Anima: Beyond Revisions (Major Verse-wide Changes)

So I said I'd do this a while ago, and after reading through probably 99% of the translated material, playing through the video game + dlc content, and even deciphering through some of the untranslated WoG, I feel like I'm finally ready to at least get this revision started.

The simplest and easiest issues to deal with is what I'll start off with.

The next few issues are the ones I expect to be more contentious or otherwise difficult than the above, but these are pretty relevant issues to the verse as a whole that need to be addressed.

The Over Reliance of Game Mechanics for Stats and Scaling
Is probably the biggest issue with the current profiles, and not immediately the easiest one to answer. As far as I'm aware, the majority if not all profiles currently use their in-game "Attack Ability" statistic in relation to other characters with actual proper feats in order to scale to or around them. The practice should already sound faulty enough on its own, but is actually worse in context, since Attack Ability itself in game equally relies on attributes like speed and accuracy, and is even boosted by abilities like Time Manipulation and Precognition, which obviously have nothing to do with AP. Additionally, in game stats and levels, if taken as any measure of power scaling, actually contradict the legitimate feats characters perform in-game as well as the lore. For instance, Red Lady (Anima: Beyond Fantasy) is encountered by both The Nameless and Ergo Mundus throughout GoM, and while she's explicitly stated to be unable to defeat any of the Messengers on her own, she'as repeatedly shown to be able to keep up with both John and Ergo in combat if only temporarily. She held her own against the Bearer long enough to stall for prolonged periods of time, and can create magical barriers that even Ergo can't break through with brute force. She was even able to mortally wound The Nameless near the end of Gate of Memories... She's currently High 7-C to Ergo and Nameless's High 6-B because her in game stats are close to Chtho. And this is only one of many numerous examples of awful scaling via game mechanics. If this was the only topic of the thread, I'd list more, but I think you likely get the point.

Like I said, this issue isn't immediately easily solved for characters without actual legitimate scaling for those with feats, but I do have three possible solutions to propose.

1. (which is my personal preferred option). Just don't scale via stats... period. I know this might seem a little strict, but it's clear that the in game stats are inconsistent with the actual feats, or at the very least can't reliably be used for scaling. In this case, we only scale feats to those with statements or valid implications of being scaleable to each other. And those who don't scale to anyone? Well, use their own feats when applicable, even if they're unimpressive. In lack of feats, use the safest assumptions. It's what real world references are there for.

2. (And I'm only proposing this because I don't see the harm in it in the off-chance no contradictions actually arise). For characters without any other legitimate method of scaling, and only those characters, so long as their in-game statistics don't contradict actual legitimate feats or lore, this kind of scaling might be okay? I don't exactly encourage the idea, but I don't see the harm in doing so as a last possible scenario for those with absolutely no other option. Again, I personally don't really consider it to be the best or most accurate method, but in certain select cases, it could honestly be the best one we've got I suppose.

3. The stats can be used as a baseline for those without feats or scaling by using the environmental damage indicated by fights at their level as a guideline. For instance, 150+ and 200+ seem to be different degrees of Wall Level, 300+ creates shockwaves that can shatter buildings, and 400+ "shakes creation" and sparks flying from blows produce "enormous craters". If we use this as a baseline rather than the feats a specific character, it doesn't cause any contradiction.

I should definitely clarify that while I prefer option 1 or 3, in the end I'm fully neutral about which one of these or even a potential third option gets decided on. The biggest issue here for me is that this type of scaling seems to be taking priority over and even contradicting the more legitimate methods available to us.

Now then, the last thing I want to bring up is actually relatively simple.

Anima has Tier 2 feats
How far into tier 2? Well there's a number of feats, which genuinely range from Low 2-C to potentially High 2-A and literally everything in between. I honestly wish I was joking. Below I'll list the ones I can recall from lowest to highest, but some will obviously be more straight-forward than others.

I want to make it particularly clear that I don't personally believe in every single one of these being correct, at least without further context, but for argument's sake, I've included even the questionable ones just so that all of the relevant information regarding tier 2 stuff is there. Assume that I'm proposing all of this be accepted, and shoot down the ones you think of as nonsensical.

Low 2-C
Tawil creates isolated timelines when invoked. "Different timeline" and "infinite universe" are both specifically used to describe the place the target is BFR'd to so this is pretty blatant. Tawil is the Aeon embodying the concept of time and space, and is actually one of the strongest beings in verse who isn't a Shajad/Beryl or above. Definitely not an outlier, though these types of feats are pretty consistent so it probably wouldn't be one regardless. The Dragon (Anima: Beyond Fantasy) and stronger characters like the Shajad/Beryls would scale to this.

Prison of Light and Prison of Darkness. These spells "Enclose the target in a separate universe with no interaction to our own." Said universes can actually be destroyed in-game by producing some pretty absurd amounts of damage. This one is admittedly more questionable than Tawil's feat above, but it being a universe is consistent with the number of universe level feats in-verse and makes just enough sense in context to not be an outlier. Prison of Light and Darkness are both examples of "Divine Magic" which is flat out stated to be too powerful for mortals to use. The only characters that would have access to spells like these are ones who already scale to similar feats or better. As the originator of magical spells in general, Etheldrea should be capable of producing both of these, and through the wonderful web of powerscaling that is Gate of Memories, just about every Messenger scales, as does everyone comparable to them. Of course, this isn't the only feat this applies to so let's carry on.

2-C
If Baal were to fully manifest itself into the world, it would "merge with existence", engulfing everything and turning reality into a "true hell". This never actually happened, but Etheldrea, The Nameless, and some other big names were involved in the combined effort to stop it, battling against Baal's incomplete form, and managing to seal its true form before it was too late. Etheldrea and Elienai were among those responsible for said sealing, so the potency of such abilities for them should scale. Outside of that, obviously the Beryls and such are above this.

Rah nearly destroys "all of creation", forcing C'iel and Gaira themselves to intervene before it's too late. "All of creation" in this context is implicitly a big deal considering that the absolute god tiers themselves needed to step in in order to stop it. Even though the destruction of existence as a whole was stopped, both the physical and spiritual/conceptual world were threatened and even irreparably affected by this event. The threat Ergo Mundus posed is later directly compared to this event, and in the bad ending for Gate of Memories, it's implied that he goes on to end all of existence himself. As before, thanks to Gate of Memories, just about every Messenger scales for either being directly stated to be comparable or above him like Bringreus, actually fighting him and not getting stomped, like Jonathan Kappel and Nascal Mehirim, or both, like Malekith, Prince of Crows.

Powers in the Shadow possess technology and magic superior to what Rah used to threaten reality, and if the individual factions comprising these Powers fought among each other, all of existence would be irreparably torn apart with nothing left behind. Following the activation of Rah's machine, the Powers split the reality into three individual planes of existence. Ergo Mundus's power was respected by The Imperium to the point that they tried to recruit him. Yada yada scales to every other Messenger blah blah.

2-B
The "Dream Walker" ability refers to an individual's dream as their "oneiric universe", which would mean countless universes exist somewhere inside their own areas of The Wake. Since this is the only instance of dreams themselves being referred to as "universes", it's more than likely to just be flowery language so I wouldn't put too much stock into it personally. Still, if the implications here happened to be legit, all of the above 2-C feats would be 2-B, so it's worth mentioning at least.

2-A(?)
Both potential "2-A" feats are questionable, but they are worth bringing up in any case.

Rah's above feat of threatening "all of creation" was done by channeling the souls of all of the victims of the ongoing war, (over 100 million to be exact), whereas the Nexus itself literally contains an infinite amount of souls. Anyone with the ability to manipulate the Nexus as a whole should have the ability to reproduce such a feat on an infinite scale.

On a similar note, Baal was able to absorb and assimilate the souls of an infinite number of demons when it was "born.

Again, I'm personally iffy on these. The logic checks out in my opinion, but I'm not sure about our standards for these kinds of feats, and it honestly might be worth its own thread to determine whether or not infinite amounts of 2-C or 2-B power qualifies for 2-A. In any case, until the standards themselves are made clear, I'd only consider 2-A for a "possibly" rating at best.

High 2-A/Low 1-C
This one should be relatively simple. The Nexus of Souls is the birthplace of all concepts, which as shown above, includes that of Time and Space, and transcending such concepts should make one 5-D. Shajad, Beryls, C'iel and Gaira all exist beyond the Soul Flux in its entirety, outside of its influence. They chose to bind themselves to specific concepts within the structure of reality because prior to doing so they existed only beyond it. Their power is also compared to nigh-omnipotence within reality.

All of the relevant information for this one can be found in the blog I linked to it, so go ahead and judge for yourself.

There is more stuff to go over in terms of scaling but it can likely wait until specific tiers are decided upon.

Again, most if not all of the relevant information for this is in already made blogs, so if you feel like something is missing, check those first. With that being said, go ahead and evaluate.

I agree with all of this, obviously. I'll wait to see what other people have to say before commenting futher on specifics, though i agree with opition 1 in the scaling issue.

Technically true about that of scaling, Attack Ability do not represent AP, it represent several things: enhanced combat, accuracy, speed (combat speed in this case, there's more types of speed), etc. However, that's due the term AP do not exist in context.

There's few description that may define Defense Ability as durability, such the movement Stand the Strike (most likely do not call that way, I only remember the name in spanish), where the character let itself being stroke in order to not get cornered into defensive, when few force-fields are created, they increase Defense Ability. However, the term durability neither isn't lie we associate to characters here, that in game, it would be more to Armor Type or Damage Barrier.

Since these two only represent durability, without those technically characters do not have durability in the context if this wiki. Why Red Lady was able to "kill" John? Welp, it was a surprise attack made from the back (plus, she already had the book whose name don't remember), in whose case it have sense in the context of the rules.

I could write more but I want to avoid wall of text (plus no longer in a pc), and have space for discussion.

I'll go through this bit by bit:

- The Gnosis blog could really use scans. A lot of the resistances don't matter much since many are covered in the blog (which already has scans). The resistance blog is fine though.

- I dunno about affecting a larger concept being Type 2 concept manip, though if it was accepted as this previously then I s'pose that's fine. Type 2 Concept Manip being that which overrules all of reality I'd think would take this down to Type 3, could be just me and I don't deal with high end ***** much.

- Regarding stat scaling: it seems that Anima lacks an equivalent to Challenge Rating, which is unfortunate. In this case, I would say drop stat scaling since it sounds like saying "this guy with 20 str should scale to this guy with 20 str" when those aren't what decide AP inherently. Basically I prefer Choice One as well.

- Low 2-C seems fine for the first scan, Prison of Light and Prison of Darkness don't seem to have enough basis for Low 2-C at least just based on those descriptions. D&D has pocket universes that are like 9-A in size.

- I don't see how Baal's thing is 2-C unless we give further context to this stuff. Rah's stuff seems fine and while it'd be fairly low in 2-C (sounds like two universes) it's still a good feat.

- I doubt 2-B a lot tbh. Unless those dreams are provably real universes, then I'd say it shouldn't count. It just refers to them as dreams (oneiric) so I'm super unsure about this one. Gonna say no.

- Press X to Doubt on the first 2-A feat, seems like you have to take a thread and run with it to make that a legitimate 2-A feat. Infinite souls can be contained in a Low 2-C space, they just happen to be a very good fuel source.

- Your blog doesn't mention the Nexus of Souls, though I assume you mean the Soul Flux? If that's the case, then if people transcend the soul flux as you imply in the blog, then I could see them being High 2-A. I don't think the place itself is a High 2-A realm purely for being the birthplace of concepts, but being a transcendental layer above it should be enough justification if such creatures exist.

Baal merging with existence would include all the other alternative realities too. I think it would include the Soul Flux too (and yes, Nexus of Souls=Soul Flux)

The concepts in Anima fit pretty well on type 2 imo. They will exist independly of a object (so even if you destroy all objects of that concept it won't dissapear), shape reality itself, transcend time, etc.

Doesn't it normally differentiate? Like as in, whether it includes both? That was the impression I got at least. If it doesn't and it refers to both realities as "existence" then yeah that'd be 2-C.

Sure but that doesn't mean manipulating a minute part of them is also Concept Manip Type 2. The Concept of Time is indeed a Type 2 Concept but that wouldn't inherently mean manipulating any small part of it is on par with manipulating the whole thing. Magic seems to alter the former rather than the latter.

CR its more like a suggerence for fighting, in anima its used levels in general, although, since the npc vary more in abilities one pay more attention to it rather than their level (like, Nexus Guardian its lv 10 but it have pretty slow combat stats compared to most npc of its level).

Other examples of combat abilities as scaling is that in the core book tells you how two characters with the same characteristics, (str, agi, dex) same weaponry and armor fights between each other, and one have an advantage of 20-30 then that one would eventually unless the other one have luck or this one fumble. Other example its the last technique from the Dominus, a nuke that its capable to destroy planets, it grants a +200 bonus to Attack Ability.

My thoughts on this are mostly the same as Bambu's.

So Magic is Type 3 because it just manipulates a portion of the concept of "Reality", instead of the whole thing? I just want to make sure I'm understanding, but I think I do. I feel like it's probably more appropriate to treat it as Type 2 on a minor scale, though? Rather than Type 3, which is something else entirely. Granted, I'm not the most apt when it comes to determining Types either most of the time, so if there's something I'm missing that would be why. In any case, there are certainly spells such as Uncreation, which do explicitly affect Type 2 concepts, but I can understand the angle where Magic itself as a system wouldn't inherently do this.

I'll cross off 2-A and 2-B from the list since I think everyone's on the same page about those.

And yeah, I'll add scans to the Gnosis blog now that I'm rested enough, but it'll take a while. Let's just focus on the rest of the thread for the time being.

Agree with what Bambu said

Honestly, I don't quite get this of type 1, 2 or 3 concepts, seems kinda unnecessary and just complicate stuff even. But to clear, magic just bend the energies of the Nexus, its not conceptual manipulation by itself (although as you could have already noticed, few magic spells manipulate concepts), its definition its not "that" different of the conventional magic: manipulate reality through the supernatural forces.

Not all magic have the capability to damage energy neither, just thoes that attack in ENErgy (although, if one wants to block magic, one need non-physical interaction, no matter the type of magic projectial).

If looking about gnosis screenshots, I got few in this blog, although few pictures are in spanish and maybe its not as complete as the one made by Ed.

As for scaling, in the Dominus Exxet explain the combat levels: here and here, the Attack Ability its indeed used to determinate who is stronger (although, not in the sense in what the wiki generally refer to). Durability here is not how the wiki use (although, dare to say most verses don't use it as the way wiki use it), one can survive City level attacks, but that doesn't mean that any arbitrary below that level will do anything to the character, so, way weaker character can still damage stronger ones, although, in its pretty situational (John for example just lost against the Bearer and Ergo, most likely with negative due pain tireness, and also received a surprise attack from the back from Lady, that is already a negative of over 170, so John had a Defense Ability of less than 150 against the 235 of Lady, a high chance of one shotting).

But If magic can manipulate souls and souls = concepts, wouldn't it logically make those spells conceptual Manipulation?

Maybe those that manipulate souls, conventional spells such creating fire or electricity do not manipulate souls nor concepts, they can't even damage energy unless spells attack in ENE or are stated to do so.

Magic just use the Nexus as source of power to bend reality, doesn't mean all spells bends reality in the same way.

No, Magic "manipulating the essence of reality" is genuinely something that's referenced multiple times, which is already covered in the blog. It's literally referred to as "the power to control souls" in one of the scans I posted there. What we're trying to figure out is whether this counts as conceptual manipulation and what Type.

Also, looking at the stuff you posted from Dominus Exxet, it looks like base Combat Ability might be useable as a guide for the baseline of what a character with those stats should be able to do, but that doesn't exactly mean that we should scale characters to and around each other using it. The actual feats performed are consistently above the level described there, even ignoring stuff from Gate of Memories.

About Lady harming Nameless, again, things like Attack Ability and Defense Ability are Game Mechanics, and it being "a surprise attack from behind" doesn't lower durability. The most this could be argued as is an Outlier for Lady or Plot-Induced Stupidity, but combined with her other showings keeping up with both Nameless and The Bearer, this is only just consistent. And it's not like this is the only case of contradiction between feats and in-game stats anyway.

I'm not discarding the feats made by those listened in the rules, in general, the stats represent what a character can do but they are but are "reduced" due to mechanics: for example that last technique from the Dominus where it states that it can blow a planet yet the description say that only cover a radius of 5 km, or when Dragon of Gaira have an AoE in game of 1 km despite Orgus covering a distance of over 15 km and nearly destroyed half Arkangel. They aren't exact, but they are pretty accurate.

Basically one just need to look for a feat and then see how much Attack Ability have, then anyone with the same or higher amount of Attack Ability would scale. Most admit, that that Defense Ability its kinda more complicated, I scale due few things, the maneuver where characters can simple left hit by the opponent and stand the attack with a negative of -80 to their defense, and when parry weapons with barehand where they can receive damage due blocking.

Evaluate damage resistence creatures its however other story, gamewise its nearly impossible to one-shot them unless someone attack them in a weak spot and/or use an aoe attacks, without it, even characters like the Coronel would take time to take down an elephant. That's why few of them have unknown ratings in durability, and other few scale to having LP comparable to certain structures (mechanically, they work kinda the same), plus their "durability" increase if they have AT or Damage Barrier.

The issue with Red Lady its more due the nature of the wiki, like, how many times in fiction have you see an strong character being took down by surprise attacks? Once again, "here" people do not have a threashold of damage (that would be Damage Barrier), they have a great range of the magnitude of stuff that can damage them (see Rah tanking Pride and Wrath's attack).

If we decide to not use their stats (and remember, this is not pokemon, their stats represent what they can do in canon, just in minor degree), that would imply to erase most of the profiles, as they are scaled by character sheets.

That's just game mechanics, why you know, we don't use on this wiki

For a moment i thought this thread was about Beyond two souls. You know, that David Cage game.

Because i am italian and Anima means soul

The character sheet its the interpretation of what the character can do, as you could see, any description of a power its followed how it works mechanically; otherwise, why the CR from dnd or pf any different? Except here I considered several stats rather than only one (and yet, I feel its not enough).

I can't force you to read the rules so you can understand the scaling, but there's a bunch of example through the books how one thing works, and how its interpreted at the levels of the rules. But as I said before, the wiki its too simplistic for tabletop games.

@Antonio


What I'm saying is the stats can be used as a baseline for those without feats or scaling by using the environmental damage indicated by fights at their level as a guideline. For instance, 150+ and 200+ seem to be different degrees of Wall Level, 300+ creates shockwaves that can shatter buildings, and 400+ "shakes creation" and sparks flying from their blows form "enormous craters". If we use this as a baseline rather than the feats a specific character, it doesn't cause any contradiction. Of course, I want to hear Bambu's opinion on using it this way. I'll add this to the list as option 3.

What you're describing for Red Lady's case is Plot-Induced Stupidity, which is something that we do take into account on the wiki. This just isn't one of the cases it applies to.

I'm starting to favor option 3, but even if we had no way to determine stats, there's always "Unknown" tier, and again, we can use The Real World as a reference. There isn't much of a reason to delete any profiles here. If they're worthy of a profile to begin with, there should be enough information about the character to make a reliable one.

Because CR is a consistent ruler, thought even that, past 20, starts to get messed up, so from that point it's ignored.

Attack Ability (or stats in general) are also consistent, as I said, the magnitudes are just reduced when translated to game mechanics. There's rarely inconsistencies, if you pay attention to their stats one could determinate how could be a canon fight.

Why not just use the lore?

The feats comes from the lore, like Cthton's earquakes or Zoul's chain breath, what I do not use for scale are the descriptions of the spells (otherwise you got stuff like tier 7 at lv 1, but through enviromental destruction).

Levels can't be used for power scaling. Like at all. Stats can't be used to scale between characters either, but are maybe usable to find a baseline.

Now that the tier revisions are done, High 2-A stuff is now Low 1-C, and the 2-A stuff is now a more definitive "No". Everything else stays the same.

I agree with Ed on the point of scaling.

Never scaled through level (well, used to, but that long ago and it was corrected), Dementia its lv 8 and yet its below average human, Nexus Guardian its lv 10 and yet considerable weaker than others around their level, or even below its level.

When someone its essentially strong they refer to their attack and defense abilities, you may think +200 AA its only wall level, but those characters are stronger than a Queen Hydra (note, doesn't mean they always win) and can potentially defeat an army of +1000 regular soldiers (you can simulate it if you wish).

One can perfectly be lv 10 and being as strong as the average human, with no supernatural power at all, see Eljared, she its arguely the strongest wizard in Gaia, and get its just comparable to Elisabetha. As for gnosis, one can perfectly be lv 1 and have gnosis 35 (as Carlos has said), so gnosis powers are independent of level and attack/defense ability.

Ok

I don't think 200+ is only Wall level, but I think Wall level is a far better baseline than "unknown", and far safer than scaling characters with no reason to scale to each other. The point is as long as they have their own feats they're likely to end up higher, but for the record, a Wall level character can defeat armies of regular soldiers just with enough skill and stamina.

When is Elisabetta compared to Eljared?

I believe it should be around the CoBs, or it was a loose comment from Carlos.

People before the +200 people scales from Ice Maide (although I must admit, never feel comfortable scaling from freezing or weather stuff), or otherwise from Hydra Quee (those two creatures are example of beings of "elevated" level but yet with lower attack abilities, they compensate by ki techniques and multiple attacks).

For reference, no real life animal (that still exist) surpass 100 in attack/defense abilities. The only issue its durability, that can be represented as LP (also as endurance), AT or Damage Barrier (also conventional invulnerability).

The other way that I though for scale was for Damage, as it also help you to bypass the Damage Barrier of creatures and buildings; however, Damage evaluate lethality, the difference between receive a punch and receive an slash from the same guy (the typical "headache" that people here get when they discuss the AP of bladed weapons).

Kinda neutral to what its tier 2 or above, but take into account that what Tawil does its via gnosis, so independent of level, damage or attack ability; theorically speaking, another creature could perform the same even if its lv 0 with no combative abilitites and with Damage 5 (like the strike of a baby), and get nigh impossible to defeat by someone of inferior gnosis.

Ice Maiden and Hydra Queen are just characters who have their own feats. We can scale people to them properly by using lore and statements. There's no actual reason to use in-game stats for scaling, and plenty of reason not to.

Attack and Defense Ability represent speed and skill just as much as strength and durability. Real world animals being generally slow and dumb compared to humans could be what puts them below 100, or otherwise this is just another example of why these values can't be trusted when they even contradict themselves. Again, things like hp are game mechanics, and being exhausted doesn't lower your durability. Damage and level are also game mechanics.

Seriously, we have actual useable feats and the majority of characters with a profile scale to at least one of them. We definitely aren't struggling to the point that we need to use in-game stats, especially when they go against what the characters actually show in canon.

But they already scale to in canon feats, such Zhoul, Chthon and Rudrashka, and their stats do not contradict what they can do, the effects in game are just reduced, and represent what its their potential, see Yuri and Willhem, there stats are pretty similar and represent how close they are to each other (they have fought a couple of times). Or Ergo and the Nameless, their stats are pretty close and thus they are comparable, despite the first one winning Ergo noticed how close the match was.

Although true, attack ability do not represent AP, but two characters that share similar levels of attack ability are close in terms of overall strength; then others factors affect the fight: if one have heavy armor then most likely is not get hurt, or if it have Damage Barrier then it do not even need to defend, as (assuming the weapon damage its inferior) any attack wouldn't cause harm, ki techniques, Auspice, etc, also affect, but you get the point.

Okay, here's my take speaking as generally as possible since the only context I have are the other tabletops I've played. Prepare for a long wall of text since I am effectively responding to a looooot of posts. Forgive me if some stuff is overly based on experience with D&D/massively out of order. I'll try to quote where I can as I'd like to be as efficient as possible.

Further regarding my take on concept manip for certain versions of magic- Type 3 is perfectly valid for these. Even if the concepts dictate reality, they aren't inherently Type 2, as Type 2 requires changing the concept causes a change to all things within reality to be changed as a result. If it were, say, the Type 2 Concept of the soul, then whatever happened to that concept would be reflected across all souls. This doesn't seem to be the case here, ergo the concept type is Type 3.

From what I understand of your third proposal, it's just to fill in any blanks using the default feats given. I'm fine with that, that's reasonable enough. Using stats for those without feats is fine, we do the same thing in D&D (see: CR 23 Demon Lords with Low 2-C AP despite CR 23 being like 6-C). If the game gives them stand-in feats then those should work fine.

If this is such a glaring issue can't a compromise be made with "Unknown, at least Wall level, possibly far higher"? It seems like this is a case where both camps can be satisfied without attempting to try a golden mean fallacy.

Speaking more freely, I think the way Anima is set up (based on this CRT) is that it has an attack power stat where default feats come from, pretty standard damage rolls, and levels. These three stats are the current ideas on what to scale to. Levels don't work because Anima has alternative means of combatting one another so level doesn't really accurately reflect AP. Damage can be a slippery slope since that leads to stuff like a normal explosion being many tiers above all other spells and yet not one-shot someone with much lower dura since these games are more about balancing HP and damage. So... I can't say I'm super happy about damage. If the game gives them basic feats for their attack power stat then I'm fine with using that as an alternative measuring stick if the character has no other feats to reliably scale to.

I agree with Bambu's points here.

That makes sense. I also agree with Bambu.

Yes, as I said, magic just manipulate the souls of the nexus to obtain desired effects, not the souls of people in general, otherwise all undeads would be immune to magic as they are soulless.

Sure, you can use baseline dezcriptions of the DE to give them an AP, but notice that it do not represent what they can entire, its like giving DB characters tier 8-7 just for not blowing the planet by fighting (at the end, +400 aa was specifically made to emulate those fights).

At all this, what would be the new scaling according to you?

I'm making a post for scaling stuff but it's taking longer than anticipated. (Just a heads up, since I don't want you thinking I'm ignoring you).

Yeah i agree. Though i'd like to say certain high level spells do affect concepts like that. For instance, Uncreation erases the concept of a civilization/race and makes it so they have never existed in the first place. I think it's fair to say high/top tiers would have type 2 while the weaker characters would have type 3

I think Bambu was talking about magic specifically, not the concepts themselves.

Dad's haunted by Llamas so you can never know

So, what's the other issues aside for the tier 2 and the scaling? I believe the resistance part has no issue, although I would like to clarify that despite the resistances being pretty broad, doesn't mean one can resist, lets say, a snake's bite, one need to check its level of resistances.