- 9,755
- 4,392
And it's about damn time.
This doesn't need an introduction, and frankly, after having had to wrestle with this on and off for over a year now, I'm in no mood to deliver one. So sit down, shut up and pay attention, because there's a lot that needs to be covered.
BEFORE WE GET STARTED
Pennywise & Maturi
Let's start with something some of us already know; Pennywise's avatar is due for an AP upgrade. A calc was accepted which puts the avatar at (at the very least) Large Mountain level+. It can be seen here.
Does this scale to durability? Well, yes and no. See, the issue with Pennywise's avatar in the novel is that it must obey the rules of whatever shape and form it has chosen to take at any given point. For example, in its werewolf form, a typical handgun was able to visibly damage it, although it immediately regenerated from said damage.
However, in its avatar's "truest" form (that being the physical form that's closest in nature to its real self within the Deadlights), it doesn't take damage from anything that its other forms do. The children are only able to harm and kill it after defeating its true form in an astral battle, and did so while amped by the Other. (read: Gan) Outside of being torn apart by characters who were amplified by the power of the verse's God, nothing is shown to stop this form of the avatar at any point.
As for Pennywise's true form, I believe that's where Maturin comes in. In order to save everyone time, I've left the quotes relevant to this section in a Pastebin entry.
Pennywise & Maturi
Summing this up:
Speaking of "void", it's time we talked about the Macroverse, because it's very, very important here. Another relevant Pastebin entry can be found below.
The Macroverse
As a summary of what's mentioned in the above:
Gan, the Dark Tower and the Story Itself
This is where things get complicated. I've explained everything as best I can in yet another Pastebin entry below, although I'm sure there'll be questions that arise in spite of that:
Gan, the Dark Tower and the Story Itself
To summarize this one:
Oh, don't act like you don't know what's coming. It should be pretty obvious by now.
Discuss below.
This doesn't need an introduction, and frankly, after having had to wrestle with this on and off for over a year now, I'm in no mood to deliver one. So sit down, shut up and pay attention, because there's a lot that needs to be covered.
BEFORE WE GET STARTED
- As was agreed upon between myself and some others who've been helping me during the last leg of this trainwreck, all information that comes from the Dark Tower comics is henceforth to be excluded from the profiles. Not only does the comics' author Robin Furth view them as a separate canon from the series, but her statement of them "taking place on another level of the Tower" (if taken at face value instead of the non-serious handwave that it is) severely contradicts the novels, which establish that Mid-World is only on one level of the Tower and that the Tower itself isn't accessible outside of that level. (I believe there's even a direct quote from one of the books which states that there's only one Mid-World and one Keystone World, but I've yet to locate it as of this writing.)
- This first thread will be covering Gan, Pennywise, Maturin and the Dark Tower itself. Later threads will deal with the Crimson King (who comes with his own set of problems), the non-deities such as Roland and Flagg (who are going to be going through major changes as well), and the Old Ones, among others. Don't derail with anything unrelated to the characters who are the focus of this thread, or this is going to go nowhere.
- Some credit goes to Aeyu (who helped gather several quotes towards the final leg of this thing), as well as Ultima, Matt and Azathoth, who helped oversee this mess. Some credit also goes to Crimson Azoth for...well, you'll see in a moment.
Pennywise & Maturi
Let's start with something some of us already know; Pennywise's avatar is due for an AP upgrade. A calc was accepted which puts the avatar at (at the very least) Large Mountain level+. It can be seen here.
Does this scale to durability? Well, yes and no. See, the issue with Pennywise's avatar in the novel is that it must obey the rules of whatever shape and form it has chosen to take at any given point. For example, in its werewolf form, a typical handgun was able to visibly damage it, although it immediately regenerated from said damage.
However, in its avatar's "truest" form (that being the physical form that's closest in nature to its real self within the Deadlights), it doesn't take damage from anything that its other forms do. The children are only able to harm and kill it after defeating its true form in an astral battle, and did so while amped by the Other. (read: Gan) Outside of being torn apart by characters who were amplified by the power of the verse's God, nothing is shown to stop this form of the avatar at any point.
As for Pennywise's true form, I believe that's where Maturin comes in. In order to save everyone time, I've left the quotes relevant to this section in a Pastebin entry.
Pennywise & Maturi
Summing this up:
- Maturin is stated at multiple points to hold all of Gan's creation on his shell, with several bits of lore supporting such.
- Pennywise's true form exists beyond the void in which Maturin lives and views the "universe" (which could either be referring to all of Gan's creation or just the mainstream SK universe where Derry is located) as nothing but a "puny egg". However, Maturin is still the more powerful of the two.
Speaking of "void", it's time we talked about the Macroverse, because it's very, very important here. Another relevant Pastebin entry can be found below.
The Macroverse
As a summary of what's mentioned in the above:
- The Macroverse is a void which exists outside of the multiverse of the Tower, being described as a "void of possibility which lay beyond all physical worlds".
- Richie perceives no directions when traveling in the Macroverse.
- The Macroverse predates the recession of the Prim and the creation of the Tower, and also predates time as a concept.
Gan, the Dark Tower and the Story Itself
This is where things get complicated. I've explained everything as best I can in yet another Pastebin entry below, although I'm sure there'll be questions that arise in spite of that:
Gan, the Dark Tower and the Story Itself
To summarize this one:
- The Dark Tower, as we know, is comprised of infinite layers, each of which contain infinite universes that are infinitely larger than those found on the layer below. Its many representative forms across the multiverse (such as the Talisman) embody the entirety of this existence on a physical level, yet the both the Tower and its physical representatives are merely an aspect of Gan.
- Gan exists as a power beyond all others, and is the supreme creator of all that is. His existence is beyond the scope of even the most ancient and powerful beings in the setting, to the point that Pennywise in its true form is implied to be "no more than the smallest mote in (Gan's) mind". This is further evidenced by the fact that the latter is unable to comprehend or rationalize the existence of the former for longer than a few brief moments.
- Gan's nature as the source of all stories within the setting, as well as the fact that Stephen King's entire bibliography exists within the Tower and dictates the reality of the setting, means that Gan himself views everything within the series-- up to and including every in-series being, item and location I've mentioned within this CRT-- as being nothing but fiction.
Oh, don't act like you don't know what's coming. It should be pretty obvious by now.
- The Dark Tower (Gan's first key): High Hyperverse level (The multiverse which comprises the Dark Tower is comprised of infinite layers or "steps", each of which contains an infinite number of universes which are themselves infinitely larger than those found on the step below. It has been stated that an entire universe in one step can be contained within a single atom of a blade of grass in the step above, with this same step having an infinite multiverse which is itself contained within a grain of sand in the next step, and so on.) [This isn't a revision so much as an improvement on the reasoning for why this thing is High 1-B.]
- Maturin: Outerverse level (Exists outside of the Dark Tower in a void which lacks physicality/direction, and predates both the concept of time and the multiverse's existence as a whole. Carries the entire multiversal structure of the Dark Tower upon his back, and is confirmed to have existed prior to its creation. Explicitly more powerful than the likes of Pennywise.)
- Pennywise (second key): Outerverse level (Exists outside of the Dark Tower in a void beyond that which Maturin resides in; Maturin himself exists in a void which lacks physicality/direction, and predates both the concept of time and the multiverse's existence as a whole.)
- Gan (second key): High Outerverse level (Exists as "the author of all that is" and the source of all songs and fictional stories within the Dark Tower setting. Beings such as Pennywise, Maturin and the other Beam Guardians/Demon Elementals, and the undimensioned voids in which they reside, exist only as fictional creations within the songs and stories of which he himself is the progenitor. Even the weakest of such beings vastly transcends an infinitely-layered multiverse, predates the concept of time, and has existed since before the aforementioned multiverse was created.)
Discuss below.
