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Pokemon Related: Some Anime / Games materials scaling to 4-B

The_2nd_Existential_Seed

The_2nd_Existential_Seed

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The Anime & Games can be discussed to have Legendary Scaling in this thread. However, this thread will focus solely on the Anime/Game of Sun/Moon. Please give detail reasoning or your reasoning won't be counted, no matter your knowledge on the subject:

  • Agree with Anime Scaling to 4-B: CyrotheMayo
  • Agree with Game Scaling to 4-B:
  • Disagree with Just Anime Scaling to 4-B:
  • Disagree with Just Game Scaling to 4-B:
  • Disagree with Just Both Scaling to 4-B: GyroNutz
Anime - Sun and Moon: (From CyrotheMayo):

Logic

  • SM Pikachu has fought Tapu Koko, Zeraora, Guzzlord and Sivally (albeit badly damaged) at comparable levels and one-shot Mother Beast Lusamine with 10,000,000 Volts
  • Lycanroc Dusk damaged Kukui's Incineroar, who matched Ash's Melmetal
  • Torracat damaged and overwhelmed Kukui's Incineroar who matched Melmetal
  • Rowlet took on Kukui's Braviary (which defeated Lycanroc) and Venusaur. A magazine scan (would have to track down) claims that all of Kukui's pokemon are likely as well-trained as his Incineroar
  • Melmetal is 4-B and badly damaged Gladion's Sivally
  • Naganadel fought and defeated Kukui's Lucario, who briefly went against Guzzlord and is also fighting Tapu Koko toe-to-toe in the next episode
  • Pikachu's Gigavolt Havoc and Naganadel's Gigavolt Havoc combined was capable of completely overwhelming a Guzzlord in a beam struggle and blowing it away into an Ultra Wormhole


Thus, Ash is logically 4-B in late SM due to all of the scaling and feats presented against 4-Bs. This would also scale Anime Gladion (with his 4-B Sivally, Zoroark taking on Pikachu and Lycanroc Midnight taking on Lycanroc Dusk) as well as Kukui's entire team (due to Incineroar scaling to Melmetal, a scan claiming all of his team are as well-trained as Incineroar, his team scaling to Ash's team and him using Tapu Koko as his sixth member).

Games - Sun and Moon: There are multitude on multitude of statements and feats putting the highest level champions as relative to the Ultra Beasts so I'd like to go into full detail:

  • Sun / Moon defeated UBs throughout the later trials
  • Defeated Gladion ... twice .. who wielded Sivally
  • Considered to be a challenge by the Tapu Koko and at the end of the story who fought off the main UBs
  • Fought off Lunala, Sogaleo, and Necrozma. None of these were battles you could catch them.
  • Had to take on Super Necrozma. Again, not a battle in which you could catch them.
  • Fought Kukui / Hau , the Champions are ltierally stated to be the only ones capable of fighting the stronger UBs and was stated to be the strongest trainer as of that point and beyond. A far weaker Hau could fight off the UBs Post-Story, and he's far weaker than the Protagonist.
  • Everything in the Rainbow Rocket... Even fricking Lillie who based solely on her portrayal seems even stronger than Kukui.
  • Defeated many Mystical Legendaries during and Post-Story
  • Red was considered the strongest trainer period in the Battle Tree , and thusly should be immensely above Rematch Kukui [as the weakest members of the Tree are > Rematch Kukui] and those who wield UB - Level Pokemon
 
Bump. Thank you for the contribution. Yes, for the most part legendary scaling of each game would occur (if accepted) at only in the top tiers of the game (except games like Pokemon Revolution who scale to Palkia at the early gyms but that's another bag of worms)
 
Anime scaling should only apply to top tiers as well, from what I can tell. Ash, Guzma, Gladion, Kiawe and Kukui would be the only ones that can or could scale to it.

  • Ash: Elaborated in the OP's quote of my logic
  • Kukui: Mostly explained in OP
  • Guzma: His Golisopod tanked Pikachu's Gigavolt Havoc at a type disadvantage and continued fighting Pikachu afterwards, making its durability insane and scaling its capabilities to being comparable to Pikachu.
  • Gladion: Has Sivally. Lycanroc damaging Kukui's Incineroar, who matched and overpowered Melmetal, would logically scale Gladion's Lycanroc to Ash's Lycanroc, who scales to significantly damaging Kukui's Incineroar.
  • Kiawe: This is less reasonable but Kiawe's Marowak and Turtonator defeated Gladion's Lycanroc (who should scale to 4-B for matching Ash's Lycanroc) but was mostly stomped by Gladion's Sivally.
Some argument may also be made for the Kahunas scaling to 4-B potentially, but their best feat in the anime was blasting away a Guzzlord (trapped by the Island Guardians) with a four-way Z-Move barrage.

It's arguable that others like Ash-Greninja, Mega Charizard, Steven and Diantha would scale to this. I'm not sure how strong 50% Zygarde would be treated (with Perfect Zygarde being 4-B) but Alain's Charizard X tussled with 50% Zygarde and both Steven and Diantha are stronger than Alain with Ash-Greninja being comparable to Alain's Charizard X.

Overall, only XY and SM top-tiers would scale to this, to my knowledge.
 
I don't really agree with merging feats from different universes (different Tapu Kokos, different Necrozmas, different Zygardes, etc) but with the rationale that they are all equal? I don't see much issue with your argument for Games scaling.

I would have to also consider if the BW2 Protagonist and GS Protagonist should scale to 4-B as well but the GS Protagonist only fought a 14 year-old Red and BW2 fought a, what? 18 year-old Red? It's plausible that SM Red has just grown much stronger since his teens.
 
Yeah no. You guys are taking this way too far now. Top tier Sun and Moon Ash and co. scaling to 4-B is already very questionable to get accepted, and now you want to scale XYZ and BW characters to this? Thats pushing it quite alot.

I ca accept Sun and Moon Ash, Kukui, Gladion, Guzma and, if being seriously generous, Kiawe becoming 4-B. But thats it. I vehemently disagree with any traner outside of Gen 7 even touching this scaling.
 
This ^.

People should only scale to this if they directly fight someone who's already 4-B imo. Otherwise the scaling will become a mess.

To clarify, 50% Zygarde shouldn't be 4-B anytime soon
 
50% Zygarde should be 4-B, but whether or not he becomes that has nothing to do with these trainer scalings.

Alain doesn't scale to Zygarde whatsoever, whether 50% is 4-B or remains 5-B. So Zygarde's tiering is utterly irrelevant to this.
 
XY scaling is an entirely different debate either way, let's just focus on SM top-tiers scaling to 4-B based on Tapu Koko, Zeraora, Guzzlord, Sivally and Melmetal scaling.

The XY scaling would only apply to Steven, Diantha, Charizard X and Ash-Greninja based on Alain's Charizard fighting 50% Zygarde anyways. If anyone wants to bring it up, we can discuss it in another thread after it's decided whether or not SM Games and Anime will scale to 4-B as well.

If SM Anime top-tiers pass for an upgrade, discussion pertaining to an XY upgrade can reasonably be discussed in a second thread. If they don't pass, then XY has zero chance of upgrading.
 
No, there isnt going to be any upgrade for XY because we don't even currently accept Alain scaling to 6-B, let alone 5-B Zygarde.

Its an outlier on big proportions. Especially given the fact that Alain got curbed by the Weather Trio, who are much much lower on the 5-B scale than 50% Zygarde currently is.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
No, there isnt going to be any upgrade for XY because we don't even currently accept Alain scaling to 6-B, let alone 5-B Zygarde.
Its an outlier on big proportions. Especially given the fact that Alain got curbed by the Weather Trio, who are much much lower on the 5-B scale than 50% Zygarde currently is.
Click to expand...
I didn't claim there would be an XY upgrade, just stating that an XY upgrade wouldn't have the slightest chance of passing if the SM upgrade doesn't pass and that if the SM upgrade passes a separate thread would have to be made for Zygarde scaling.

The Weather Trio is certainly an anti-feat when compared to Zygarde's manga feats and scaling, albeit I don't recall Primal Groudon and Kyogre being in the manga but it's extremely doubtful they would scale above planetary when Mega Rayquaza doesn't.

As for games, isn't there a universe split between games with Mega Evolutions and without Mega Evolutions? In that case, BW2 trainers can't scale to SM Red based on his much younger Non-Mega counterpart in BW2. To add further, Let's Go Red uses a Mega Venusaur, which may indicate that the Red in GSC and HGSS isn't from the Megaverse, due to Let's Go taking place prior to Gen 2.

In other words SM Red scaling to 4-B has zero effect on the scaling for Gen 5 and lower due to those generations using a different Red from the Non-Mega universe. Only Gen 6 and 7 would have any scaling to Red.
 
>The Weather Trio is certainly an anti-feat when compared to Zygarde's manga feats and scaling, albeit I don't recall Primal Groudon and Kyogre being in the manga but it's extremely doubtful they would scale above planetary when Mega Rayquaza doesn't.

I didn't say they scaled above planet level. I said that they scale to a much lower end of planet level than Zygarde does. And they curbed Alain easily. Him losing to them, yet suddenly doing a thing to Zygarde would absolutely be an outlier for him. If even scaling him to them in the first place.
 
That's what I am stating, Primal Groudon and Kyogre shouldn't scale above Planet-level due to Mega Rayquaza being Planet-level. While I don't recall the Primals being in the manga, Manga Mega Rayquaza has no feats to indicate it's above planetary. Since the Primals can't be above Mega Rayquaza, that means Charizard losing to Primals is a huge anti-feat compared to it clashing with Zygarde.

In other words, I am agreeing with you.
 
I would say that Ash, Gladion, and Kukui would scale since Tapu Koko successfully fought off an Incomplete Necrozma in Episode 88 of Sun & Moon. Kiawe and Guzma getting that scaling might be pushing it. Ash and Pikachu overpowered Tapu Koko's Z-Move, Guardian of Alola, which is powered by the energy of the Alola Region. Even if the SM top tiers don't get to 4-A, Ash's profile is long overdue for an update. For one, he's a champion.
 
The last SM episode may add more evidence/credit to Ash's scaling. Will have to wait on episode subs to know what exactly Ash did but he and Pikachu went into Ultra Space off-screen for at least an entire night and collected a ton of Ultra Space data.
 
Who is affected by the Games Scaling ? :

Sun/Ultra Sun:

Likely the Elite Four / Kahunas , Champion Titles Rematchers, Battle Tree, and Rainbow Rocket.


Protagonist of Omega Ruby:Scales to Groudon due to being stated to wield the power of the Omega Orb which allowed us to fight evenly with Primal Groudon according directly to the game, then we get the Alpha Orb ontop of that which would give one a massive amp above that of fighting Groudon.

Scalable likely to the Last Gym Leader , Victory Road Wally, Elite Four, Champion, Rematch Variant. Battle Chantelaines / Battle Maison participants, and likely End of Game Wally. It likely scales to Anabel & Zinnia as they are Post-Champion level trainers.
 
The same, but the opposite. You get the Alpha Orb to take on Primal Kyogre with, then get the Omega Orb to add a drastic multiplier ontop of it. It's the same scaling method in both versions. I just highlighted Omega Ruby as it's my favorite version.
 
Oh BTW since the new anime isn't a retcon as we see the Champion trophy he got from Alola.... Doesn't that mean the Galar Region would scale to 4-Bs ? Woo boi

But to be fair Battle Revolution has a Region worth of Trainers scaling to the Creation Trio....
 
It's very clear that Alola is acknowledged, yes and Pikachu definitely isn't reset. It overpowered a combined Hyper Beam by Gyarados and Tyranitar in a single Thunderbolt (albeit with some effort) and one Thunderbolt could stun and hurt Lugia briefly. Pikachu may have also tanked an Aeroblast but the scene isn't really clear due to panning out to the city.

The only thing contradicting the scaling is Pikachu not one-shotting Lugia or something, due to Lugia being at least 6-B. But this is more of a flaw with the Legendary scaling used on the wiki IMO.
 
In my opinion Pikachu should get an upgrade to 4-B or he should not but we also nerf every single mystery dungeon pokemon who fought legendaries and movie lucario back to their repective tier.

Ash should 100% be 4-B as he used Nangandel and Melmetal who are 4-B.

Gladion should also probably get 4-B due to silvally scaling to him.

Kukui with tapu koko also is 4-B.

also i want a place to talk about upgrading zygarde 50% to 4-B
 
Mystery Dungeon Pokemon + Lucario(s) have no antifeats, which is why they're different.

To clarify, I think the logic for SM top tiers being 4-B is sound (would like to see that Kukui scan mind). We should be conservative with the scaling though, otherwise it'll become a mess with almost everyone in future anime seasons becoming 4-B, etc.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
It's very clear that Alola is acknowledged, yes and Pikachu definitely isn't reset. It overpowered a combined Hyper Beam by Gyarados and Tyranitar in a single Thunderbolt (albeit with some effort) and one Thunderbolt could stun and hurt Lugia briefly. Pikachu may have also tanked an Aeroblast but the scene isn't really clear due to panning out to the city. The only thing contradicting the scaling is Pikachu not one-shotting Lugia or something, due to Lugia being at least 6-B. But this is more of a flaw with the Legendary scaling used on the wiki IMO.
Click to expand...
Pikachu is only 4-B with Z-Moves. Without it, he wouldn't have been capable of defeating Tapu Koko's Guardian of Alola, nor would he have been able to take out Nihilego+Lusamine in Ultra Space. Ash isn't using Z-Moves this season, so Pikachu being capable of hurting yet not one-shotting Lugia doesn't contradict anything. Pikachu = 4-B with Z-Moves Ash = 4-B at his strongest Kukui = 4-B with Tapu Koko
 
Dankside said:
Pikachu is only 4-B with Z-Moves. Without it, he wouldn't have been capable of defeating Tapu Koko's Guardian of Alola, nor would he have been able to take out Nihilego+Lusamine in Ultra Space. Ash isn't using Z-Moves this season, so Pikachu being capable of hurting yet not one-shotting Lugia doesn't contradict anything. Pikachu = 4-B with Z-Moves Ash = 4-B at his strongest Kukui = 4-B with Tapu Koko
Click to expand...
Pikachu fought Sivally, Tapu Koko, Zeraora and Guzzlord and held up against them even without Z-Moves, as well as tanking blows by them. You can't exactly claim Base Pikachu doesn't scale to 4-B when it has 4-B durability and can stun/hurt said 4-Bs.

Regardless, Pikachu has the AP to one-shot 4-Bs when using 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt.
 
Bump.

The Games quite literally stated Champions are the trainers capable of fighting Ultra Beasts. Type Null & Sivally was a consistent rival for the Player in both games, required to beat Ultra Beasts throughout the whole game, and Nanu of the Kahunas was able to fight the Ultra Beasts temporarily alongside Tapu Fini. The Protagonist had to beat Necrozma a total of 3-4 times [Necrozma empowered Lunala and Sogaleo, Necrozma himself, and Ultra Necrozma] after beating all the Trials, before holding his own against Kukui and then later on stated as capable of fighting the Ultra Beasts.

We have explicit statements of him scaling to Legendaries such as during Rainbow Rocket. He can not only best these Legendaries in rapid succession, but also best the Legendaries within the Battle Tree, which can range all across the Battle Tree.

I do think USUM's Red & Blue likely would scale above all of Rainbow Rocket, considering the Battle Tree's portrayal as the greatest challenge in both Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon.
 
new opinion.

Ash 4-B for having Solgaleo which he used a z-move with and melmetal

perhaps pikachu 4-B with z-moves as he used them to beat ultra beasts

Gladion 4-B due to sillvally

Kukui 4-B for tapu-koko

I do not think scaling it further would make any sense.

game-wise, i would agree with simply making game gladion 4-B for obvious 4-B pokemon.

Also, now that a lot of 5-B pokemon got buffed to at least 5-B, likely 4-B we should give manga Red that tier.

game red and blue should not scale unless you assume that red has mewtwo which would give him the tier that his manga counterpart has.
 
I think we should consider the "hidden potential" element too. Anyone that has actually finished Pokemon Masters main story and sync pair stories knows that both Trainer and their Pokemon can draw out their hidden power. The strength of a bond between Trainer and Pokemon can be measures via their Aura. This matter also got touched on in the SM animated series. In one episode, while Ash's Rockruff and Rowlet couldn't keep up with the speed of the hamster wheel, Ash and Pikachu was able to push themselves passed their limits and increased their speed at the same rate. This element explains the inconsistency in the anime as Ash and his low tier Pokemon have defeated many full evolved pokemon before while also got rekted by weaker ones. Because of this element, normal pokemon can challenge even legendaries. According to Siebold, a Pokemon might have infinite potential. Once a Pokemon's potential had been drawn out completely, it can become like Ash-Greninja. Pokemon can also draw out some of their hidden power on their own as wild low tier Pokemon can fight against full evolved Pokemon also. But there is an execption in the case of Pikachu 'cuz he supposed to be stronger than Raichu without that power.
 
Interesting, I can't verify your claims due to not playing or keeping tabs on Masters but that would explain why Ash's pokemon can contend with legendaries. I don't think you can claim Pikachu is stronger without that power though, considering Pikachu displays zero special potential or strength until it protects Ash, who was willing to give up his life to try and save it.

We see in Mystery of Mew that Ash's aura is immensely powerful, far greater than dozens or even hundreds of people in a single room and it seems it rivals an Aura Guardian, Aaron, with zero training. In the new anime, Ash's understanding of Pokemon has been mentioned and considered strange by Go (like Ash recognising the emotions of a herd of Ivysaur when Go is unable to) or how Ash somehow understood Lugia's speech when Go clearly couldn't. This might be more indication that Ash has a much stronger connection than others.

This also has indication in other things, like Ash's Greninja or how Pikachu struggled to overpower Gyarados and Tyranitar's Hyper Beam until Ash commanded it to go further.

I think what may be possible is that there are some pokemon that are naturally receptive to trainers (like Pikachu and Greninja) who can gain more power with powerful auras in trainers (like Ash). Pikachu's power would likely be much lower without Ash.
 
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