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Proposing to downgrade Peter Quill and Ego from the MCU.

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TheDarkSide857

TheDarkSide857

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Let's see here: Quill is 5-A (Capable of harming and defeating Ego, who should have durability comparable to him due to being a full Celestial. Both Ego and him each possessed roughly half of the power needed for this)".

The "this" the profile is referring to is Ego overtaking the entire universe and assimilate all matter into himself until everything, quote on quote: "...is...me!" To even make that "this" possible, Ego placed extensions of himself across thousands of planets to help spread his matter across the universe over, according to the official MCU Profile on the MCU Wiki, millions of years. That means he's nowhere near 5-A as he had to spread extensions of himself across the entire universe in order to even achieve the feat, a.k.a. prep time. By extension, Celestial Quill isn't 5-A as well.

Quill being able to withstand the power of the Power Stone which is 5-A for a short time is also meaningless, as it has been explicitly stated that the Power Stone's output varies depending on the target:

The stone reacts to anything organic. The bigger the target, the bigger the power surge.
~ Gamora​
By extension, Quill didn't withstand 5-A energy, so the feat is no longer relevant.

I propose that we downgrade Peter Quill, Ego, and the other Celestials, and Peter Quill and Ego can only stay 5-A with the Expansion & prep time(prep time for Ego only). I don't know to what extent they should be downgraded, but maybe not to an extent where Doctor Strange somehow ends up leagues above them.
 
I was going to do this lmao.

You should also point out that Ego harming Quill means nothing, it has been established months ago that the power stone varies in power depending on the targer. Quill didn't shrug off 5-A energy, so the scaling is flawed.
 
Newendigo said:
I was going to do this lmao.
You should also point out that Ego harming Quill means nothing, it has been established months ago that the power stone varies in power depending on the targer. Quill didn't shrug off 5-A energy, so the scaling is flawed.
Click to expand...
Thanks.
 
What does him planting the plants over millions of years have to do with the feat? That is only its range which is increased through prep. Look at the calc itself. It specifically uses the expansion of the surge shown which has nothing to do with flowers being planted over millions years. Ego is also far above everything else shown aside from the Power Stone and it is consistent with Eson busting the planet with the Power Stone as nothing indicates he died in that. Quill can output half that power and Ego already could do that.

There is nothing to downgrade them at all.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
What does him planting the plants over millions of years have to do with the feat? That is only its range which is increased through prep. Look at the calc itself. It specifically uses the expansion of the surge shown which has nothing to do with flowers being planted over millions years. Ego is also far above everything else shown aside from the Power Stone and it is consistent with Eson busting the planet with the Power Stone as nothing indicates he died in that. Quill can output half that power and Ego already could do that.
There is nothing to downgrade them at all.
Click to expand...
Except Ego couldn't do it on his own, he had to plant thousands of plants on thousands of worlds in order for the feat to even be possible. I suggested in my own post that Ego can only stay 5-A "via the Expansion and prep time) and the plants have to be activated by Ego and Quill to even qualify for 5-A.

Eson did not bust the planet with the Power Stone, he only razed the surface. That doesn't qualify for 5-A. Heck, that doesn't even qualify for 5-C. Maybe for High 6-A but that's it.
 
Exactly. He couldnt perform hundred of 161 yottaton feats on his own so he got Peter to double his output so he could start his plan. Ego can output 80 yottatons by himself.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
Exactly. He couldnt perform hundred of 161 yottaton feats on his own so he got Peter to double his output so he could start his plan. Ego can output 80 yottatons by himself.
Click to expand...
Ego needed an Expansion plant he created through who-knows-what to output 80 yottatons. He is incapable of doing any 5-A feats due to being a planet and his avatar has never displayed any feats close to 5-A so it's illogical to think he can.
 
....... the plant is like a tramsmitter for his power to amp his range. His Avatar does have 5-A feats. Its called fighting Celestial Quill who performs half the feat. You are trying to call it an outlier but Celestials exist in a vacuum with 2 5-A feats. The other GotG could only damage rock tendrils which have been shown to have normal rock dura while a serious Avatar could only be harmed by Celestial Quill so he doesn't even have antifeats.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
....... the plant is like a tramsmitter for his power to amp his range. His Avatar does have 5-A feats. Its called fighting Celestial Quill who performs half the feat. You are trying to call it an outlier but Celestials exist in a vacuum with 2 5-A feats. The other GotG could only damage rock tendrils which have been shown to have normal rock dura while a serious Avatar could only be harmed by Celestial Quill so he doesn't even have antifeats.
Click to expand...
"Its called fighting Celestial Quill"

Who isn't even close to 5-A as it was already established that the Power Stone's output varies depending on the size of the target. Celestial Quill did not withstand 5-A energies, thus fighting him isn't applicable.

"Celestials exist in a vacuum with 2 5-A feats"

Both of which I debunked already. 1 required a transmitter that the user had to have and we don't even see the user himself being capable of the feat, and the other literally only razed the surface of a planet and killed all its life. That's it. According to William Mook, Assisted Bob Laughlin Energy & Aerospace and Aeronautical Engineering from Stanford University, vaporising all life on a planet's surface (scaling from Earth) would require 4*10^27 Joules.

4*10^27 Joules = 4e+27 Joules

4e+27 Joules = 956,022

1 Petaton = 1,000 Teratons

1 Exaton = 1,000 Petatons

1,000 X 1,000 = 1,000,000

Thus, 1 Exaton = 1,000,000 Teratons

956,022 - 1,000,000 = -43978

Not even enough to qualify for 1 Exaton. Thus, being in the range of High 6-A.
 
What other 5-A feat?

The one from the random celestial? That was done with Power stone not his own power, and scaling him to Ego would not make sense as he stated himself to be the weakest celestial (Much less his Human avatar). This also applies to Quill.

Also, I'm don't know calcs, but this assumes that the speed for the expansion takes 6 seconds to cover Earth in both ends. When in reality, it's way, way more slower that at best is High 6-A over time. An user even mentions this in the very calc.
 
Except you didnt prove anything. You just asserted your incorrect belief as fact. I am not basing anything on him taking the Power Stone energies, I am basing it on him being able to output half of the feat, 80 yottatons, which is 5-A. You can't say its an outlier when its a new form that only fights a guy who has equivalent power and has no antifeats of any sort.

Denying them with nothing but your opinion is not debunking anything.

Do you know what a transmitter is? It sends off signals to a reciever. It doesn't amp the output in anyway, just the range which is exactly what Ego used it for as he didn't possess the range for his plan. All the energy for the feat belongs to Ego but he simply doesn't have the output for the full feat hence using Quill to double it. If he can output so and so energy by himself and so can Quill, and the two fight each other and are shown to be comparable, they both clearly scale to the half feat.

If you disagree with the Power Stone calc, go and make a CRT for that as well. Its not even for vaporizing everything on the surface as that is completely different from a surface wipe. Surface wipe is for the detonation of a bomb whose blast radius will spread over the entirety of a planet which requires far more energy than simply calcing the energy required to vape the mass of life on the earth's surface.

Edit: Him holding the Infinity Stone is simply a supporting feat as Ego straight up says that only a child of his (a Celestial) could survive the power of an Infinity Stone. This would also imply that Eson didn't die from being in the epicenter of the Power Stone feat as it makes no sense for people to just commit suicide Surtur-style for a planet bust. Considering the Collector's list of recorded feats the ISs could accomplish, this has clearly been done multiple times.
 
Not like it matters, the expansion calc is based on an false assumption that the speed of the complete terraformation takes 6 seconds when its not. That calc is unrelieable.
 
The calc's timeframe is based on what he shows Quill and how the flowers cover planets at the same rate despite wildly varying sizes. If all of these different planets get covered at the same rate, then its obvious that it is slower on some while fast on others. If you wanna debunk it, then you need to give the size of the planets it only covers a city block in 10 secs. You also need to remember that Asgatf is considered a planet so it travelling absurdly slowly in a scene isn't exactly weird.
 
The problem it that Numbers assumes 6 seconds from an holographic Projection (That was mainly an example of how the expansion works). None of the planets were covered in such timeframe when real shit started.

The fact that the speed doesn't change from planets (In action) futher improves my point that the estimate timeframe is false.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
The calc's timeframe is based on what he shows Quill and how the flowers cover planets at the same rate despite wildly varying sizes. If all of these different planets get covered at the same rate, then its obvious that it is slower on some while fast on others. If you wanna debunk it, then you need to give the size of the planets it only covers a city block in 10 secs. You also need to remember that Asgatf is considered a planet so it travelling absurdly slowly in a scene isn't exactly weird.
Click to expand...
It still has to completely destroy the planet to be 5-A. That's not 5-A. That's just higher into High 6-A.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
Except you didnt prove anything. You just asserted your incorrect belief as fact. I am not basing anything on him taking the Power Stone energies, I am basing it on him being able to output half of the feat, 80 yottatons, which is 5-A. You can't say its an outlier when its a new form that only fights a guy who has equivalent power and has no antifeats of any sort.
Denying them with nothing but your opinion is not debunking anything.

Do you know what a transmitter is? It sends off signals to a reciever. It doesn't amp the output in anyway, just the range which is exactly what Ego used it for as he didn't possess the range for his plan. All the energy for the feat belongs to Ego but he simply doesn't have the output for the full feat hence using Quill to double it. If he can output so and so energy by himself and so can Quill, and the two fight each other and are shown to be comparable, they both clearly scale to the half feat.

If you disagree with the Power Stone calc, go and make a CRT for that as well. Its not even for vaporizing everything on the surface as that is completely different from a surface wipe. Surface wipe is for the detonation of a bomb whose blast radius will spread over the entirety of a planet which requires far more energy than simply calcing the energy required to vape the mass of life on the earth's surface.

Edit: Him holding the Infinity Stone is simply a supporting feat as Ego straight up says that only a child of his (a Celestial) could survive the power of an Infinity Stone. This would also imply that Eson didn't die from being in the epicenter of the Power Stone feat as it makes no sense for people to just commit suicide Surtur-style for a planet bust. Considering the Collector's list of recorded feats the ISs could accomplish, this has clearly been done multiple times.
Click to expand...
That would not be utterly destroying the planet, though. That's just razing the surface. So, higher into High 6-A.

And besides, we shouldn't judge Ego's power by the transmitter range, otherwise Dio's time stop wouldn't be resisted by a bunch of people.
 
Actually, I'm going to ask Numbers as he is the one that performed the calc.

Gimi a moment.
 
It doesn't have to be a planet bust to be planet level. A basic surface wipe being High 6-A doesn't stop a surface wipe feat from being much higher. It all depends on how fast the blast travels and what it moves.

We also aren't judging his power by his range. You are either strawmanning or not understanding what I am saying. His AP is judged by the blue stuff rapidly covering planets, the flowers only allow him to do so across the universe. Your Dio analogy also sucks as its a hax not AP.
 
Although I am the one who performed the calc, I don't know if I'm knowledgeable enough to defend the feat itself. I don't know if I can contribute much here.
 
I hope people realizes that the prep time for the feat was simply to give Ego range to perform his feat and doesn't actually mean he doesn't have the energy output necessary. From what I see, he could only muster up half the power needed to perform it and thus needed Quill. The calc put it at 160 yottatons and they would individually be half of that.

The Power Stone feat was just a supporting feat at best. Heck, the fact that they have been confirmed to destroy planets or at least raze their surfaces and come out fine also supports them being in the planetary range.

In short, I don't think this is really valid, especially considering that this seems like its already been brought up before and dealt with.
 
ArbitraryNumbers+ I'm going quote myself to make my point clear:

"Also, I'm don't know calcs, but this assumes that the speed for the expansion takes 6 seconds to cover Earth in both ends. When in reality, it's way, way more slower that at best is High 6-A over time. An user even mentions this in the very calc."

Do you think that the calc is wrong/outdated? Or is fine and I actually missed something?

Planck+ If the Celestials have feats of destroying/wiping planets on their own, that is okay, but the power stone feat is uncountable as that was AMP.
 
I can't really defend the calc itself, either. I guess it wasn't really correct to assume the timeframe was 6 seconds, especially when the timeframe I used was retrieved from a visual depiction rather than the actual thing.
 
Late bump.

So perphaps, can we remove the Calc justification and downgrade both Quill and Ego?
 
AnonymousBlank said:
It doesn't have to be a planet bust to be planet level. A basic surface wipe being High 6-A doesn't stop a surface wipe feat from being much higher. It all depends on how fast the blast travels and what it moves.
We also aren't judging his power by his range. You are either strawmanning or not understanding what I am saying. His AP is judged by the blue stuff rapidly covering planets, the flowers only allow him to do so across the universe. Your Dio analogy also sucks as its a hax not AP.
Click to expand...
So you judge attack potency based on the speed of the attack...?

Oh well, since the Solar Flare travels at the speed of light, it's 4-B as it could blind Cell.

See the fallacy in that statement?
 
TheDarkSide857 said:
So you judge attack potency based on the speed of the attack...?

Oh well, since the Solar Flare travels at the speed of light, it's 4-B as it could blind Cell.

See the fallacy in that statement?
Click to expand...
Uhhh...

K.E. = 1/2 * m * v2

  • m = mass
  • v = velocity which is speed.
Depending on the context, the speed of an attack definitely plays a role in its potency.
 
@DarkSide

What kind of awful comparison was that? While I have no clue about what DB analogy you are making, lightspeed or faster can't be used to calculate KE and blinding someone dorsn't translate to AP in any shape or form.

The only fallacies so far were ones you used. Literally every comment you post just reinforces that you don't even understand the reasoning behind the math at all.
 
Anonymous+ Arb just said that he can't really defend the very calc itself, so downgrade yes-or-yes.
 
Jvando said:
TheDarkSide857 said:
So you judge attack potency based on the speed of the attack...?

Oh well, since the Solar Flare travels at the speed of light, it's 4-B as it could blind Cell.

See the fallacy in that statement?
Click to expand...
Uhhh...

K.E. = 1/2 * m * v2

  • m = mass
  • v = velocity which is speed.
Depending on the context, the speed of an attack definitely plays a role in its potency.
Click to expand...
But that is inapplicable since Ego's terraformation isn't being thrown or boosted in any way.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
@DarkSide
What kind of awful comparison was that? While I have no clue about what DB analogy you are making, lightspeed or faster can't be used to calculate KE and blinding someone dorsn't translate to AP in any shape or form.

The only fallacies so far were ones you used. Literally every comment you post just reinforces that you don't even understand the reasoning behind the math at all.
Click to expand...
But that is inapplicable since Ego's terraformation isn't being thrown or boosted in any way. It has no velocity which I can see, so Ego's AP isn't getting any higher.(B'cause he's half of it)
 
....... I am talking about the spread of the blue stuff. If the "blast" is moving faster, then it is obviously stronger.
 
If the spread of the mass is slow like, for example, the running speed of a normal human, it definitely has a weak energy or power (depending on the mass). But if it was like the speed of a speeding vehicle, it's definitely more destructive.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
....... I am talking about the spread of the blue stuff. If the "blast" is moving faster, then it is obviously stronger.
Click to expand...
Sniper bullets move far faster than Nukes, yet they are nowhere near as strong. The same applies here. You can't assume that a weapon is far stronger just because it's far faster. It has to be proven to be stronger than what I've calculated.
 
And you once again fail to understand physics, exemplified with another poor analogy. "Nukes" have multiple speeds at which they go. First we have the bomb itself which can be dropped or carried by some kind of propellant (see warheads). Then we have the detonation which can itself be broken up into separate speeds such as the speed at which it detonates, the radiation released (lightspeed) and the actual blast wave. Given the context of our conversation, you should be referring to the blast wave, as the spread of the blue stuff was the topic, but that goes mach 5 before it slows due to being spread over an increasingly large area. Based on the comparison you made though, you clearly aren't referring to that as it just proves you wrong again and likely refer to it being dropped or smth which is just a false equivalency.

You seem to be missing my point. The blue stuff has mass, it travels faster than you say, thus it is stronger than what you say as shown in the calc.

You didn't calculate anything. You linked an article where someone else calculates something else entirely. Explain why that is relevant?
 
I'm rather sure 5-C would be the appropriate rating if they get dowgraded. Ego says his planet is no larger than Earth's Moon and that they can controlt he planet to the extent that they'd like to their whim.
 
TheDarkSide857 said:
Sniper bullets move far faster than Nukes, yet they are nowhere near as strong. The same applies here. You can't assume that a weapon is far stronger just because it's far faster. It has to be proven to be stronger than what I've calculated.
Click to expand...
The fist one is a bullet, the other one's a bomb.

Have two objects with the same mass and give them different speeds. Both will yield different energy. We're talking about a fixed mass here, in this instance the Expansion mass.

Also don't compare two things with completely different properties.
 
TheDarkSide857 said:
Let's see here: Quill is 5-A (Capable of harming and defeating Ego, who should have durability comparable to him due to being a full Celestial. Both Ego and him each possessed roughly half of the power needed for this)".
The "this" the profile is referring to is Ego overtaking the entire universe and assimilate all matter into himself until everything, quote on quote: "...is...me!" To even make that "this" possible, Ego placed extensions of himself across thousands of planets to help spread his matter across the universe over, according to the official MCU Profile on the MCU Wiki, millions of years. That means he's nowhere near 5-A as he had to spread extensions of himself across the entire universe in order to even achieve the feat, a.k.a. prep time. By extension, Celestial Quill isn't 5-A as well.

Quill being able to withstand the power of the Power Stone which is 5-A for a short time is also meaningless, as it has been explicitly stated that the Power Stone's output varies depending on the target:

The stone reacts to anything organic. The bigger the target, the bigger the power surge.
~ Gamora​
By extension, Quill didn't withstand 5-A energy, so the feat is no longer relevant.

I propose that we downgrade Peter Quill, Ego, and the other Celestials, and Peter Quill and Ego can only stay 5-A with the Expansion & prep time(prep time for Ego only). I don't know to what extent they should be downgraded, but maybe not to an extent where Doctor Strange somehow ends up leagues above them.
Click to expand...
I feel like the 'Varies' key should be added for the Orb and the Infinity Gauntlet from that statement.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
And you once again fail to understand physics, exemplified with another poor analogy. "Nukes" have multiple speeds at which they go. First we have the bomb itself which can be dropped or carried by some kind of propellant (see warheads). Then we have the detonation which can itself be broken up into separate speeds such as the speed at which it detonates, the radiation released (lightspeed) and the actual blast wave. Given the context of our conversation, you should be referring to the blast wave, as the spread of the blue stuff was the topic, but that goes mach 5 before it slows due to being spread over an increasingly large area. Based on the comparison you made though, you clearly aren't referring to that as it just proves you wrong again and likely refer to it being dropped or smth which is just a false equivalency.
You seem to be missing my point. The blue stuff has mass, it travels faster than you say, thus it is stronger than what you say as shown in the calc.

You didn't calculate anything. You linked an article where someone else calculates something else entirely. Explain why that is relevant?
Click to expand...
I meant the sniper bullet is faster than the bomb itself when both are fired.

It doesn't travel very fast, though...

Because it calculates what energy would be required for "mowing down civilizations like wheat in a field".
 
So a false equivalency. The explosive rightfully explodes while the bullet's power comes purely from KE. The funny part is that the nuke getting launched has far more KE than the bullet anyway, the difference is in the size of both objects and the surface area when it hits something. The bullet is penetrative while the nuke is like a battering ram.

You seem to have missed the fact its based on the 3d powerpoint Ego showed and that the speed of the blue stuff varies from planet to planet as all take 6 seconds.

No. It calculates the energy to vaporize all living beings on the earth's surface. A blast wave from a bomb wiping the surface takes very different amounts of energy. You also act as if surface wipes cant vary in magnitude. A blast wave is constantly slowung down at a ridiculous rate due to pushing more and more mass (air and such) and the initial force being spread throughout an increasingly large area. So if a blast covers a planet in 6 seconds, the initial impact/explosion etc etc needs to be far stronger to wipe the planet than a bomb that takes 20 seconds. As you can hopefully understand now, faster spread = bigger boom.
 
Okay, here is my proposal for Ego:

Attack Potency: At least Building Level (Fought against a Celestial Quill, destroyed some of the infrastructure within the moon in the battle), higher by enhancing his attacks with Matter Manipulation | At most Moon level with Environmental Destruction (Has full control over his moon, allowing him to manipulate landmasses, create earthquakes, and cast storms around the surface)

Lifting Strength:At least Class 1 (Comparable to Quill) | At least Class M (Could restrain the Quadrant ship even while using it's thrusters), like higher

Striking Strength: At least Building Class (Can trade blows with Celestial Star-Lord)

Durability: At least Building level (Took several hits from Celestial Quill), higher by enhancing his endurance with Matter Manipulation | Unknow for his brain (The bomb rocket created to kill Ego was made from interdimensional Sovereign batteries, which were stated to have enough energy to take out the Sovereign fleet), At most Moon level within his moon

Key: Avatar Ego | Planet Ego
 
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