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The Legend of Zelda: Major Revision - Part I

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ParadoxIndifferent

ParadoxIndifferent

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Introductio

Hello to everyone passing by to check out this thread. Some of you may recognize me or not; this is irrelevant to the current subject at hand. I feel compelled to make this thread as I feel our current tiers for this franchise leave a lot to be desired, to say the least, and I hope to be able to once more convince an upgrade of yet another major franchise whose upgrades were denied multiple times.

Currently, the God-Tiers of Zelda (excluding the Goddesses) are High 4-C. The reasoning varies from the Trifoce corrupting the Dark World, which is considered an earth-to-sun size, Skull Kid with Majora's powers creating a space that contained a sun, and one other feat that I don't recall right now. While I digress with some of those, that's not what I will focus on in the first part of this thread. Rather, I will be focusing on another feat separate from those three that I believe to higher.

The Feat
So, Majora's Mask. Some of the potentially upgrade-worthy things in this game have already been extensively discussed; for one, the possibility of Termina having been created by the Skull Kid has been discussed and deemed unreliable multiple times already. However, that is not the feat I will propose. Rather, the feat I will be proposing in the game is separate than him creating Termina itself.

During Majora's Mask, it is established multiple times that the Skull Kid's reality warping powers and corruption abilities were affecting the world of Termina, including the celestial bodies. However, the official guidebook for Majora's Mask, which received a Nintendo Seal of Reliability, states the following in a section talking about the Deku Temple's water:

This statement clarifies that the Skull Kid's distortions were universal in scale, corrupting the entirety of the universe of Termina. This could be potentially a little insufficient on its own, indeed, but there is a similar quote that further supports it in the lore entry in the prologue for the same guide:

This section clarifies that the accursed powers he possesses are distorting more than just the moon - they are distorting the heavens, space, and time (the latter to an unknown extent) as well. As I hope everyone here realizes, the expression "heavens" in literary-mythological context is synonymous to "cosmos", as it is supposed to express the portion of the universe that is outside the Earth.


Conclusion
My final proposal here is the following:

The Skull Kid with Majora should receive either a "Likely 3-A" or a straight up 3-A upgrade. This rating scales to the following characters.

  • Ganon with Triforce
  • The Triforce
  • Link with TF
And Majora's profile should say

Universe level (Was corrupting and reality warping the entirety of the universe of Termina)

Majora has no anti-feats in the game, neither does the Triforce or any of the characters it fully-empowers. Link only scales with specific boosts, and his average key wouldn't scale, so no contradiction there as well to suggest this is an outlier.

Peace.
 
ParadoxIndifferent said:
I am not here to discuss Skull Kid creating Termina, so those threads are completely irrelevant at best.
Click to expand...
No, they aren't - you didn't read them carefully.

They used the exact same quotes that you did and even more - and were rejected.

The links on the thread link to the exact same images as yours does - however, the links on those threads appear to have died.


But regardless, no new information is being brought up - and this was already rejected.
 
I was fine with the upgrade before, but we have already discussed this before. I will follow this thread, I am still fine with 3-A Zelda. Although I prefer 'possibly' rather then likely or straight 3-A.
 
J O H N C E N A

It's the same guy who did the DMC Upgrades, but that's ultimately irrelevant entirely.

We're here to discuss Zelda, and I'll say 3-A doesn't seem that unreasonable, but I want to wait for opponents to give input
 
ParadoxIndifferent said:
DMUA is correct.
Click to expand...
And like DMUA said, it is irrelvant.

Dude, these arguments you are bring up were brought up in the last thread as well as more arguments - and all of them were debunked.

There is literally nothing new here.
 
Given how it mentions that Majora had influence even on time and space, perhaps 3-A, possibly Low 2-C could be a potential rating as well if this gets accepted?
 
Following, seems good to me, but I'm not sure, I'm gonna wait for the rebuttal to this feat, until them, I'm leaning to agree than disagree, the 'space and time' part could theoretically bring up low 2-C (I think), but ehhhhhh
 
I have seen plenty of verses get upgraded with "nothing new" compared to the last time their respective upgrades were brought up, just a change of tone and focus.

To put this lightly, I don't really care about whether my scans were brought up. All of those threads you linked were focusing solely on Skull Kid creating Termina, not him being capable of warping it. If you have no effective arguments to use against this, I don't want to waste much time.
 
I agree with Paradox. Persona 5 was actually this way sort of. We discussed a merger of universes in that verse and at first it was denied. But then it was accepted after a second thread. I would appreciate it if we stopped using 'but it was discussed before!' . Past threads dont act as an arbiter of truth.
 
ParadoxIndifferent said:
I have seen plenty of verses get upgraded with "nothing new" compared to the last time their respective upgrades were brought up, just a change of tone and focus.
To put this lightly, I don't really care about whether my scans were brought up. All of those threads you linked were focusing solely on Skull Kid creating Termia, not him being capable of warping it. If you have no effective arguments to use against this, I don't want to waste much time.
Click to expand...
No it wasn't.

The entirety of both threads were made on the basis that Majora warped Termina, not created it - nothing anywhere states that. Even the HE states that Majora wapred Termina - not created it.

The second thread was based on the statements from HE and their legitimacy.

However, the entirety of the first thread was pushed with the focus on these quotes:



All of my "effective arguments" are within the first thread where I quoted theses quotes nearly a hundred times and eventually all of this evidence that was already brought up was rejected.


So please actually read the threads before making inaccurate statements.

And since there are no new feats being brought up, and the fact that you aren't applying a "change in focus and tone" as you state, that just means that you are the one that is wasting time here.
 
SinsofMan said:
I agree with Paradox.
Persona 5 was actually this way sort of. We discussed a merger of universes in that verse and at first it was denied. But then it was accepted after a second thread. I would appreciate it if we stopped using 'but it was discussed before!' . Past threads dont act as an arbiter of truth.
Click to expand...
They do when nothing has changed in the slightest.
 
> The entirety of both threads were made on the basis that Majora warped Termina, not created it - nothing anywhere states that. Even the HE states that Majora wapred Termina - not created it.

Maybe you need to take a look at the exact same thread you're asking to be reviewed, since this is blatantly false:

-"but finally the third book in Dark Horse's Zelda series Hyrule Encyclopedia revealed the solution to the puzzle that is Termina's existence in the world of The Legend of Zelda. The answer it reveals is that Termina is merely a fabrication, created by the power of Majora's Mask when worn by the Skull Kid, and the world ceases to exist once Link departs at the end of the game."

> All of my "effective arguments" are within the first thread where I quoted theses quotes nearly a hundred times and eventually all of this evidence that was already brought up was rejected.

Can you quote anything that isn't "if the quote is literal that means Majora warped the Golden Goddesses' universe" or "Hyrule Encyclopedia is non-canon" from that thread? Nothing that I am seeing would apply to this.

If you link to a random thread and people say they aren't seeing the relevant counter-arguments, it is your duty to highlight them.
 
ParadoxIndifferent said:
> The entirety of both threads were made on the basis that Majora warped Termina, not created it - nothing anywhere states that. Even the HE states that Majora wapred Termina - not created it.Maybe you need to take a look at the exact same thread you're asking to be reviewed, since this is blatantly false:
> All of my "effective arguments" are within the first thread where I quoted theses quotes nearly a hundred times and eventually all of this evidence that was already brought up was rejected.

Can you quote anything that isn't "if the quote is literal that means Majora warped the Golden Goddesses' universe" or "Hyrule Encyclopedia is non-canon" from that thread? Nothing that I am seeing would apply to this.

If you link to a random thread and people say they aren't seeing the relevant counter-arguments, it is your duty to highlight them.
Click to expand...
Dude, this is the page.

It says, and I quote:

"...the combination of the Skull Kid's burdened heart and the evil magic within Majora's Mask transforms the world into the land of Termina. Termina is a parallel world with its own distinct culture, which is perhaps influenced by Majora's ancient tribe."

"The four giants were spirit friends of the Skill Kid who, much like Termina itself, were created in a new form by the power of Majora's Mask."


The HE states that the Termina we know was actually a transformed Termina created by Majora's Mask.

Meaning he warped the universe, not created it.

So no, I am not being "blatantly false".


And my entire argument against this quote:

...was that it was metaphorical in its wording.

And that taking it literally is a mistake and a stretch.

 
Except the Hyrule Encyclopedia implies that the people on Termina and their lives were mere creations of the Skull Kid, while the official manual with Nintendo's reliability seal states that he made people's already-existing lives worse by obtaining the power of Majora and warping the universe, so your interpretation of this part of my argument is still false, indeed.

Your argument against the quote that states his powers influence the heavens and etc. is a byproduct of a superimposition of your own point of view into the quote's meaning. Going by your interpretation:

  • "The mischief spread by the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask and the influence his cursed guise has on the moon, the heavens, space and time"
Is supposed to be read as:

  • "The mischief spread by the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask and the influence his cursed guise has on the lives of the planet's inhabitants."
...except that we objectively see what they mean by "influencing the moon" in-game, and it has positively nothing to do with what you proposed. It literally means just that: that the moon is being warped - brought closer to the Earth, to the point where its core is distorted and expanded into being capable of fitting an Earth-to-Sun dimension. So, taking both the game's context and Occam's Razor, why would the rest of the statement not have the same context, that his powers warp space, the heavens, and (to-an-extent) time? Not just because the quote states just that and basic rules of debating would imply that we shouldn't rewrite what is stated for no reason, but because the game's context establishes it should be taken at face-value.

This is a personal interpretation of the quote with no in-game context backing it up, to an interpretation that actually takes the quote at face value, doesn't require rewriting it, and is supported by the game.
 
The people of Termina that we see in the game are creations of Majora because the original world of Termina was changed completely by Majora using the Skull Kid's memories.

The page literally says that Majora transformed the world.

This isn't an interapation, but a statement of facts. It's right on the page.


And I ******* refuse to comment on this quote again. I will not waste anymore time of my life on it. I did that nearly a hundred times in the previous threads. I'm tired of writing dozens of full body paragraphs in a completly circular arguments.

Everything you have said, was already stated on the other thread.
 
CursedGentleman said:
please try to not quote walls of text, it gets highly counter intuitive to read all of the stuff and it gets cluttered
Click to expand...
I erased the blob of text, but for some reason it showed up again - I fixed it I believe.
 
Is it ever stated in-game that the inhabitants of Termina were created by Majora? I don't recall this.

I agree that he transformed the world, but under a different context compared to the questionable-HE, as I don't believe the people of Termina were created by him and I don't recall the game stating it at any point.

Not sure if that's a concession or not. Is it?
 
oof

So, continuing, Paradox, did you get Cal, DDM or any of the other Knowledgeable members? (I only stated these two because those are the only ones I know lmao)
 
ParadoxIndifferent said:
Is it ever stated in-game that the inhabitants of Termina were created by Majora? I don't recall this.
I agree that he transformed the world, but under a different context compared to the questionable-HE, as I don't believe the people of Termina were created by him and I don't recall the game stating it at any point.

Not sure if that's a concession or not. Is it?
Click to expand...
The whole "Majora warped Termina" doesn't come from the game, nor its remake. It comes specifically from guides.

That's why there was a massive fan up-roar when the HE came out.


No it isn't a concession.

It's just those threads were so mentally draining for me that I got really sick and I refuse to put myself through a similar situation again.
 
> The whole "Majora warped Termina" doesn't come from the game, nor its remake. It comes specifically from guides.

Indeed, it is never specifically stated in-game that Majora reality warped the whole universe of Termina, but him reality warping it on a more-than-planetary scale was directly shown, so it is inaccurate to say that him warping a not-insignificant portion of Termina can't be discerned from the game.

So your intent with that statement was to reinforce that Hyrule Encyclopedia stated the people of Termina were creations of Skull Kid? ...Which is quite literally my exact point in the post that you replied to? That the context is different than what I'm arguing?

Okay then.
 
ParadoxIndifferent said:
> The whole "Majora warped Termina" doesn't come from the game, nor its remake. It comes specifically from guides.Indeed, it is never specifically stated in-game that Majora reality warped the whole universe of Termina, but him reality warping it on a more-than-planetary scale was directly shown, so it is inaccurate to say that him warping a not-insignificant portion of Termina can't be discerned from the game.
So your intent with that statement was to reinforce that Hyrule Encyclopedia stated the people of Termina were creations of Skull Kid? ...Which is quite literally my exact point in the post that you replied to? That the context is different than what I'm arguing?

Okay then.
Click to expand...
We only see Majora reality-warp a country in the game. The four different sections of Termina with their four different inflictions.

AFAIK, the moon is a creation of Majora - and not one of him pulling down an already existing moon - that's why the moon has a pocket dimension inside of it and disappears completely when Majora dies, not to mention the creepy face.

So we don't see Majora reality warp on a more-than-planetary scale.


The intent of my linking of the HE page was to counter your point saying that you are taking this thread with "a change of tone and focus." As I made the statement that the last threads had the same focus and the belif that "Majora created Termina from scratch" was not used in the last thread because it does not exist in any guide, said guides stating that Majora "transformed" it instead.

You responeded saying that my statement is blatantly false and I corrected you by linking the page in the guide book that proves my statement correct.
 
CursedGentleman said:
because there's a part II in this
Click to expand...
I mean is the Part 2 on a different topic, or is it a preemptive measure on the length of this thread?

If it is on something different, I would like to know what said info on a thread is.
 
Warren Valion said:
We only see Majora reality-warp a country in the game. The four different sections of Termina with their four different inflictions.

AFAIK, the moon is a creation of Majora - and not one of him pulling down an already existing moon - that's why the moon has a pocket dimension inside of it and disappears completely when Majora dies, not to mention the creepy face.

So we don't see Majora reality warp on a more-than-planetary scale.
Click to expand...
Don't see=/=It doesn't happen. If we have statements that Majora warped more than the 4 regions, we assume it actually did.

Not really actually. Otherwise everyone would be freaked out by the fact that a new moon appeared with a face, whereas people often say stuff like "the moon, it has something strange today... is it a bit closer than yesterday?". The fact that the moon tear is a renowned jewel also implies the moon had a face long before Skull Kid had MM. I'm currently replaying MM so I remember this very well.
 
> We only see Majora reality-warp a country in the game. The four different sections of Termina with their four different inflictions.

And also a moon that somehow is distorted into fitting a realm with a sun within.

> AFAIK, the moon is a creation of Majora - and not one of him pulling down an already existing moon - that's why the moon has a pocket dimension inside of it and disappears completely when Majora dies, not to mention the creepy face.

This is untrue, as it is mentioned in the guide that Majora merely began pulling the already-existing moon down.

> So we don't see Majora reality warp on a more-than-planetary scale.

We see him warp on, at minimum, a stellar scale. Assuming universal based on multiple statements from a canon source saying it is universal in scale is far from unreasonable.

> The intent of my linking of the HE page was to counter your point saying that you are taking this thread with "a change of tone and focus." As I made the statement that the last threads had the same focus and the belif that "Majora created Termina from scratch" was not used in the last thread because it does not exist in any guide, said guides stating that Majora "transformed" it instead.

Hyrule Encyclopedia states he recreated Termina and its people, official Nintendo Power manual states he merely warped Termina itself and made people's lives worse. It is definitely different, as the former contradicts the game and the latter doesn't
 
It's also worth noting that the manual also calls the dimension that Majora creates inside the moon an "alternate reality" and world at one point.
 
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