HxH specifically

Manga scans prove that Aura is a vehicle for emotions and projecting your malice through your aura is how this shit works. You defend against it by using your Nen SHROUD, which anyone who uses the same technique should be able to do— ACCORDING TO THE VERSE ITSELF.

See here

It's a caveat of this ability that even staff, nevermind the greater wiki, doesn't recognize. As we went over, any verse with similar mechanics can abuse these caveats when they make sense. Verses that use Battle Auras consistently seem to be an example of this.

To be clear; Aura doesn't grant you resistance to fear and these effects in the conventional sense. If I had an X men mutation that gave me fear and paralysis manipulation, which is not spiritual energy/aura based in any way, they wouldn't have resistance to the effects, because the way the defense against them works is through a shroud of energy designed to protect from Life Energy/Aura/Chi energies pushing their bloodlust into an unprotected target. If I assaulted their minds with these effects telepathically, their aura wouldn't give them any special resistances, because it is not a thing that blesses their minds with strength independent of their power defending them, it's them literally shielding their bodies from the Aura itself.

So, why verse with mind hax that does that shit can hax HxH chars, and any Verse that uses Spiritual/Mystical/Chi bullshit to do similar affects can't do it while HxH characters are shrouded unless clarified, and vice versa. For example; Sung Jin Woo's bloodlust ability, for example, might not work, given its likely a Mystic/Spirit Energy aura based thing that can be guarded from by Ten. And Solo Leveling characters have been known to shroud themselves in Auras, so they MAY be able to defend against these abilities due to their caveat and weakness of them not being able to pierce through shrouds.

Nen's Defenses against its own hax aren't even Nen specific. Typically, unless you're absurdly powerful, people can shield themselves from these effects by using their aura to shroud and protect themselves. Literally how Gon and Killua were able to get passed Hisoka. Dragon Ball's Ki— and verse that has similar energy and mechanics— such as shrouding themselves in their aura energy whilst fighting should be unaffected by that trait. Because that's the weakness of "Nen Crush." When Zushi used it on Killua, and when Wing did it, he was affected by it because of Killua not having aura shrouding him. This is the stated purpose of Ten.

What should be changed? Either add a note to the resistances that states they are contextual, or remove them and then add a note that says they defend against them in certain contexts. And clarify to everyone who believes in Nen Crush that they might be using it wrong, because it's not an exclusive "ability and resistance only" type thing. You don't need a resistance to avoid this power, because it's got the weakness of "shroud of Chi energy around you protects you from it", unless you're super fodder or something. Because even when Pitou and them are brought up, the official statement on this from the dude who taught Nen to the protsgs is that you defend from it through Ten.

So yeah.

Agreed just giving out the ability and resistance to every nen user seemed odd, and nen crushing other verses who have ki/chi etc is even harder to get behind

Yup. You can learn this by reading the wiki on Nen for five minutes and checking their sources once. With a little critical thinking and text analysis, you can find that the inferences and observations made by the Wiki fit generally well, with the only thing to even slightly give pause to someone being their phrasing and framing being an explanation that is in depth but not a direct quote— which is, while a logically sound and correct conclusion, still an analysis and outside conclusion about thebstory rather than a direct quote. However, they're not farvoff from the actual direct quotes either. But once this thread gets traction, they'll be like; "No, you need Resistances". As if these characters themselves even have conventional resistances to these abilities. They go into Zetsu or don't use Nen, they become just as succeptsble to Nen Crush as Non-Nen users. Nothing about Nen specifically makes this Nen Crush and Nen Defense do what it does. It's not some poisonous mind substance that strengthens your mind to fear Manip. No. It's like covering yourself with Sunscreen, protecting yourself from contact with a harmful radiation.

I agree with this. It's not even granting innate resistance, it's just blocking the effect by creating an energy barrier that blocks the attacker's aura and anybody that can create an energy barrier would be safe from the effect.

Agreed, it isn't a resistance but a barrier to block the effects of those abilities. I would suggest adding a note listed the abilities it blocks out obviously to a certain extent.

And giving other verses resistance to the abilities is fallicious just because their energies are similar. This has been debated cancerously between Naruto and Bleach. It will just end up the same way. It can only be the case if similar abilities are used in the verse. If the aura or whatever is shown to block out those abilities too.

Their energies have to be the same genre (Chi/Mana), and it has to be used in an Aura shroud. Because that's literally the way you block the attacks. There's no logical reason why anyone with a similar power system shouldn't be capable of defending against this if the defense is that simple. Nothing about Nen Aura makes this a unique poisonous energy that can only be countered by HxH energy specifically and solely. Wing never said anything like that, and you can gather the opposite— that the basic nature of the defense against this can be seen as a weakness (or negative proof of being a volitile substance naturally— he even says you can choose to put your Malice into it, using your Aura as a conduit for your emotions, bloodlust specifically here) of Nen and therefore that the effects of Nen Crush are more based on the user than the energy itself.

If you don't like the idea of similar verses with similar rules fighting against the abilities of other verses, make a thread that goes against the entire concept of verse Equalization. And by the way, this is a WEAKNESS, or CAVEAT of the Nen Crush bullshit everyone is obsessing over. It's not granting a Resistance to anything, even to other HxH characters. It's literally a shroud of spiritual anime life energy, and through Verse Equalization, any verse that imploys this should be able to defend, not RESIST, because not even HxH characters resist this shit, but defend against this ability.

Let it also be known, you can still feel the bloodlust and malice of your enemy through your shroud, it's just protecting you from it. It seems reasonable to say that if your opponent is so massively stronger than you, or is certainly able to hurt you as much as they project, that they can affect you regardless of the shroud. Obviously this is only for HxH, but it should be known that some Chi user that's 9-B is not gonna have a good time against Meruem unless he has genuine resistance to these things.

I agree

There is a logical reason because nen acts as a barrier that can block those abilities. That isn't the same as most verses even DB. The concept of ki barriers around the body was introduced in DBS to keep out poison of a Tournanent of Power participant. So just having an aura doesn't mean it's a barrier.

Nen acts as a SHROUD/Barrier when used as Ten. Not a special defense against all kinds of Fear and Mind Hax, not even against Aura itself really. And it's the only thing that would defend against it in the Verse, because... It's the only power system in the verse based around any energy. Actually, the only power system at all, really. Your claim is basically implying that this defense is a special trait of Nen, when the implications are based in the idea that your bare body is being exposed to the Aura. Nothing ever explicitly states that Nen is a substance that negates these effects as an actual substance. There's never been an explanation that clarifies that Nen has this special quality to it that can only be defended against by Nen Aura due to the composition of the substance itself. What you're arguing is that Nen is inherently toxic in this way and also an inherent antidote, when all Wing says is that you need a barrier to defend against it. Nen doesn't even grant resistance to these effects in general. Just against other Nen users doing this to them as a shield, rather than a substance that nullifies it. This is evidenced by it still working on people who have Ten up because of the huge gap in strength between them (Knov and Pitou, Meruem and Pouf, Gon and Morel), as well as even in the scans In the OP, Gon and Killua can still sense the malice from Wing's energy, as well as from Hisoka's. It doesn't seem to nullify the effects at all, and it certainly would not protect from direct non-energy based psychic attacks and things, because it doesn't even erase the emotions transmitting altogether.

In Dragon Ball, they use what amounts to Ren constantly; that super saiyan glow and them powering up is literally Ren in HxH. Nothing about Nen is said to hold a special quality in its substance specifically that is only counterable by Nen specifically as a substance. Occams Razor says anything that acts as a life energy shroud is enough to defend against it via Verse Equalization, as nothing says that the specific HxH aura substance itself is the reason for the defense. If Wing said "Nen, as a substance, can nullify these effects", it'd Be easier to come to that conclusion.

In Inuyasha, Yoki is poisonous to humans. They say this explicitly. This is what you need to have to prove that Nen has a special substance quality that is responsible for the defense, rather than you assuming this is the case because you see that as a plausible explanation.

Wing doesn't say "Nen, as a substance, has qualities to it that defend against these types of affects." He says that if you're unguarded by Aura, this will kill you. The simplest assumption you can make is that if you're protected by a Life/Spiritual Energy barrier like with Nen, you're ok. Because the assumption that Nen specifically has a quality that makes it the only defense is unfounded and has no basis other than a convenient lack of other examples to make the claim false (Nen is the only power system, so it interacting with other power systems is unverifiable), and that you can choose to vaguely interpret that as such because they only talk about Nen as the defense. When, they naturally would, because that's all that exists.

You need positive, definitive evidence that Nen has qualities as a substance that defends against other Nen effects, and that these Nen effects are only defendable with Nen specifically because of this, and only power systems that literally have the exact same qualities or even Nen itself exclusively can defend against it. Good luck, considering Wing demonstrates Nen isn't inherently volitile unless you project your malice through it.

If Magic or Dragon Ball Ki or Reiryoku existed in HxH and it was revealed that a Ten shroud of these different energies couldn't defend against it, and only Nen's Aura substance could, then you'd have the evidence for your claim.

But you don't.

It's one thing for Reiatsu exclusive things to be only doable with a Reiatsu, but this is so broad that any energy system in the same genre with shrouds can defend against it KIND OF. Because even it can't defend against itself if you're fodder to someone.

That's exactly what I called it. A barrier. I never once claimed it can defend all kinds of fear/mind hax. Obviously just what's been displayed in the verse they can block. I've already agreed it isn't resistence. My claim is to clarify the ability of nen to create a barrier to defend against other displays of nen which can cause those specific effects are VERSE SPECIFIC. Only nen creates a barrier like that in shounen. No verse's aura has every been shown to block in the same way nen does. If so show me multiple examples. They need an actual barrier to block the intagible nen not just a display of aura.

Stop strawmanning me so much, creating multiple points from nothing to combat when I didn't say most of the irrelevant stuff in your post. Essentially you're debating yourself for most of that post trying to hedge your argument so much that I wouldn't be bothered to deal with it.

No, DBs ki hasn't been shown to block attacks at all in the same way nen does even if we had verse equalisation it wouldn't grant DB characters the ability to do so at all. So you need evidence that ki has this characteristic that nen does. A huge problem with this is the presupposition that ki has the DEFENSE affinity of nen. Prove it. The only time in DB they actually created a proper barrier was to combat poision in DBS. If just their aura had the defense why would they waste time developing a barrier to keep out the poision.

The whole "substance" bullshit is irrelevant because I never claimed that once.

I might have been wrong in what I interpreted from your response, so my bad. However, maybe you didn't recognize the idea you seem to be giving to me. I had read it as substance bullshit because that's the only way I could substantiate your interpretation. Nothing said that this is a special characteristic of Nen, and in fact, there's more reason to believe this is the least special part of Nen— the defense against bloodlust— that is accomplished in a way that's easily attainable by any verse. There's no explicit statements that explain that Aura has a special trait or that the technique has a special mechanism or method to it. It's just anime spirit energy sunscreen from bad vibes.

The basic idea I have is; Ten is just a shroud of energy. It's basic. The goal is to defend from emotional attacks— not "intangible Nen" (which sounds like you're adding more to the concept to me— that you think that Nen could go through other battle auras physically when that's not substantiated). It provides limited defense against attacks, but nothing really if it's from a Gyo attack. Aura buffs you physically SO much that you can die if you're hit once by a Gyo or Ko attack without any Aura. Nothing about the explanation of Ten implies that its designed for any other purpose other than keeping the Aura from leaving the body so you don't die of exhaustion. The defensive increases are both minor, marginal, and likely an unintended consequence of having the Aura just simply cover you. I say "unintended", because when Aura is intentionally used for defense, advanced techniques like Gyo or Ko— no, just an application of the basic Ren is how you actively defend yourself physically. It's less a barrier and more a sheet that's so basic and beginner tier that arguing any other verse needs to show more proof than simply having one also is absurd to me.

Again, Ten is literally no different in terms of defense than any other whispy light around an anime dude. There's more Lore and deeper applications of it than covered, but at the end of the day, nothing besides the mechanic and interaction itself sets Ten apart from any other Shonen Battle Aura. Not only is it's simplicity apparent in how it's fleshed out overall, and implied in its use and very nature, but it's actually the simplest interpretation as well. If I abridged what Wing said into a meme, it'd be as simple as saying— "Hey, you two. Don't walk towards him without having Ten. Your bare skinned asses will die like albinos without sunscreen if you take another step."

There's nothing to say that Ten shrouds do anything other than cover the body with energy and that's it. Not actively. Not as a "barrier" that requires effort— the word implies that it's an actual defense against anything other than what is really just an experienced individuals way of bullying children. No one who uses Nen in HxH would actually consider bloodlust threatening unless it's coming from a freak of nature that isn't supposed to exist realistically, like Meruem. It's so basic, that it's like knowing multiplication while a 6 year old barely knows addition and subtraction— the analogy being that those who don't understand it are dumb in the grand scheme of their reality, but that ignorance is understandable and expected from the perspective of those who actually know their shit. Think about it, Gon and Killua didn't even know about Nen Abilities when they first got taught the basics. They were that inexperienced. And just Ten...?

The point is, it's nothing more than a shroud. Then energy surrounding you, and as a weakness of the applications of bloodlusted Nen, if you put that basic shit on, you're totally fine. It's why Nen Crush isn't even really a thing to other Nen users in the verse— the characters we follow just have extraordinary experiences (good luck or bad) that make getting destroyed by someone's Aura bloodlust more common than it actually is. So, since Ten is simple, with no actual substance to it besides it being covering your body in energy, the burden of proof for other verses to do something similar is equally low.

Lists include; Early Dragon Ball and up; at least in the anime they have Goku covering himself in a tiny aura on occasion. Ki is said to be invisible by toriyama and just like HxH doesn't have the auras surrounding them constantly, so you can get away with treating that similarly. Up to you. Later Dragon Ball makes this explicitly clear that you can use your aura to deflect and even dispel energy blasts. Goku once tore apart energy blasts just by powering up into SSJ3. The Auras have very strong tangible interactions with each other as well. I remember seeing their energy auras wrestke each other, and crackle together. What Ten does as a defense is essentially block the aura from reaching the user's body. It literally uses the user's aura as a shroud to defend against the aura of the opponent's, making contact with each other and the energies used. So, really, all you would need to prove is that the auras of the verse can make contact with the auras and energies of others in a way that protects the user if the shroud. Dragon Ball should definitely be capable of doing way more than that, since it does that and far more. Bleach; I've seen them flare an aura of Rei energy before and they constantly use their powers. You need to use your Reiatsu and shape it around your attacks constantly to avoid it reflecting back on you. Just because we don't see it, like in HxH, doesn't mean it's not there. Naruto: Jinchuriki and Chakra Cloaks, Susano'o, maybe even in general sometimes.

The reason why i'm saying this applies to other verses that use Auras in general is because of the literal counter to these abilities discussed. There's nothing supporting the idea that Nen— Especially Ten's particular defense is special. What we're given is a simple explanation.

I emphasize shroud because there's a difference between Ten and a huge energy shield. Ten is extremely passive and not even forcefully molded into a defense— that's just consequential of drawing it out and letting it coat you. It's literally just your aura coating you a bit more than normal. Yeah, it does defend against physical harm slightly, but it's so slight that it does next to nothing naturally in real combat. You need to use Ryu and Gyo for that.

What you seemed to be alluding to in my reading of it was that Nen is somehow special in this trait. That, rather than the shroud being as simple as a screen against what would normally be something that you'd be bare skinned to, like you don't have sunscreen against the Sun, it's something special to the system. There's no proof of that. Nothing about the introduction that Wing gave to Nen as a defense against the bloodlust read any more explicitly than the interpretation I gave you above. You'd have to theorize a bit more to gain that interpretation then a basic reading of it.

How do you defend against someone's Nen Bloodlust? Shroud yourself in your Aura. It's that simple. If you can do that, you should be able to defend against the effects of these things. There's no extra proof needed. To claim that someone has to prove that the shrouds a person creates are protective is a supportive argument, but it doesn't and shouldn't be the standard, because not only is the basic ability in verse a simple one that any verse can and has done, but it's extremely nitpicky.

You may as well hop on discord to debate this topic because I can't be bothered to keep throwing bibles at each other repeatedly. Your comments are too verbose with unnecessary information. I'll respond to this post though at least. Discord would be much more comvinient though.

I might have been wrong in what I interpreted from your response, so my bad. However, maybe you didn't recognize the idea you seem to be giving to me. I had read it as substance bullshit because that's the only way I could substantiate your interpretation.

It isn't my fault you misinterpreted my claim. You extrapolated a lot from it and created counter productive points which lead to no where when you could've just taken what I said at face value. So giving you ideas isn't my fault although maybe I could have been more clear.

Nothing said that this is a special characteristic of Nen, and in fact, there's more reason to believe this is the least special part of Nen— the defense against bloodlust— that is accomplished in a way that's easily attainable by any verse. There's no explicit statements that explain that Aura has a special trait or that the technique has a special mechanism or method to it. It's just anime spirit energy sunscreen from bad vibes.

Nen is inherently different from other energies in the way it works because it is a different verse and that's how things work in the verse. The problem here is there are added mechanics to the normal aura that isn't present in other verses and verse equalisation doesn't mean new abilities can be added because of how one aura works.

Ten is a defense against malicious aura or aura that has bad emotions projected into it to cause certain effects such as breaking minds, paralysis and even death to clarify. Yes it's in an animanga but some aspects of it differ to the energies in other animanga.

Also the difficulty of attainment in verse is irrelevant to the differing function.

not "intangible Nen" (which sounds like you're adding more to the concept to me— that you think that Nen could go through other battle auras physically when that's not substantiated)

Nen is invisible and intangible, seen in many, many cases. Just look at the functions of it like En.

Nothing about the explanation of Ten implies that its designed for any other purpose other than keeping the Aura from leaving the body so you don't die of exhaustion. The defensive increases are both minor, marginal, and likely an unintended consequence of having the Aura just simply cover you

Unture. It's shown to defend against the malice of Hisoka and break the barrier that was paralysing Gon and Killua. The also weren't killed and their minds didn't break and this was the effects of basic Ten.

Again, Ten is literally no different in terms of defense than any other whispy light around an anime dude. There's more Lore and deeper applications of it than covered, but at the end of the day, nothing besides the mechanic and interaction itself sets Ten apart from any other Shonen Battle Aura.

This is unture. There's the aspect of defense against the effects of other aura which isn't present in many other shounen. Other auras don't have the same effects either especially death inducment.

Not only is it's simplicity apparent in how it's fleshed out overall, and implied in its use and very nature, but it's actually the simplest interpretation as well. If I abridged what Wing said into a meme, it'd be as simple as saying— "Hey, you two. Don't walk towards him without having Ten. Your bare skinned asses will die like albinos without sunscreen if you take another step."

Again simplicity doesn't matter at all. That abrige is just a gross oversimplification of ten which would be funny.

There's nothing to say that Ten shrouds do anything other than cover the body with energy and that's it. Not actively. Not as a "barrier" that requires effort— the word implies that it's an actual defense against anything other than what is really just an experienced individuals way of bullying children. No one who uses Nen in HxH would actually consider bloodlust threatening unless it's coming from a freak of nature that isn't supposed to exist realistically, like Meruem. It's so basic, that it's like knowing multiplication while a 6 year old barely knows addition and subtraction— the analogy being that those who don't understand it are dumb in the grand scheme of their reality, but that ignorance is understandable and expected from the perspective of those who actually know their shit. Think about it, Gon and Killua didn't even know about Nen Abilities when they first got taught the basics. They were that inexperienced. And just Ten...?

Wrong again I suggest you re-rrad the scene where Gon and Killua's Ten blocks the effects of Hisoka's En. So yes it's a barrier. No one sees it as threatening because everyone has nen and a defense to block thosr effects. Ok again degree of ease and attainablitu means nothing. Gon and Killua were prodegies found 1 in 10 million stated by Wing which is why it was easy for them. Nen is actuslly very hard to obtain which is why only a handful of people in the verse hard it when taking into account the billions in their world. Anyway this is irrelevant.

The point is, it's nothing more than a shroud. Then energy surrounding you, and as a weakness of the applications of bloodlusted Nen, if you put that basic shit on, you're totally fine. It's why Nen Crush isn't even really a thing to other Nen users in the verse— the characters we follow just have extraordinary experiences (good luck or bad) that make getting destroyed by someone's Aura bloodlust more common than it actually is. So, since Ten is simple, with no actual substance to it besides it being covering your body in energy, the burden of proof for other verses to do something similar is equally low

Again "Nen Crush" being a basic thing in verse is irrelevant. "Nen Crush" isn't a prominent thing in verse because everyone has a defence. The burden of proof isn't low at all. You need to prove other verse auras have the same or similar defence mechanism ypu can't presuppose it because "lol aura" being an aura doesn't mean they all inherently work the same way. Also "substance" is not the term it's an effect of it not present in other verses.

Lists include; Early Dragon Ball and up; at least in the anime they have Goku covering himself in a tiny aura on occasion. Ki is said to be invisible by toriyama and just like HxH doesn't have the auras surrounding them constantly, so you can get away with treating that similarly. Up to you. Later Dragon Ball makes this explicitly clear that you can use your aura to deflect and even dispel energy blasts. Goku once tore apart energy blasts just by powering up into SSJ3. The Auras have very strong tangible interactions with each other as well. I remember seeing their energy auras wrestke each other, and crackle together. What Ten does as a defense is essentially block the aura from reaching the user's body. It literally uses the user's aura as a shroud to defend against the aura of the opponent's, making contact with each other and the energies used. So, really, all you would need to prove is that the auras of the verse can make contact with the auras and energies of others in a way that protects the user if the shroud. Dragon Ball should definitely be capable of doing way more than that, since it does that and far more. Bleach; I've seen them flare an aura of Rei energy before and they constantly use their powers. You need to use your Reiatsu and shape it around your attacks constantly to avoid it reflecting back on you. Just because we don't see it, like in HxH, doesn't mean it's not there. Naruto: Jinchuriki and Chakra Cloaks, Susano'o, maybe even in general sometimes.

Nen is intangible and invisible. I don't remember DB aura being invisible but whatever. Whilst DB aura interactions are more tangible. Nen is intangible. Which doesn't make this a fair comparison. Bleach aura is intangible and invisible but it's made of soul particles in Bleach which again doesn't make it a fair comparison. Susanoo is specific to Uchiha, Chakra Cloaks are tangible and in general chakra is tangible and isn't used as a barrier.

The reason why i'm saying this applies to other verses that use Auras in general is because of the literal counter to these abilities discussed. There's nothing supporting the idea that Nen— Especially Ten's particular defense is special. What we're given is a simple explanation.

It isn't a counter at all. Chakra, Ki or whatever doesn't inherently counter any of the nen effects.

I emphasize shroud because there's a difference between Ten and a huge energy shield. Ten is extremely passive and not even forcefully molded into a defense— that's just consequential of drawing it out and letting it coat you. It's literally just your aura coating you a bit more than normal. Yeah, it does defend against physical harm slightly, but it's so slight that it does next to nothing naturally in real combat. You need to use Ryu and Gyo for that.

This doesn't matter. Ten provides the defense needed as said above. No matter how slight the aura. I don't need context I understand HxH.

What you seemed to be alluding to in my reading of it was that Nen is somehow special in this trait. That, rather than the shroud being as simple as a screen against what would normally be something that you'd be bare skinned to, like you don't have sunscreen against the Sun, it's something special to the system. There's no proof of that. Nothing about the introduction that Wing gave to Nen as a defense against the bloodlust read any more explicitly than the interpretation I gave you above. You'd have to theorize a bit more to gain that interpretation then a basic reading of it.

Nen is special in that regard because no other verse has the abilities provided by simply exerting your emotions in aura. No other Shounen Battle Aura has shown the defense and verse equalisation doesn't grant abilities.

How do you defend against someone's Nen Bloodlust? Shroud yourself in your Aura. It's that simple. If you can do that, you should be able to defend against the effects of these things. There's no extra proof needed. To claim that someone has to prove that the shrouds a person creates are protective is a supportive argument, but it doesn't and shouldn't be the standard, because not only is the basic ability in verse a simple one that any verse can and has done, but it's extremely nitpicky.

Yes shroud yourself in aura with the same defense capabilities as nen or similar. Proof is needed to prove the defensr capabilities it isn't something that can be presupposed. It isn't merely supportive, it's needed and it should be a standard otherwise we would be granting other verses, verse specific abilities even though they've never been displayed in verse which is fallicious. Show me examples of every verse "can and has done" the same effects of ten and malicious aura. It isn't nitpicky, it's logical

I can agree with the last point a bit more thinking about it, but the argument that you're making still sounds to me like you think there's a unique quality of the substance of Aura in HxH which is not directly stated, but interpreted based on the affects. I do think it would be fair to view the different verses who do have aura interacting with other auras.

What I'm saying is, the only thing special in the interaction between hisoka's En and their Ten is hisoka's En. The En itself can have the malicious aura affects, but the point is, the defense isn't explicitly special. You're saying that it's special because it's different, and while I can see why that makes sense, just because one verse does something differently doesn't mean it's actually so unique that it needs to be viewed so seperarely.

Nen is DEFINITELY not intangible all the time, for one. How would it blast holes in walls and crack the ground and shit? How would it blow away trees or cause windstorms? Even then, you don't need to have intangible energy or invisible energy to have all of the requirements to block it. The way you brought up intangible, even now, read to me as if you think that this Aura can go through any barrier not specifically designed to ward off emotional affects, when there's no statement for that, and it's demonstrably false, given that even basic Ten has neither actual emotional defense, nor is anything higher demonstrated to be capable of seeping through the auras of others— at least, the aura itself doesn't slip through, the effects do. And from that, we already have the counter. Ten doesn't even focus on the mental affects— not only is it designed to keep their aura from your body and that's it, the mental affects can still go through. The Ten defense, specifically, exists to shield your body from the other person's aura. Not only is it NEVER stated that Aura as a substance (because that's the only explanation left— there's no technical explanation or anything that was explicitly stated) is able to catch and nullify emotional Nen attacks, not only does it explicitly NOT do that, as they can still feel the bloodlust— but the actual explanation of it is literally just as I said. Ten exists to stop the aura of another person from making contact with your person. It's not a special defense in that regard. All it's doing is stopping your aura from reaching my body with my OWN energy.

If a verse can prove they can do that, which is exactly the defense to the phenomena, then they have similar requirements to Ten. Again, Ten isn't a unique defense. What Hisoka did, however, is a unique offense. If I were arguing that Goku could Nen Crush Gon, i'd Need to prove he can transmit emotions through his aura. But i'm not. I'm arguing that Goku can avoid being Nen Crushed, because the way you avoid it isn't through some special substance nature of Aura, nor through a specific technique or enchantment the shroud applies. The way you do it is by using YOUR aura to block THEIR Aura from touching your body. And Dragon Ball has that in spades.

Ten isn't a special defense. It's a basic defense that any verse could replicate to a unique offense. You're relying on the demonstration that Hisoka's moment gives you to interpret a unique aspect of Ten, when there's no evidence that explicitly corroborates your interpretation outside of that moment, and even within that moment, the explanation I have given you— which is about the same explanation as what is given period more or less— coincides with th basic interpretation of the events as well. It defies Occam's razor to assume Ten has a unique trait to it without evidence— and to interpret it interacting with a unique element as proof of that unique trait when it takes less assumptions, relies on more information given in the story, and is literally the simplest way to describe it, as Occam's Razor suggests— is... Bad. The evidence we have of Ten is that it defends from other auras touching you. Not that it defends from emotional attacks. The emotional attacks come rom the aura touching you, and the defense against them is doing that.

Aura being intangible is neither strictly true constantly nor relevant to the conversation really. Jinchuriki Chakra cloaks accomplish the same defenses.

And i'm neither interested in giving out my discord, nor in talking. I need to organize my thoughts, so o prefer written exchanges.

You weren't completely clear and I still think what I gleaned from your stance is relevant, considering you believe that the Ten aura s somehow a unique defense, rather than the whole thing being a unique interaction. The thing the defender needs to avoid the affect is the same defensive strategy. They don't need to replicate the same interaction as HxH, especially when by your own standards, HxH characters wouldn't pass.

Again, Ten has no unique qualities. The Emotionsl defense is a consequence of stopping your opponent's aura from touching you using YOUR aura, nothing more, and there's no statement that clarifies your position as the correct one, while mine literally says exactly what I am saying, is the simplest interpretation with the least assumptions, and follows even more evidence to the contrary to your idea, given the fact that Ten doesn't even nullify the emotional affects, and if your opponent is just THAT BOI you're still not gonna like even SEEING their aura. Like Knov v Pitou.

The problem is, you think that the other verses need to replicate a defense against the emotional thing, when not only is the emotional thing not what is being directly blocked, but considering the fact that it is the aura specifically that is being blocked, nor the effects, no verse needs to encounter anything similar to THAT part.

It's like saying the only way X medicine and Y medicine can cure the same thing is if Y medicine is in Pill form, like X medicine is. When that's not logical. You'd be nitpicking then, because you're looking for similarities that don't need to exist.

You're under the assumption I won't let you think before you speak if on discord. It's more convinient for me. Seems like you're gishgalloping.

You're under the misconception that sitting down and thinking before you speak is comparable to having a well thought out written response, and it seems to me that you seem more interested in winning an argument with me in private than posting the ideas you have for everyone to see. Which is a shame, because you're making me think a little harder about something I thought was simpler than now.

Also, it's hard to substantiate a complaint that someone is gishgalloping as a meaningful issue in a written discussion, where you can take your sweet time addressing each point with as little or as much detail as you choose. If you don't want to type, then don't. No ones forcing you to share your opinion. I'm just not gonna give out my personal contact information just to have an argument with someone for no reason and for no other benefit to anyone— all for me to **** up by misspeaking because I talk without thinking 5 steps ahead about what i'm Going to say.

First response: It is when given enough time to think about it. Also I'm not sure why you think I'd be so forceful and hostile. I want to debate it with you in a civilised manner because it's more convinient for me and for you as well because it would save time. I don't have much time to be responding to huge posts repeatedly I have other obligations.

Second response: The reason I said that was because your posts are full of context related information which isn't needed and the same points repeated over and over. Which I feel is very verbose and gives me a lot to respond to. I feel like this is something to rectify because of my passion for HxH so while I'm not forced to do this I enjoy it as a hobby alongside the hobby of reading the manga. Discord isn't really that personal but I'm not forcing you. It's fine I can you're more comfortable with this so I'll stop asking.

Cool.

That being said, my position when summarized is that while the interaction and the offensive application of Nen is unique, the defense against the emotional attack has less to do with whatever techniques or substance that makes Nen unique in fiction but more to do with a rather common, simple defense. Covering yourself in Aura so that their aura doesn't touch you. As such, if the standard for defending similarly as Ten does against the Bloodlust of others is how we're judging who can avoid what affects, they are as follows;

1. Is a life force/spiritual energy substance (Personally i'd place this as criteria to keep any old scientific fields from interfering in Aura, which is definitely not done in HxH)

2. Is an aura that surrounds the body

3. Is consistently able to defend against other auras and types of energy in a similar way to Ten— that being blocking Aura with Aura.

If there's a similar interaction between auras in the verse being equalized in question, that's strong supporting evidence. But these are what I view as the basic requirements for a discussion to occur on if Nen Crush can happen to the character that's encountering it.

I'll answer in more detail when I have time but you do realise En is intangible right? In all cases it's intangible. When nen is incoporated into specific techniques it can become tangible but when Hisoka used his nen as a force it was intangible.

Yeah, but that doesn't really change anything. In most verses, their spiritual energy is "intangible" in the sense that it's not condensed into an active form to harm things similar to Ten. Goku vs Trunks demonstrates this. Goku was making physical contact with Trunks' Sword, his Ki radiating out of his augmented finger rather than the aura he had blocking the strokes themselves. When Gohan covered his fist in energy to punch Goku when they fought before the ToP, AND more iconically, when Vegito was using his glowing punch on Zamasu just prior to defusing, the aura wasn't what was hurting or even touching them, it was the fist itself. Exactly the same as Ko and Ryu strikes, where it's less surrounding the attack in a bubble and more enhancing the attack itself. In the 2011 anime, when Wing uses Shu on a piece of paper to cut a glass, we see that the aura is hardening and straightening, and strengthening the paper into a blade. Rather than surrounding the paper and becoming a blade itself, as if it was a barrier or energy sword that traced the paper's shape. This further supports what we're already shown. That these effects are enhancing the object or strike rather than becoming hard and hitting them with the actual substance.

I bring this up because not only is that an example of "intangible" Ki, as En and the little aura that surrounds your hand in Ko or Gyo or your Shovel in Shu are both intangible, almost like steam or air. Things pass through them. Just like in Dragon Ball with your Ki. You can control it's density, it's shape, it's affects. Not only is that an example of intangibility but you bringing it up seems to imply that the intangibility not only matters in terms of the En vs Ten interaction, but that it could perhaps be able to flow through the auras of other characters due to being intangible.

And that's, to my knowledge, never been stated or elaborated on in any way to be true, and the fact that Wing's explanation + the simplest, least assumption and added theorizing based interpretation of the Hisoka incident exist implies that wouldn't happen, due to aura literally blocking "intangible" En from seeping through, whilst the bloodlust doesn't.

"But!" You could say, "That means that Nen can interact with intangible things, right? Checkmate!"

No, not so fast. Already, the idea that En can deep through energies due to being intangible is a theory based on some information about En and now, the counter to that flaw is another explanation that creates another theory that has no explicit statement or explanation from the verse itself to support it? It's an outside theory to explain problems with another outside theory away, and that's not concrete in the slightest. Not to mention, En typically is supposed to be intangible. Making a physical, tangible barrier that extends beyond your body's reach is a Transmutation skill, and aura is typically as intangible as air when not being used to attack. Just like Ki. Just like Chakra. And many more. And just like when HxH characters use their Ren, their aura which was once as intangible as air, becomes as tangible as wind, depending on how much power they're exuding.

I'm not saying that intangibility and NPI should be added to any character sheets on any Dragon Ball or Naruto characters, nor am I claiming that this should be removed (directly, at least— I don't recall hearing any statement about Nen being like Stands, intangible to non-users and only affectable by other Nen users who use Nen to come into contact— and even then, I still think certain abilities need notes so that we don't have Gon punching Stands because he has NPI from his verse that's originally specific to his verse's power system).

I'm just saying that, even if you go there, not only is there no evidence to my knowledge of En being able to go through auras that are non-Nen based (which don't exist, because obviously), and there's even more evidence for an argument that the intangibility of En is neither unique, nor unequal to the intangibility of every other verse's auras. En, is not only typically designed to be intangible so that it can be a radar system for the user, and not only would it be difficult for it to be the alternative unless you're a high level transmutation type, but there's never been a case that even makes it explicit that En would go through anyone else's Aura (in general, unless you're talking a gap in power that's normie vs Royal Ant Guard Big, at best— but I might be misremembering how Knov got Nen Crushed, his phrasing implies he didn't even touch the aura. Just LOOKED at it and he shat himself).

Animanga spirit energy is basically as intangible as air in many verses when not being used in an attack, but becomes that when any verse activates their "Ren" equivalents and beyond. So I don't see how it would need to be an extra criteria that the Chi is intangible when not only is that as common as energy itself, to the point of being a given, but it... Isn't even actually relevant in their own verse. En being intangible didn't matter. Ten is to keep that aura away from your body, and they don't have to be thicker than air to do that so long as they can stop each other. No NPI necessary. Air can touch air (sorta), and while fire usually just fuses together when pushed against each other, i'm sure plasma and lightning can hit each other if we aim them at each other in an experiment.

You're gonna need a statement for this type of thing— to say that Nen is intangible but is only tangible to Nen or that it can become tangible according to the will of the user, or some "Only Stands can hurt other Stands" statement that clarifies only Nen can interact with Nen, rather than us making the natural inference and assuming that it's like air and increases in tangibility depending on its strength, the amount, it's type of use, and everything normal about this trope, because in general, these plasma energy substances are like fire or light, they physically exist and can interact with the world but can't be grabbed by solid hands. Due to them being gaseous or gas like.

That's fine I'll answer this soon.

Calling it verse specific and saying nen has special properties just because it happens in HxH and the name of the aura is "nen" is fallacious, when the basics of the attack is to emit aura with malice that can be blocked if the user also emits aura, which is just enveloping one's body in energy. Therefore a normal human isn't able to block it.

This is literally the worst argument when people try to say a certain energy is different and it is a special property of that energy and people with only that kind of energy can or cannot do something because the energy has different name despite having a plethora of similarities with the most basic energy of all. Verse equalization already enables both energies to interact with each other.

Slightly meaner way of saying what I think, but 10000% agree. Glad to know a staff member is on my side somewhat.

I didn't bother to read 90% of the walls of text here, but this is a very simple concept that shouldn't be very hard to grasp.

Ten is a specific ability that has been shown to block the effects in question. If X verse that uses aura/ki/whatever hasn't shown that it has the ability to do so, it doesn't have it. It's really that simple. That's how things have always been treated here. Nen isn't getting any special treatment in this regard, outside of possibly some slight misconceptions.

Likewise, when you're a character who's shown the ability to produce a barrier or some ability that can block something like Ren, regardless of whether it's energy or ki based mind you, it should go without saying that that would apply.

This has less to do with verse equalization and more to do with common sense.

It's not that simple. The reason why it works is one that is almost universal in fiction. It's actually common sense to know that the simplest explanation is the best one to go with, and the idea that Nen specifically blocks these effects is not just unfounded, but downright false as I have demonstrated. It doesn't block the affects, it blocks the aura itself, which has the affects in it. The aura field still doesn't stop the malice from being noticeable, or even from the affect harming you. It's just that, if you don't shield yourself from the aura, you're guaranteed ****** no matter how strong you are... At least, a gap between Normal Humans and Heaven's Arena Killua, to not NLF it.. Judging from your response though, you're not interested in actually having a conversation.

So if staff could validate this thread as legit, this can be closed, and I can link it wherever I find improper Nen Crush protocol.

To reiterate; Ten doesn't protect against emotion attacks, it protects against the aura, which may carry malice according to the user's intent, which still goes through in some form. The aura is the vehicle for the affect, and Ten stops the Aura from touching your body. If any verse can do this (most of them), then it should be able to defend against this affect.

Your first point is wrong actually. Specific properties of Nen need to be used to protect against hostile auras. They don't just shroud themselves to protect themselves, they use specific applications of Nen. For example Ten is needed to protect against Ren, they don't just block out aura with aura, but need advanced techniques to do so.

Ten is exactly part of the reason why this isn't true. Ko can be used to protect against aura attacks too, but it doesn't helpa gainst Ren.

Ok strawman.

You never actually addressed my point, so to reiterate. Nen, as an energy type, is nothing special. Nen users don't have some innate resistance to fear hax etc, and simply having the ability to use Nen doesn't even allow automatic protection in verse.

Ten, a specific ability, is a barrier that blocks aura attacks. Nen users specifically learn and utilize this ability for the purpose of protecting themselves from things like Ren. Simply having the ability to use aura isn't enough. They needed to master a technique that blocked the attack for them.

I'd say with how eager you are to wrap this up, you're the one who looks unwilling to have a conversation.

No. Ten is, word for word from Wing, what you use to block your opponent's aura with your own. If you can block an aura with your own aura, you can do an equivalent to Ten. It's that simple. Wing gives no more of an explanation than that, so to argue that it's so complex that you need to know the technique specifically and use its specific idiosyncrasies to block Ren is nothing but headcannon. The explanation for Ten is literally just a shroud of Aura that stops aura from touching your body. There are no unique mechanics, or traits or qualities given in the description above. All you're saying is that it's a special technique because it has a name and you need to learn how to do it— when the main reason for that is so you don't die from exahaustion via Aura rapidly leaking out of and away from you. Yeah, Ten has many unique properties to it, like the Longevity thing, but NONE of that is related to defending against Ren. At all. Given there's no explanation of that, ya know? So when Wing says you need to block their malicious Nen attack with aura, and doesn't say "Thanks to the insulary properties of this specific molecular construction of Aura, along with this special multi-layered mesh that holds its unique shape due to intense mental focus, you can block malicious Nen attacks.", I think assuming there's special bullshit in Nen that needs to be proven especially real in other verses is nonsense, and you want proof for something that doesn't need to be the case to defend against this phenomena, that being that they have auras that defend against this phenomena, when not even the actual verse does this. It defends against making contact with the aura, not the malicious stuff itself. The malice is defended as a result of the aura, its medium, being defending.

You literally didn't bother reading what I wrote when you said you would, and you initially wanted to change the nature of the debate into a private verbal argument away from the forum so that staff could follow along with the arguments being made, so I don't see how you've been trying to cooperate with this.

And other guy. You saying i'm wrong and that Nen is special because it "just is"— you didn't list anything that explains why, so it sounds like you think it's just because it has a name and unique affects— all of which have nothing to do with defending against Ren. Those being longevity and stamina preservation. Which Wing didn't even bring up in these scans.... so...

WHYNAUT said:

Your first point is wrong actually. Specific properties of Nen need to be used to protect against hostile auras. They don't just shroud themselves to protect themselves, they use specific applications of Nen. For example Ten is needed to protect against Ren, they don't just block out aura with aura, but need advanced techniques to do so.
Ten is exactly part of the reason why this isn't true. Ko can be used to protect against aura attacks too, but it doesn't helpa gainst Ren.

Click to expand...

Can you provide scans where it has been said that a user has to use a specific property of Nen to block the malicious aura attack and not everyone who can use an aura can be necessarily protected by it?

Because from the scans in the OP, literally anyone creating an aura is protected, not someone who can only use aura in a specific particular way.

Amexim said:

You literally didn't bother reading what I wrote when you said you would, and you initially wanted to change the nature of the debate into a private verbal argument away from the forum so that staff could follow along with the arguments being made, so I don't see how you've been trying to cooperate with this.

Click to expand...

What? You're definitely mistaking me for someone else.

Anyway, again with the strawmanning. Ten 1, isn't just "enveloping yourself in aura". It's a specific method of controlling it that has to be trained that involves maintaining the proper flow of aura around oneself. And 2, again, is a specific ability that acts as a barrier that simply having the ability to control aura doesn't allow.

There's no headcanon... Wing literally has Gon and Killua learn Ten specifically for the very purpose of defending themselves from emotional attacks, and he even uses Ren to demonstrate this. It's literally in the scans you posted in the op.

As much as I'd love to keep arguing this I have class in an hour. I'll be back in any case.

Edwellken said:

Ten 1, isn't just "enveloping yourself in aura". It's a specific method of controlling it that has to be trained that involves maintaining the proper flow of aura around oneself. And 2, again, is a specific ability that acts as a barrier that simply having the ability to control aura doesn't allow.

Click to expand...

1. You literally just described a normal aura. Yes any energy user has to envelop himself by maintaining the proper flow of energy around him. That's how any basic aura works.

2. I don't see any specific ability in that apart from creating aura to act as a barrier which characters of countless verses already do.

This is literally playing with words to present a painfully mediocre ability as something that's super complex and ultra specific. I know for a fact that even Matt and Cal are completely against this.

1. Fair enough, I worded it lazily because I was in a rush, but I'll provide actual scans later when I have the time. Sorry for that. Still, there's a separate and individual major point that I inadvertently allowed myself to get distracted from.

Ten has feats, descriptions and statements of blocking emotional attacks. Simply any random character with the ability to manipulate aura wouldn't have that without showing something similar. If their verse's version of aura has shown that ability, then so be it.

2. That's a simple enough fix. As I said above I'll come back with scans when I have enough time.

Edit:

AKM sama said:

This is literally playing with words to present a painfully mediocre ability as something that's super complex and ultra specific. I know for a fact that even Matt and Cal are completely against this.

Click to expand...

That wasn't my intention but I can see how it looks that way. Heck, a big part of my argument is that this whole thing is already being overcomplicated from a simple mechanic. Still I don't see what Matt and Cal have to do with any of this though.

AKM sama said:

Calling it verse specific and saying nen has special properties just because it happens in HxH and the name of the aura is "nen" is fallacious, when the basics of the attack is to emit aura with malice that can be blocked if the user also emits aura, which is just enveloping one's body in energy. Therefore a normal human isn't able to block it.

This is literally the worst argument when people try to say a certain energy is different and it is a special property of that energy and people with only that kind of energy can or cannot do something because the energy has different name despite having a plethora of similarities with the most basic energy of all. Verse equalization already enables both energies to interact with each other.

Click to expand...

You mean it's fallacious to give other auras certain abilities via verse equalisation because the crux of what I was saying was since nen auras actually have that propety of interaction and DBs ki doesn't even interact at all as aura unless it's manipulated as tangible energy. So no, saying "lol aura" so they act the same way is idiotic when there are clear abilities not present with other verse energies. Obviously a verse with a similar mechanic with the aura can be equalised not if the aura is just for show DB and doesn't actually do anything let alone offer protection from outside sources. Just address the main point: Not every verses aura acts as an intangible defense mechanism.

I don't know why you think "you're making it too complex" is a valid arguement that just seems like individual opinion. If you actually think nen is just a fancy aura and has no deeper mechanics to explain then I don't know what to tell you.