and over that have been dismissed and ultimately lead nowhere with the result of the thread.

So to get straight to the point, unless somebody is going to either debunk Mephistus' points or give new arguments, there's no reason for this to be more than 50 points long. There is next to nothing left to discuss here, and feels as if this is getting dragged out for the slim chance that 2-B won't happen despite the previously mentioned solution being completely acceptable.

But Antvasima wanted the ignored Pro 2-B arguments brought up to the table once more before the previous thread ended, so I guess that's happening.

ShakeResounding said:

I agree with DDM that this Tier 1 talk should be saved for later. 2-B is what this is about, and to derail with that at this point is just prolinging this.
To summarize, "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-B" was proposed and accepted by Sera and hesitantly accepted by AKM that it was fine (even if he personally might still disagree). I believe there's little to no reason to not have this go through, as the opposition has A) Fallen out of touch with the thread (Like Pritti), B) Has ignored several arguments for it being 2-B, and C) Has repeated arguments over and over that have been dismissed and ultimately lead nowhere with the result of the thread.

So to get straight to the point, unless somebody is going to either debunk Mephistus' points or give new arguments, there's no reason for this to be more than 50 points long. There is next to nothing left to discuss here, and feels as if this is getting dragged out for the slim chance that 2-B won't happen despite the previously mentioned solution being completely acceptable.

But Antvasima wanted the ignored Pro 2-B arguments brought up to the table once more before the previous thread ended, so I guess that's happening.

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Yeah I Know, I'm playing the cards right though, I even said such a subject is derailing the thread, it was a yes or no answer. I never even mentioned tier 1, don't put that on me. The point is if ZaStando wanted a message put through and through as long as it's reasonable it's all fine, no matter the stats there's no official rule stopping it, let's just move on from this it's getting more deeper than it needs to and it's derailing the thread.

and I agree, this has been a 2 month long thread, and we've proven our points and nothing debunks it and we've debated that through those 2 months.

it is although it's kind of a "ah s**t here we go again" scenario. let's just run through it already.

DarkDragonMedeus said:

Someone messaged me on community central to also give his side, and I also think he's being reasonable here. Also, Sera has basically admitted she hasn't really read the interview in depth and was just rolling by what people were saying and doesn't fully understand the details. Not that it's her fault, but still.

It's already mentioned in the sca and the interview that it's describing the "World of Dreams" to be a mirror to the Waking World. Which only the Waking World, and the entirety of the World of Dreams have enough statements to be entire universes. None of the individual Dream Worlds are stated to be universes. Owl says things like "Your Dream World" and uses "World to describe the Waking World, which also could refer to Earth as they humans are obviously from Earth. But he never said their Dream Worlds were the same size or shape as the Waking World. Only the entirety of Dream Worlds has that statement about being the same size as the Real World.

I've been reading every world you guys have been typing for a while now, and I honestly feel like I'm one of the few people who are actually reading the full details. We aren't "Angry Boomers", we're just doing our jobs to see if they meet the guidelines. And the circular arguments, bold accusations, and many other things aren't helping the cause. Also, if you're going to use "Angry Boomer" as an argument. I could turn this around and say you guys are acting like a bunch of aggressive stoners throwing rocks at public speakers just for trying to manage things peacefully; albeit saying things that are unpopular. "Killing the messenger" is never a plausible tactic.

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I am quoting Medeus' post from the last thread to state that I agree about that he is just trying to maintain proper standards for the wiki, and shouldn't be lambasted for that. If the dream worlds have not been explicitly stated to be of universal size, we probably shouldn't count them as such. Also, as I mentioned earlier, please stop seeing this as a competition, and rather switch to trying to peacefully collaborate to find the most reliable statistics instead.

I don't care as long it is relevant to the task.

world of dreams is dream worlds and has been shown such, there's entirety anything there's more than one world of dreams which are dreams themselves, world of dreams doesn't contain dreams in no way but have gateways and passes to others which are outright in context matched to how NiGHT'S World is described and No... only NiGHTS World, And The World of Nightmare are compared to The "Waking" World and as said before they are dreams, you need specific evidence all dream's, world's and such only account to one universe, material and word of god must agree with one another.

don't derail the thread jimbo, i'm not commenting on the other things.

"If the dream worlds have not been explicitly stated to be of universal size, we probably shouldn't count them as such. Also, as I mentioned earlier, please stop seeing this as a competition, and rather switch to trying to peacefully collaborate to find the most reliable statistics instead."

NiGHTS Dimension is a Dream dawg, other dreams are other worlds to it and universal in context. how is this so hard to grasp? also we're collaborating in method of debating, we've been over this ant, Medeus is literally our only obstacle and if it was any other verse unrelated to sega; it would be done already because there's no hate boner.

Medeus doesn't hate Sega. He just disagrees with you, since this goes against our usual standards for this sort of thing.

Antvasima said:

Medeus doesn't hate Sega. He just disagrees with you, since this goes against our usual standards for this sort of thing.

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uh-huh, it's more than disagreement chief but he clearly has a bias against anything sega related I can name like 16 unrelated threads where medeus blatantly accepted it despite having the same qualifying factors as this hence being dishonest, if not a hate boner, it's a bias. let's ask the real questions, why is medeus the only active opposer? he's the 1% keeping us from achieving a very simple goal. it's dishonesty and bias.

uh-huh, it's more than disagreement chief but he clearly has a bias against anything sega related I can name like 16 unrelated threads where medeus blatantly accepted it despite having the same qualifying factors as this hence being dishonest, if not a hate boner, it's a bias. let's ask the real questions, why is medeus the only active opposer? he's the 1% keeping us from achieving a very simple goal. it's dishonesty and bias.

I don't particularly care for NiGHTS but attacks towards others is unwarranted, not to mention this is irrelevant towards the debate at hand and falls under essentially a Appeal To Motive

@ImagineBreaker, this is completely false, as some verses such as ToeJam & Earl and Shinobi, I actually have looked for legitimate feats to upgrade them. I'm a fan of classic video games in general, which actually happens to include Sega. And also, my taste in a franchise or company has never had any correlation to my viewpoint on upgrades or downgrades, I just look at the in depth details, read between lines, and judge it based on the information provided. I would be rejecting it all the same even if the verse wasn't Sega and uses the same context. And if a Sega franchise actually used the more elaborate context used in some of the other mentioned verses where the individual "Worlds" were accepted as universes, I actually would have accepted the upgrade. Me and Matt have also both supported Sonic upgrades before, because on some of those threads, the information was legit. And we've also been against Sonic downgrades before, such as the fact that Low 2-C Darkspine for instance is definitely legit.

Side note, the 99% Vs 1% is a serious exaggeration, it's more like 15% to 20% as several others also agree with me, and it's not like there are more than a 100 users who debated here, there's less than 30 people. But the voting percentage isn't what matters. If a voting contest goal was to find a healthy nutritious meal where the majority wanted to eat fast food hamburgers or pizza, where as the minority suggested something actually healthy like Salmon and Kale. Then the minority should be what's decided as the evidence points to Salmon and Kale being the healthy meal.

Back to the main topic at hand, both sides are literally being redundant to be perfectly honest. Being "Parallel Worlds" or "Parallel Dimensions" isn't quite enough for them to be universes even if they're larger than planet sized without more elaborate context. The Light World and Dark World from Zelda aren't considered Universes despite using such context; same with the Wind Fish's Dream World. And the Quantum Spaces from Castlevania, they're stated to be mirrors and they have starry skies within them, but they're not considered Universes anymore. They're not like Jojo's Bizarre Adventure or Pokemon, where all the "Worlds" are outright stated to be entire alternate realities or entire timelines. So the individual Dream Worlds being called "Worlds" in the same speech as Waking World being called World doesn't quite hold up.

Once again, the two main scans haven't really changed anything. It still says the entire World of Dreams is what mirrors the Real World, and not any of the individual dreams inside it. I already have addressed Mephistus' points in detail and what he's doing is no different. He's also constantly bringing up the same points over and over again and hasn't exactly proved the individual dream worlds are universe sized. And yes, I watched the videos which Sera outright said she hasn't actually watched them and was just going off what you guys were giving to her.

The Owl is simply calling the boy and the girl's dreams Worlds, he didn't say those dreams mirrored the world they came from. In fact, Earth is also a "World" and is clearly where the kids came from. Yes, in the scans, Waking World clearly referred to the Universe, but when Owl was like "You came from the same world as the boy?" It's unknown of world referred to Earth or the Universe. The Earth is a world within another world, so the use of the word world isn't entirely consistent here. And Owl also calls the World of Dreams a world containing worlds.

Back to square one, the World of Dreams has more than enough proof to be an entire universe, but none of the Dream Worlds within them are called universes or individually stated to mirror the universe in any way shape or form. And further more, there's also 0 evidence of any of the Dream Worlds having space time shenanigans. The "Search in the sea of Darkness forever" is far too vague to qualify as having it's own timeline. Because "Search in something forever" is just a fancy way of saying "There's no way out alive."

So in conclusion, At least 3-A, possibly '2-C or just 2-C seems to be the best option here.

It wasn't an attack but i'm merely stating a common motif/trope that goes around while requesting revisions for sega related characters and it's comparison to other likeness and then Medeus' part in it, and don't pin this on me, everyone is pointing fingers and including me, i'm just stating the viewpoints, it may not be clear but there's a bias that is noticeable. also there's no war going on, medeus called the supporters children and made a false accusation of being called a boomer although if that's sincere and true I apologize.

Also, I didn't call people children, and actually, me and Matt were called boomers which I could quote it. We said that we could have said you guys act like people who stone us, not that you are. Anyway, need to run to work.

ShakeResounding said:

I agree with DDM that this Tier 1 talk should be saved for later. 2-B is what this is about, and to derail with that at this point is just prolinging this.

To summarize, "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-B" was proposed and accepted by Sera and hesitantly accepted by AKM that it was fine (even if he personally might still disagree). I believe there's little to no reason to not have this go through, as the opposition has A) Fallen out of touch with the thread (Like Pritti), B) Has ignored several arguments for it being 2-B, and C) Has repeated arguments over and over that have been dismissed and ultimately lead nowhere with the result of the thread.

So to get straight to the point, unless somebody is going to either debunk Mephistus' points or give new arguments, there's no reason for this to be more than 50 points long. There is next to nothing left to discuss here, and feels as if this is getting dragged out for the slim chance that 2-B won't happen despite the previously mentioned solution being completely acceptable.

But Antvasima wanted the ignored Pro 2-B arguments brought up to the table once more before the previous thread ended, so I guess that's happening.

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Reposting this, Medeus is repeating yourself, Mephisto only does that because you keep using the same arguments thus he literaly has to repeat himself to counter them, people in the last thread literaly had to quote the previous arguments to refute you

This is circular and repetitive, most already agreed with the proposition, arguing circular arguments so they won't be applied because you are a mod arguing against it is stonewalling and trying to win something via attriction when this can already easily be solved

duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuudeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

that's a long booty-cheeks wall of text. and i'm in nasty wifi, chill out bro. and implying a group is equivalent to stoners is kinda bad tho tbh

also I am sorry to hear that, and i'm sorry, if you're really busy come back when that work is over.

as for your arguments

"Side note, the 99% Vs 1% is a serious exaggeration, it's more like 15% to 20% as several others also agree with me, and it's not like there are more than a 100 users who debated here, there's less than 30 people. But the voting percentage isn't what matters. If a voting contest goal was to find a healthy nutritious meal where the majority wanted to eat fast food hamburgers or pizza, where as the minority suggested something actually healthy like Salmon and Kale. Then the minority should be what's decided as the evidence points to Salmon and Kale being the healthy meal."

Except I never said it was, this ain't no ad populum but I coupled that along with the arguments and how it's going in our favor and the stretching took much longer than it should have.

anyhow next point jimbo.

"Back to the main topic at hand, both sides are literally being redundant to be perfectly honest. Being "Parallel Worlds" or "Parallel Dimensions" isn't quite enough for them to be universes even if they're larger than planet sized without more elaborate context. The Light World and Dark World from Zelda aren't considered Universes despite using such context; same with the Wind Fish's Dream World. And the Quantum Spaces from Castlevania, they're stated to be mirrors and they have starry skies within them, but they're not considered Universes anymore. They're not like Jojo's Bizarre Adventure or Pokemon, where all the "Worlds" are outright stated to be entire alternate realities or entire timelines. So the individual Dream Worlds being called "Worlds" in the same speech as Waking World being called World doesn't quite hold up"

parallel worlds means parallel universe and parallel dimension also means alternate dimension, also i've said before that waking world is referring to a universe, they don't even refer to or even imply a planet, what else could it be? context leads to Universe Jimbo. SeraEX even says if you agree with Universe Sized NiGHTS Dimension and can't debunk it, "possibly 2-B" is in the air, that's the edge recognized.

"Once again, the two main scans haven't really changed anything. It still says the entire World of Dreams is what mirrors the Real World, and not any of the individual dreams inside it. I already have addressed Mephistus' points in detail and what he's doing is no different. He's also constantly bringing up the same points over and over again and hasn't exactly proved the individual dream worlds are universe sized. And yes, I watched the videos which Sera outright said she hasn't actually watched them and was just going off what you guys were giving to her."

there's no "entire" in any of those lmfao, anyways, the world of dreams is NiGHTS Dimension which works and strives with other Dreams which is called a Dream itself and a Dreamworld, only one of the multiple dreams created and shifted by the input of the collective unconscious your own scans even says it's not dreams themselves, I said this in the last thread lol.

"The Owl is simply calling the boy and the girl's dreams Worlds, he didn't say those dreams mirrored the world they came from. In fact, Earth is also a "World" and is clearly where the kids came from. Yes, in the scans, Waking World clearly referred to the Universe, but when Owl was like "You came from the same world as the boy?" It's unknown of world referred to Earth or the Universe. The Earth is a world within another world, so the use of the word world isn't entirely consistent here. And Owl also calls the World of Dreams a world containing worlds."

again NiGHTS Dimension is a Dream itself and one of many in the plane of dreams, Other Dreams called "Worlds" in the same context of NiGHTS' which is a universe, occam's razor concludes it's all by default universes until showcased otherwise, if NiGHTS dimension is closely associated with a at least universe sized realm/universe and it's a dream and called a world then everything else as a default is explanatory. If NiGHTS dimension is a world containing worlds then what to do? it would be larger than 2-C that's for sure and considering it's just one faction in the plane of dreams that says alot.

my conclusion stays the same.

> Being "Parallel Worlds" or "Parallel Dimensions" isn't quite enough for them to be universes even if they're larger than planet sized without more elaborate context. The Light World and Dark World from Zelda aren't considered Universes despite using such context; same with the Wind Fish's Dream World.

Then how does Majora's Mask Link have 3-A key despite coming from a "Parallel world", Termina?

Gonna summarily restate the pro 2-B side's arguments that still aren't getting refuted or even addressed despite bold claims about them being addressed in detail. The last thread already came to conclude with these points with mods agreeing on their posts in the thread itself for a compromise, although now I guess we aren't gonna let the beaten horse die and conclude with a definite tier and stretch this out verbatim.

1.There is a direct comparison between the world that holds the Dream Gate and the completely separate world of Will's dream that was made by a Nightopian since the Dream Gate existed retroactively and other dreams can only be reached in the Night Gate via the portal doors that are continually made when humans start to dream and the dream is made. That Helen refers to Will's world she goes to inside the NIGHT Dimension as "another world" means that the separate world Helen is currently is in (the world that holds the Dream Gate) is directly equivalent since "another" *insert noun* is a to say an additional, one that can be used in place of the former, and alternative of the first noun. Will's dream is separate from the world holding the Dream Gate. Mr. Owl directly relates the world that is holding the Dream Gate and the world that the kids come from being commensurable with his quote to Will when he firsts meets him: "Visitor from another world, welcome." That any one of the individual worlds/dreams making up the Night Dimension are comparable to the real world / world that the kids come from is clearly obvious that the entirity of the Night Dimension is comprised of as many universes as there are individual humans each dreaming at worst. Medues claim(s) that the real world is equivalent in size to the entirity of the Night Dimension falls flat when direct equivalencies are repeatedly made by characters and WOG with a subset of the Night Dimension to being the equivalent to the existence of our world.

"Nightopians are carefree, happy inhabitants of Nightopia. They're born every time balls of light (called Ideya) collide. The sole reason for their existence is to have fun. Because they are incapable of doing anything else, they have no need to work together or to cooperate towards a common goal. As a result, they have no leader, and no language. What they do have, is the ability to see the consciousness of each visitor (dreamers from our world), through Ideya. When visitors arrive, the Nightopians can see their consciousness and recreate the happy world that is hidden deep inside. They're why Nightopians, who don't have the capacity for intelligent thought, can sing, dance, and even go fishing."

Multiple worlds make up The Night Dimension and that ours is directly compared to 1 dream is evident that this is 2-B tier at worst.

2. Everyone in the NGHTS series refers to the "world" that the humans come from as interchangebly called reality / reality / reality / the real world / waking world / world . World means universe in context. That Medues is claiming that the "your world" Mr. Owl states is referring to the kid's planet is absolutely backed up nowhere in context or any scan by the characters in context and is laughable if we know the size of individual comparable worlds in context is by sheer visuals being multi -galactic . The planet Earth is not "another" of a galactic cluster nor would you sensibly need to reinforce calling it "real" if it were just referring to our material planet. It has to be referring to the real aspects of our dimension if you guys are gonna argue that side of it. This is reaching so far to find a definition that doesn't fit universe by the anti-2-B side since the kid's come from an entirely separate plane, dimension, and reality. Continually we brought up examples of "world" that refers to the existence of the human's dimension; being that "dreams and reality" are separately called one another by Wizeman. That reality is used commonly to refer to the entirity of our universe doesn't need to be pointed out when its on the scale of copying our world's cosmos for each subset does it? It is extremely direct to conclude 2-B tier here as the Night Dimension is a bunch of separate dream worlds which are referred to as worlds and that the analogy that the dream worlds exist close to the real world is, at worst, meaning that each individual one is material and not imaginary as evident that the Night Dimension's worlds are said by Owl to feel real because they are real. It is entirely semantics that peeps don't understand that "another" is a synonym for alternate or one more of the same. Heck, swap out "another" used as a synonym in series for "alternate" and "reality" used as a synonym in series for "world" and you get to infer its meaning "alternate reality" for each individual world. This isn't rocket science.

3. This last point is utilizing the interview that is used to just further conclude each dream is its own copy of our reality based off what is clearly our real life reality referred to here by the WOG as to what is being copied in context and what each person is copying when they individually dream. That peeps claim to equilize all dreams being dreamed by individuals to be equal to the sum of 1 reality/universe doesn't work when they are separate and its an umbrella statement for each dream being an individual recreation of reality, which we define as a Low 2-C construct. If you wanna say it's piece of reality, then point out where it says the word piece in the quote below to back up your claim because all I'm seeing is the bolded word reality with no arbitrary reason to assume its lesser than what's stated.

"Naka: Well, the very first designs that Oshima drew were very different from where we ended up. He interpreted the theme in a more fantastic way, a fantasy world of dreams. When I saw that, I told him that no one really has dreams like that. Dreams are usually closer to reality, and bear more of a resemblance to one's inner psyche and subconscious. Everyone dreams, so I said let's try and create a more natural image, something closer to the dreams we all have. The world of NiGHTS (in this game at least) derives from that way of thinking.

Iizuka: Since this was a world of "dreams" we were depicting—the mysterious world of the unconscious—we had to understand the whole thing before we could begin creating it. Take an island. If it's a real island, it's easy enough to create. Once we settled on the "dream" concept, though, it meant we had to design and create every detail of that island ex nihilo.

Nidcom: NiGHTS is considered to be one the most magical, inspiring and mischievous characters Sonic Team ever created, continuing on through dreams long after the game has been won. Has NiGHTS ever appeared in your own dreams?"

^

this is gonna be a long weekend fellas

ElixirBlue said:

> Being "Parallel Worlds" or "Parallel Dimensions" isn't quite enough for them to be universes even if they're larger than planet sized without more elaborate context. The Light World and Dark World from Zelda aren't considered Universes despite using such context; same with the Wind Fish's Dream World.Then how does Majora's Mask Link have 3-A key despite coming from a "Parallel world", Termina?

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Explictly needing to call something a universe gets thrown to the wind if its just called a world if the world term has sufficient evidence and interchangebility with when its referring to sets of multiple dimensions with worlds and one world/dimension is a known universe.

Using the words parallel/another to show parity is hardly being set as some new standard here.

And there we have it. Mephistus' most recent long post has everything that remains and cannot be disputed through any stretch of logic imaginable. This doesn't need to be dragged out any longer.

again me, user and mephistus ended what should've been an immediate wrap up and application a month ago or longer, literally. seriously this is becoming underwhelming lol.

let's not also forget that NiGHTS and dreams came from our dreams as well.

"Yuji Naka: Of course. NiGHTS came from your dreams too. Being so, NiGHTS will keep living for a long time."

compiling this with freud's, holtz, and jung's theories, then all the supporting evidence and 2-B is undeniable. PERIOD. this needs to stop, it is irrefutable unless the words of gods defend otherwise. there, works like f****** magic.

I just read Mephistus' explanation, but do not understand where the concrete evidence for that all dreams are universe-sized is. It seems like speculation, and against our usual standards, if only the term "world" was used. In addition, the size of the environment in real world dreams is usually quite limited compared to yourself.

I'm writing a longer post right before I sleep, but will counter the argument before that.

Okay. Thanks.

Antvasima said:

I just read Mephistus' explanation, but do not understand where the concrete evidence for that all dreams are universe-sized is. It seems like speculation, and against our usual standards, if only the term "world" was used. In addition, the size of the environment in real world dreams is usually quite limited compared to yourself.

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You missed the part where Mephistus gave literal evidencenas to why the term "world" stills means universe, and I feel like you weren't paying close enough attention to the entire previous thread at that rate. Even Sera agrees with universal-sized dreams based on the evidence goven, so I don't understand what your problem is with what's been given.

Well, universe-sized human dreams do not make any sense in itself, so we preferably need this explicitly spelled out, not based on speculative interpretation.

@TheUser789, and yes; I also have to constantly repeat myself because people keep repeating the same baseless assumptions over and over again with no concrete evidence. I don't have to prove a negative; asking me to prove they aren't universe size is a negative and asking you guys to prove they're universe sized is a positive. The positive is what requires evidence.

@imagineBreaker Parallel World doesn't mean parallel universes by default. Plenty of verses are rated as simply Tier 4 despite numerous uses of the word "Parallel World". If there was more context that the words are parallel to the Universe, then sure. But simply being parallel to each other is not proof of them being universes. Castlevania, most "Worlds" in Legend of Zelda, Dark Aether, some of the various parallel worlds in Kirby, they all make use of the term "Parallel World" and non of them were excepted as universes.

Nights is set in the world of dreams. Not dreams themselves, or the all the levels would keep changing location all the time and you'd never be able to tell what's going on. And just as you'd be about to complete it, you'd wake up. No, Nights is set in the actual plane of dreams called the Night dimension. According to Sonic Team's thinking this is a dimension that exists close to our corporal three-dimensional environment. It has, they say, no shape. Sega are taking their tip from German Parapsychologist Freidrich Hoist's text "Traum", which states Night Dimension is shaped by the constantly shifting input of the collective human conscious (or unconscious that would be) present.

This quote from this sca once again is 100% referring to the entire world containing all the dreams as the one and only thing that's actually mirroring the universe. This 100% goes against all of your arguments and 100% supports my claim.

@ElixerBlue, Termina is literally described as an alternate reality, not just a dimension or parallel world. And one of the recent books apparently outright called it a parallel universe. That being said, Majora's tier is actually being quested given that "Corrupting the Universe" isn't quite a Universal feat.

@Mephistus literally nothing new was brought up here. It had a lot of thought and hard work put into it, but the information still doesn't hold up. The Owl calls Will visitor from another world yes; he comes from the Waking World and from Earth which is in the Waking World. The Owl then goes on to say he's in The World of Dreams. The Night Dimension containing all the dreams put together a world, and he's also calling the individual dreams worlds; such as Will's and Helen's. This alone proves that the word world isn't static at all. "World means universe, but it also means multiverse" Vs "World means Universe, but it also means something less than a universe". This is basically the primary debate here.

"Nightopians creating there happy world out of their consciousness" is too vague to qualify. It just means making their dreams come to light. They have a world inside their mind that's being recreated. But a world inside ones mind is a pocket reality until it can be proved the size of a universe. It's especially Dream Worlds and Virtual Worlds that absolutely require universe statements in order to be considered universes.

Again, "Dreams becoming true in reality" is not the same thing as saying "Dreams are turned into realities". In other words, it's just vague context. And yes, the dream worlds are bigger than planet sized; the first video has a few disk like things to qualify as 3-B sized, and the second video has a Nebula, which is an interstellar cloud of gas to qualify as 4-A sized. But they're simply called worlds, or another worlds, they aren't called "Worlds that are parallel to the Real World" only the entire world of dreams is called parallel to our Universe.

Once again, I'm asked to prove a negative. When I same I make my dreams become reality, that doesn't by default mean I create entire universes. Or becoming closer to reality just means making a non-existent object exist. That has nothing to do with entire universes/timelines being created. So by default, to make something "Become Reality" or to make something "Closer to Reality" has becoming part of reality as the default meaning. Semantics is very important; it's not the same as "Dreams are turned into realities" or other similar dialogue.

The rest of the interview stuff don't really contribute much. Comparing an Island to a Universe doesn't quite hold a lot of weight; and yes, even pocket realities less than planet size exist. There exist a dimension where it'only shown and Island and it's not called a pocket reality but a world, then it could be Island level. World also means country or region IRL. The Americas + Australia are called "The New World" with Europe + Asia + Africa is called "The Old World".

But once again, the interview still never said anything about the individual dream worlds mirroring the real world; but more so the world of dreams mirroring the real world. Massive upgrades require a lot more assumptions than the not so great upgrades. Upgrading characters to 2-B based on this context is the same thing as making most verses that say "Infinite number of dimensions" as being High 1-B as opposed to 2-A; we go by the latter without in depth context.

I think that Medeus seems to make sense.

And it has been proved and accepted by mostly everyone including staff, if both of you are repeating yourselfs then stonewalling is happening when a conclusions was already reached and accepted and only you are arguing for it using arguments you yourself are repeating it

A conclusion hasn't been reached. Medeus seems to be correct about that this goes against our standard procedures for this kind of thing.

He is the only one, even other staff have agreed and accepted a conclusions, at this point it isn't a agreement but Medeus saying yes or no and only him