DBZ speeds

The_Living_Tribunal1 · May 22, 2016

Well, as we all know several current dbz speeds are largely scaled from piccolo's moon feat which has a timing based on 17.84 seconds

Butthe recalc of the moon feat has resulted in a low end time frame assumption of 60 seconds and not 17.84 seconds. And we are using this calc for ranking saiyan saga attack potency

this puts the 17 second time frame claim in doubt especially considering SDZ himself has expressed uncertainity about the 17 second time frame.

And so instead of this moon feat he will be looking for some other feat in order to get speeds for dbz characters.

Meanwhile for now i have 2 suggestions from my behalf: to fall back to the 4 second time period or to simply list the speeds as unknown for the time being untill another quantifiable feat is used to judge speeds (whichh SDZ is looking for and hopefully he will find one eventually).

So what do you think we should do about this, vs battles memebers?

Strmi · May 22, 2016

Back to 4 second

The_Living_Tribunal1 · May 22, 2016

ok

anyone else wants to say something?

Jeune_fou · May 22, 2016

Strmi said:
Back to 4 second

I 100% agree on that!

The_real_cal_howard · May 22, 2016

I'm confused. What's the four second timeframe? Is it for the same feat?

Jeune_fou · May 22, 2016

The real cal howard said:
I'm confused. What's the four second timeframe? Is it for the same feat?

Yup: it's based on the anime scene (I advanced frame per frame and it appears the feat was done in 4.03 seconds in the anime).

The_real_cal_howard · May 22, 2016

K. Thanks.

Aimenaltair · May 22, 2016

I agree with the 4 second one

The_Living_Tribunal1 · May 22, 2016

i hope an admin sees this and highlights it

this needs major attention

The_Living_Tribunal1 · May 22, 2016

since eveyone has sais 4 seconds so far

i wud simply pick the other side and say unknown speed

since cinematic timing isnt always accepted

The_Everlasting · May 22, 2016

I may be missing something.

But why not just use the 60 second timeframe instead?

We did that with Saitama's moon jump IIRC.

The_Living_Tribunal1 · May 22, 2016

The Everlasting said:
I may be missing something.
But why not just use the 60 second timeframe instead?

We did that with Saitama's moon jump IIRC.

cause there is no proof for it

in the manga, the calculated frame was 17.84 seconds and in theanime it was 4 seconds

i dont know about saitama's case

cut if u want to put forth a 60s thing then u can

i will consult SDZ about it as well if it becomes a relevant option (this last thing has no relevance to the whole thing, thats just me asking SDZ about his opinion on it since he is largely responsible for current speeds here)

Canis_Latrans2 · May 22, 2016

Agree with the 4.03 second timeframe

Alexcar3000 · May 22, 2016

I have to go with the 17.84 seconds timeframe, as we don't scale things from the anime anymore. Just from the manga + DBS.

Gwynbleiddd · May 22, 2016

I remember being asked about this feat ,i couldn't find anything that would give a 17.84 sec timeframe ,and one should be really careful with assumed timeframes.

Antvasima · May 22, 2016

Here are our current rules for Cinematic Time.

KyofuSama93 · May 22, 2016

"So, total distance traveled is 1,737.4 kilometers"

So, is this calc saying that the distance between the Earth and the Moon is just that?

Kavpeny · May 22, 2016

The premise of this thread itself is suspect.

The author of the calc provides absolutely no proof for the time-frame utilized in his calc. In fact, his calc's time-frame is based on pure, unadulterated assumption.

To paraphrase the author of the calc:

So, here's my version of it I've affectionately named Piccolo's Moon Bust - Thumb Up His Ass Edition

Why do I call it that? because the timeframe for it I'm using will range from 1 minute to 5 minutes.

EM, going to politely point out to you before you note this is an assumed timeframe that you've not only conceded to a rough calc (which this itself is extremely rough and essentially requires Piccolo to sit there like a ******* moron as a Oozaru Gohan rampages for 1 to 5 minutes)

I'm surprised no one caught on to such a simple, yet illogical self-admitted presumption, especially a former calc group member like yourself, TLT1.

SDZ's currently accepted time-frame of 17 seconds is far more valid, and until disproved via an actual fallacy, and not conveniently cherry-picking whatever seems best suited to further boost the verse, I see no reason whatsoever to "boost" DBZ speeds.

Additionally, if I remember accurately, SDZ's 17 second time-frame was based off the manga, whereas the 4 seconds time-frame was based off the anime. Since the 17 second time-frame is not invalidated in any form by the assumed time-frame in the OP calc link, the 17 second time-frame will be accepted in lieu of the 4 second time-frame, in accordance with the Cinematic Time guidelines (rule #1: "If differing time values can be obtained via the static (non audio-visual) source material, the source material time-frame will be given preference.").

SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 · May 22, 2016

Well I'll just give my opinion here real quick before I need to go offline...

The 17.84 seconds timeframe is from some rocks falling which got blasted up in the air when Piccolo fired his beam... I was a little iffy with that number and so were a few other people IIRC...

When I saw that a different calc was being used for the moon bust calc it put me on the edge a little and for some reason I can't seem to view the old calc...

This is the main reason I talk with TLT1 for making this thread...

I don't agree with using cinematic time though... And I doubt I ever will...

Kavpeny · May 22, 2016

@SDZ: Even if you're iffy, the procedure was mathematically sound, correct? The final figure is slightly shaky, but it is far more valid than the blatant presumption seen in the calc presented by TLT1 in the OP.

P.S.: It's good to see you again at VS Battles.

SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 · May 22, 2016

For the first part yes. And between using that and using cinematic time I'd definitely choose the former.

But if we still use the 17.84 seconds value then what of Chaos' calc which is currently being used...

Antvasima · May 22, 2016

I agree with Lord Kavpeny.

Antvasima · May 22, 2016

Also, welcome back SDZ.

Kavpeny · May 22, 2016

@SDZ: Thank you for the clarification.

As for Chaos' calc...hmm, could you elaborate further? I am hazy in regards to the calc, and its significance. Hmmm...actually, is the calc related to the thread in any form? If not, it would be better if we continued the relevance of it on my message wall instead (may be tomorrow, since you're apparently about to go to sleep?).

SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 · May 22, 2016

Antvasima said:
Also, welcome back SDZ.

Not officially back yet but thanks...

SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 · May 22, 2016

Lord Kavpeny said:
@SDZ: Thank you for the clarification.

As for Chaos' calc...hmm, could you elaborate further? I am hazy in regards to the calc, and its significance. Hmmm...actually, is the calc related to the thread in any form? If not, it would be better if we continued the relevance of it on my message wall instead (may be tomorrow, since you're apparently about to go to sleep?).

Chaos' calc uses an assumed timeframe different from the one I use and it is currently accepted...

Both the initial obd calc which had the 17.84 timeframe and Chaos' calc are for the same feat but they produce different results and only one can be accepted right. So if Chaos' calc is accepted shouldn't the other calc which uses the 17.84 timeframe alongside my own be disregarded...

Jeune_fou · May 22, 2016

I'd say the 4.03 seconds makes a lot more sense than the 60 seconds (low end time) anyway. I mean Piccolo wouldn't stay immobile during 60 seconds while great ape Gohan is ravaging the zone!

And besides. In the manga it's extremely short: 3 pannels are enough for Piccolo to perform that moon busting feat. http://cdn.mangaeden.com/mangasimg/d8/d8cb457e3927399eb322e1abf8c6b378373c413355738aa7ec400dae.jpg

So honnestly the 4.03 seconds sounds a lot more accurate than the 60 seconds one.

Jeune_fou · May 22, 2016

Also even the 17,84 seconds one sound a bit long. I mean honnestly. Count around 17 - 18 seconds in your head doing absolutely nothing else ... it's long ... especially when you have a great ape that's destroying everything just near you. The 4 seconds one soundq appropriated and based on what we can see in the manga (in fact 2 pannels were needed because in the first one Piccolo just notices the full moon. He actually used his ki attack only on the 2nd pannel).

Kavpeny · May 22, 2016

@Jeune: Do you have anything more convincing than "sounds more accurate", "I'd say", a.k.a. anything which is not limited by your personal, subjective interpretation?

Jeune_fou · May 22, 2016

I don't have solid arguments indeed. But honnestly, don't you think that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSJ-Z1BXMQc

Is a correct anime version of that: http://cdn.mangaeden.com/mangasimg/d8/d8cb457e3927399eb322e1abf8c6b378373c413355738aa7ec400dae.jpg

In the manga the scenes appears to be extremely short: 2 pannels! Yes no precise duration, but considering how close the manga and the anime scenes are it would make sense to use the anime duration.

Let's be honest: it's THE exact same scene (I know I repeat myself but that was extremely short in both the manga and the anime).

Kavpeny · May 22, 2016

Adaptations are rarely as linear as you would want them to be. In any case, we have guidelines regarding cinematic time, and your simplistic, and likely inaccurate presumption is in violation of them.

Apologies, but I'm not convinced in the least by arguments which involve clauses such as "don't you think ...".

Jeune_fou · May 22, 2016

Lord Kavpeny said:
Adaptations are rarely as linear as you would want them to be. In any case, we have guidelines regarding cinematic time, and your simplistic, and likely inaccurate presumption is in violation of them.
Apologies, but I'm not convinced in the least by arguments which involve clauses such as "don't you think ...".

I wouldn't say "simplistic", I tried to use "non scientific" common sense (by saying the two scenes were similar and the one from the manga was made to be very short in the first place), because there's no way to calculate a precise duration based only on that: http://cdn.mangaeden.com/mangasimg/d8/d8cb457e3927399eb322e1abf8c6b378373c413355738aa7ec400dae.jpg

Anyway you can't deny the original scene from the manga was made to be extremely short.

If someone knows a way to calculate the duration here's the rest of the chapter: http://mangayou.com/mangaeden-en/dragon-ball-6/966467

The_Living_Tribunal1 · May 23, 2016

ok so if we keep the 17 second thing

then shud we re-do choas's calc of moon busting with a 17.84 second time frame then? cause thatt will give mid training piccolo planet level AP

Jeune_fou · May 23, 2016

The Living Tribunal1 said:
ok so if we keep the 17 second thing
then shud we re-do choas's calc of moon busting with a 17.84 second time frame then? cause thatt will give mid training piccolo planet level AP

Until we have something better it sounds like a good idea. I'll always wonder how he pulled out 17.84 seconds from just the manga.

Jeune_fou · May 23, 2016

I just read rules about cinematic (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Cinematic_Time).

My english is far to be perfect (so excuse me if what I say is false). But here are main points:

- the manga is prefered over cinematic if a precise duration is provided by the author or something else in the story (such as time-measuring device for example) gives us a precise time frame, or if there's a calc.

Now here's the problem: should we consider the 17.84 calc accurate or not? Because I don't know how someone can pull-out a precise time frame with just that: http://cdn.mangaeden.com/mangasimg/d8/d8cb457e3927399eb322e1abf8c6b378373c413355738aa7ec400dae.jpg

Rule 3 also says if there's no statement from the author, no time-measuring device or no calc (so basically if the 17.84 seconds calc is not correct for example), then we should use the cinematic (however it should be fully showed on-screen. No cut basically).

So if the calc is not accurate we can use the cinematic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSJ-Z1BXMQc since it's not cutted.

Rules 4 and 5 are talking about cut in cinematic, sped-up events in cinematic or slowed down events in cinematic.

Now let's compare the manga with the cinematic scene:

- http://cdn.mangaeden.com/mangasimg/d8/d8cb457e3927399eb322e1abf8c6b378373c413355738aa7ec400dae.jpg

- Rest of the chapter: http://mangayou.com/mangaeden-en/dragon-ball-6/966467

- Cinematic scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSJ-Z1BXMQc

No cut, no sped-up events, no slowed-down events.

Rule 6 doesn't concern our "case".

Rule 7 doesn't concern our case because it was made for scenes with a longer duration (such as a travel from a point A to a point B that would take several minutes on-screen). In other words: scenes that have high chances to have a time difference between the manga and the cinematic.

Rule 8 doesn't concern our case since it talks about "cuts".

So, I was instinctly right to compare the cinematic and the manga. Honnestly there's no difference between that: http://cdn.mangaeden.com/mangasimg/d8/d8cb457e3927399eb322e1abf8c6b378373c413355738aa7ec400dae.jpg

And that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSJ-Z1BXMQc

the cinematic is a perfect representation of the manga. The scene in the manga is made to be extremely short (2 - 3 pannels), which shows the moon busting feat was a matter of seconds in the original manga (the anime then followed the same logic and depicted it accurately).

It is true there were sometimes big differences between the anime and the manga such as the famous galaxy busting scene buu did (that was anime-only). But here there's no need discuss, both scenes (manga and anime) are obviously exactly the same!

So unless we're 100% certain the 17.84 seconds calc is correct, we should use the 4.03 seconds from the anime.

The_Living_Tribunal1 · May 23, 2016

soooo whats the final decision is it 4 seconds or unknown speeds, or do we use 17 seconds to recalculate piccolo's AP (also applies to 4 seconds) or something else?

Antvasima · May 23, 2016

It is up to Lord Kavpeny to decide. He generally handles Dragon Ball matters.

Jeune_fou · May 23, 2016

The Living Tribunal1 said:
soooo whats the final decision is it 4 seconds or unknown speeds, or do we use 17 seconds to recalculate piccolo's AP (also applies to 4 seconds) or something else?

We either use 17 seconds (but if I remember the calc was based on another earth-moon (instead of the real one) distance first which makes the obtained time frame questionnable) or 4 seconds.

We shouldn't consider this feat "unknown speed" because even if the 17 seconds calc is not correct there's still the cinematic scene. And according to rules, we can use that cinematic (only if the calc is not correct though).

SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 · May 23, 2016

Found the old calc we used for piccolo's moon bust (Credit goes to KuuIchigo for finding this). Only thing that needs to be done is making some changes on the profiles using this calc...

We should wait for Lord Kavpeny's reply on this before doing anything though...

Also just wanna put this out here. Currently I have no interest in explaining why the timeframe from the manga should be used nor do I wish to have a debate for using cinematic time so I'll let everyone else handle that...

AllanSaiyan · May 23, 2016

Well i remember you saying to me and a few others in the chat a long time ago not sure if you remember me since i changed my name, that the speed from using the 4 seconds timeframe would be considered as an outlier because they never shown speed like this in the other arc and wouldn't using the 4 seconds method make there speeds Relativistic+ in the Saiyan Saga if so then i also disagree with using that method. The manga timeframe seems like the best option we have now and it will also cause less problem imho.

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