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Ben 10 Original Series Upgrade

Greenshifter

Greenshifter

10,398
4,564
Hello everyone, it's time for all of OS Ben's aliens (except Grey Matter) to get an Upgrade to 7A.

Age Doesn't Matter

Speaking of Galvanic Mechamorphs, Ship who is a baby Galvanic Mechamorph can become a battle armor for Julie who can then fight on par with Princess Looma who is rated as at least 7A, yet 10-year old Ben who transforms into Upgrade, the prime of the species, is rated as 8A.

Vilgax's "Amp"

The main reason for the distinction between OS and AF (and beyond): Vilgax, while amped with Ultimos' power and 9 other heroes getting "stomped" by Diamondhead, however Ben says he has a lot of practice with Diamondhead implying it's more of a skillstomp than anything. Diamondhead also uses new abilities like his crystals exploding on contact.

Ben 10 wiki also claims Ultimos regaining his power during "The Ultimate Enemy: Part 2" however I do not currently know if this is true, assuming it is tho we have a powered-down Vilgax in OV (thus as strong as he is in the OS or maybe even weaker, I'll get to this later) tanking a Techadon Dissipator shot (granted, his handcuffs took a part of the impact) while Sixsix, Sevenseven and Eighteight literally take cover on the ground, afraid of the impact, while previously they hurt low-7B, likely 7A Cannonbolt and survived his attacks.

Not only that but Vilgax uses steroids to boost his power in the OS and it could very well be that instead of using steroids that hurt him when he uses them, he chose to just absorb the power of 10 heroes to get to that same level of power in AF, meaning his powered-down self in OV should probably be weaker than his OS self (or maybe as strong) because while he seems to have his steroids again (those black cylinders on his body in OS and golden cylinders in OV), he doesn't really use them.

Everyone Else's "Amp"

Characters like Zs'skayr, Tetrax, Zombozo, Dr. Viktor, etc. are listed as at least-7A (or at least Low-7B, likely 7A for Zombozo) in AF and onwards while being tier 8 or low-7C in OS without ever being mentioned to get a boost in power (Zs'skayr did absorb the power of the Alpha Rune but he used it to resurrect Lord Transyl) in between OS and AF.

Anti-feats

This feat and these feats are not anti-feats because Vilgax was not yet cybernetically enhanced in the first one and the first Heatblast feat also got a tier 6 end which may be an outlier for now, but I plan to make a tier 6 revision later on.

Let's Do The Time War Agai

Every (17:45) single time someone time or dimensional travels they are shown comparable in speed, AP and durability to a 7A, independent of their age.

Also: It's hero time!

Notes

Ultimate Aggregor is accepted as at least 7A in this thread

Future Doctor Animo being 7A is not accepted tho, but I might downgrade Way Big to 7A later on so that would make the feat legit + there a lot of problems with the future aliens and their scaling.

Even tho this Future Gwen is from a different timeline that UAF an OV Gwen (probably), her speed should still scale to Teen Gwen and thus OS XLR8 scales as well.

Pre-OS Vilgax being comparable to OV Ben could be an outlier or Ben just holding back because he doesn't want to mess up the timeline.
 
Rip, didn't realise this got posted.

Anyway, I agree with the different series scaling to each other. Every crosstime episode/event has multiple versions of characters who should stomp or get stomped by others from different series/time periods being relative to each other

  • Much younger Vilgax fighting OV Ben and even makes Eon do what he wants from getting slightly angry (And Then There Were None)
  • OS Ben blitzing and beating Future Gwen (Ben 10K)
  • OS Ben fighting Vilgax and Future Animo despite the former completely dominating Ben 10K (Ben 10K)
  • OS ben taking multiple hits from Ultimate Aggregor (Forge of Creation). You can say PIS but at that point why was he not just get KO'd from the start
  • OS Ben fighting Eon (RAT) despite Eon fighting a Ben 10K (Ben 10K Returns) and OV Ben (And Then There Were None)
  • OV Ben fighting Future Animo
What arguments even go against this? Age? There is what? One statement from UA Ben that being older = stronger. Even ignoring the examples listed above or in the OP, you have even more like Gwen 10 fighting 17-18 year old Bens, Devlin 11 fighting Ben 10K and Kevin 11K, Kenny slightly harming Kevin 11K etc etc
 
AnonymousBlank said:
and even makes Eon do what he wants from getting slightly angry
Click to expand...
Pretty sure that was OV Vilgax that scared Eon.

AnonymousBlank said:
What arguments even go against this?
Click to expand...
I think the only thing going against this for now is a thread that's more deserted than the Null Void, I'll contact some people.
 
I agree with this and it makes sense for OS Aliens to scale to AF, UA, and OV Aliens, especially because of all the time travel stuff where the aliens scale to each other even though some Omnitrix users vary in age.
 
Whenever 10 year old ben turns into an alien, it's consistantly an adult one, right? For example, Diamondhead and Four Arms.
 
I'm not very sure about this

Edit: Fair point

Vilgax didn't really get stomped tho, he was just defeated. And I think just being a significantly older version of a characters with different levels of a feat would justify division, even if this battle doesn't end up being the primary evidence

The "Steroid" thing also doesn't seem like anything significant. He is buffing up his muscles and that's it, don't see any evidence that his amp with the 9 heroes was to make up for losing this ability, which may not be much more than basic statistic amplification anyway

The point of him tanking the dissipator also only really works if you assume that version of Vilgax is as weak as OS, which isn't proven in any sufficient manner

Don't have too much of a problem, but unless they are explicitly as weak as their OS counterpart, the possibility of there being a division would still exist

Looking at the time travel stuff, I am seeing things that actually oppose this revision

First of is that Ben explicitly states he is stronger after growing older

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xomr5ETm4lk

Young Ben: How much stronger do I get when I'm older

Older Ben: A lot!

Molestaches also remarks the Vilgax he is fighting isn't as strong as the one he's familiar with

https://youtu.be/41UzgRAWECY?t=103

"I guess you aren't quite so Vilgaxy yet"

And he actually beats him fairly easily without taking a single blow. As XLR8 he was only kicked by Vilgax because of being distracted by the time out. I don't think this encounter establishes Vilgax is comparable to his older self, and in fact implies the opposite

Alternate timeline versions of Ben being comparable also isn't really proof of younger being comparable to his older self, although I guess Omnitrix gwen could be a good point
 
DNA is just the basis for your biology, you don't grow stronger by having your DNA change
 
I understand that.

What I mean is how is Ben getting a lot stronger compared to before. Is it just skill?
 
Not sure. All I know is that he has an explicit statement of being stronger and some other evidence, like Diamondhead defeating Vilgax in Alien Force whereas in OS he literally broke his hands punching him.

OS also only took place over the course of a summer vacation, so Ben from the later series might also have been capable of training with his aliens more.
 
Seems more or less reasonable. A 10 year old Ben from an alternate universe as Heatblast was able to knock out 16 year old UA Ben who was NRG and was fighting equaly with an armored Kevin iirc
 
I completely agree with the OP.

I think Ben's alien forms age with him to some extent. He ended up using baby forms when he was under the influence of the fountain of youth, and Ben 10K was a tailed Wildmutt form which is something Vulpimancers get as they age.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Whenever 10 year old ben turns into an alien, it's consistantly an adult one, right? For example, Diamondhead and Four Arms.
Click to expand...
There is a statement of Matt Wayne saying that the Omnitrix always gives an adult prime of a species however I think this was about OV Omnitrix + see SuperKamiNappa's reply is why I didn't add it to the OP. My argument isn't even that OS aliens = UAF and OV aliens, just that they are comparable enough to end up in the same tier.
 
@Andy I've seen threads where people called it a stomp but he wasn't stomped indeed.

I am fine with a division, OS forms can just downscale from UAF and OV forms but not enough to end up in a lower tier.

Fair enough on the steroid point but there is also no evidence that the amp with 10 heroes makes him stronger than with steroids cause the only hero we know is Ultimus and that would only give Vilgax a times 2 boost and the rest we just don't know.

About the dissipator shot: yeah, I also think he used laser beams in OV so until I can find a source for him losing his boost at the end of UA, just ignore it.

Ben getting a lot stronger could be referencing him actually getting a bit stronger (or lifting strenght if they just talk about Four Arms) + Ultimate Aliens + skill + Way Big. Also AF Ben oneshot Ssserpent with Cannonbolt while Kevin and Gwen were fighting him for an hour beforehand so OS Heatblast scaling to Armored Kevin actually makes sense.

This was pre-OS Vilgax who was not cybernetically enhanced yet and got taken out by a low-7C nuke by Max so this doesn't mean OS Vilgax is not comparable to OV Vilgax, I just mentioned it as an extreme, also being so Vilgaxy yet doesn't mean he doesn't scale at all because he still took some hits, but yeah Ben was distracted first and then used one of his weakest aliens as to probably not mess up the timeline and kill Vilgax.

Ben 23 is probably somewhere in between 12 and 14 years old so he's still a younger version of Ben.

Diamondhead never punched Vilgax's armor this time around tho and instead opted to let his crystals explode on impact.

There is a statement of Ben training with his aliens off-screen if you want I can search it for you.
 
The Omnitrix aliens are optimized adults of their respective species. - http://ben10.forumotion.co.uk/t130p875-qa-with-matt-wayne.

He was answering a question taking place during Ultimate Alien.

Q: Ben have dna of alien x but it have multiple personalities. The baby alien x havn't yet developed multiple personalities. So if ben had scaned dna of the baby alien x he could change the reality just by thinking without any multiple personality problem.

A: Has anything on the show led you believe that would work? The Omnitrix always gives an optimized adult of a species.
 
Yeah except that it doesn't seem to in the OS: Wildmutt, the way young Clockwork looks during Ben Again, Heatblast being a baby after drinking from the fountain of youth. They should still scale in power regardless tho.
 
Baby HB throwing a tantrum gets the same result as OS HB so it doesn't even make a difference whether its a 4 to a 10 year old, a 10 year old to a 30 year old, a 16 to a 30 year old or 17 to a 40 something year old. Literally each and every series in the continuity does this so why aren't we?
 
@Andy

So what are the conclusions here?
 
@Andy are you ok with the revisions or do you still have issues with some stuff? Also this would most likely remove all low-7B keys from the profiles cause OS Wildvine (who is one of Ben's weakest aliens) would scale to Frankenstrike and Ultimate Spidermonkey who are at least-7A and (negative) Armodrillo who is used as a basis for the low-7B, likely 7A aliens was able to hurt at least-7A Gravattack.
 
Unfortunately I'm not easy with okaying scaling between different transformation, especially if it's about an alien other than Atomix or Way Big scaling to ultimates.
 
Just to clarify, I'm not easy because I don't have in depth knowledge on concept. So it's hard to confirm scaling and consistency outside of clear cases
 
Thank you for helping out in any case.
 
When it comes to consistency tho I think Liger and his Feat Directory Wiki has that covered, here all of Ultimate Spidermonkey's (under base Spidermonkey) feats up to Ultimate Alien (no Omniverse yet and for some profiles it's only the OS and the OS links are broken but if you want info on a certain feat I can look it up for ya) and Four Arms's who scales to Negative Ultimate Spidermonkey based on this vid (is already on Ultimate Spidermonkey's page). The following pages may also be helpful: Wildvine who scales to the Yenaldooshi who scales to XLR8 (via the Mummy and Snare-oh) and here are Frankenstrike (should scale to Benzarro's Frankenstrike cause he and Ben Prime look the same age I guess), Kevi, Heatblast, Ultimate Aggregor and Stinkfly. And thank you very much for helping out!
 
MrLuk2000 said:
Seems more or less reasonable. A 10 year old Ben from an alternate universe as Heatblast was able to knock out 16 year old UA Ben who was NRG and was fighting equaly with an armored Kevin iirc
Click to expand...
Also, a 10 year old Heatblast was able to knock out an armored Kevin Levin.
 
True, NRG does have the best armor (except Taydenite Kevin) in the show and Armored Kevin wasn't even able to move P'andor in his suit with 7:34 multiple punches
 
Btw, I am noticing a problem with one of the arguments now

Ship contends with looma and Upgrade is being reasoned to be above him due to being "the prime of his species". However, looma is stronger that many of Ben's aliens and comparable to Four Arms, so I'm not sure if scaling that puts Upgrade above her actually adds up very well
 
Nah not above her, at best Teen Upgrade's energy beams are a bit stronger than her weapon and Young Upgrade downscales. Looma still won against Julie IIRC.
 
All right, time to get the ball rolling again.

Who agrees with this scaling chain?

Diamondhead's finishing move

AF Vilgax

Full size Humungousaur

AF top tiers (ex. Colossus Kevin, Humungousaur, Four Arms, Diamondhead) >> 352 megatons

AF mid tiers (ex. Swampfire, Spidermonkey, Armored Kevin) - OS top tiers (ex. Four Arms, Diamondhead, Feedback)

OS mid tiers (ex. Heatblast, XLR8, Eye Guy)

This is mostly based on OS Heatblast being able to hurt Armored Kevin and all the supporting evidence in the OP and the comments. This also holds for both low 7-B and 7-A (so basically all OS aliens would become at least low 7-B, likely 7-A).
 
You should ask the staff members listed in the Ben 10 verse page to comment here.
 
The Galvananic Mechamorph argument I'm seeing an issue with now, Chip fought someone who was comparable to Four Arms, but it is clear that Four Arms was ben's strongest aliens among the original 10, which includes upgrade. Overall it seems more likely that chip is an anomaly than that ten year old upgrade actually scales above or equal to him.

I'm overall not opposed to the revision tho

@Green Not sure I understand what the arrangement means very well
 
Princess Looma scales under Four Arms but I get where you are coming from, Ship also scales under Looma but I get where you are coming from and Ship is most likely an anomaly.

People on the same line are about equally as strong, people above them are stronger, people under them are weaker. Diamondhead's finishing attack is the strongest on this list due to practically oneshotting Vilgax.
 
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