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Zelda: Adding Abilities

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TriforcePower1

TriforcePower1

8,377
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I can't let them get to 3-A with so little hax

The Triforce

  • Fate Manipulation (ÔØî)
This got brought up more than once but never concluded, so let's do that now.

ÞºªÒéîÒüƒÒéïÞÇàÒü« ÒüäÒüïÒü¬Òéïµ£øÒü┐ÒéÆÒééÒüïÒü¬ÒüêÒéïÒâ╗Òâ╗Òâ╗ The one who touches it will have his any wish granted…

ÒüØÒüåþö│ÒüùÒüƒÒü¬ÒÇüÒé¼ÒâÄÒâ│ÒâëÒâ¡Òâò´╝ü Isn't that what you said, Ganondorf!

Òâê Òâ®ÒéñÒâòÒé®Òâ╝Òé╣Òü«þÑ×ÒÇàÒéê µêæÒü»µ£øÒéÇ´╝ü Gods of the Triforce, this is my wish!

µ£¬µØÑÒéÆ´╝ü ÒüôÒü«Õ¡ÉÒéëÒü½ÒÇüÕ©îµ£øÒüéÒéï µ£¬µØÑÒéÆÒüéÒüƒÒüêÒéê´╝ü A future! Give these children a future full of hope!

ÚüÄÕÄ╗Òü«Õ£░ÒâÅÒéñÒâ®Òâ½ÒéƵÂêÒüùÕÄ╗Òéè ÒüôÒü«Õ¡ÉÒéëÒü«µ£¬µØÑÒü½ÕàëµÿÄÒéÆ´╝ü´╝ü Erase Hyrule, the land of the past. Give these children a bright future!!

ÒüôÒéîÒüºÒÇüµêæÒéëÒü«Õøáþ©üÒééþÁéÒéÅÒéìÒüåÒâ╗Òâ╗Òâ╗ Òé¼ÒâÄÒâ│ÒâëÒâ¡ÒâòÒéêÒÇüÒâÅÒéñÒâ®Òâ½Òü¿Õà▒Òü½ µ▓êÒéÇÒüîÒéêÒüä´╝ü´╝ü´╝ü Now, let our destiny come to an end… Ganondorf, sink with Hyrule!!!

From here

This happens:

  • Hyrule starts flooding again and never resurfaces
  • Link defeats Ganon who turns to stone and "Sinks with Hyrule"
  • Link and Zelda/Tetra are forced back to the surface
  • Link and Tetra eventually discover a new continent and establish New Hyrule, which is their "bright future"
(Credits for DustCollector)

This is clearly clearly Fate Manipulation (The King is asking the Triforce to change the future of Link and Tetra).

There really isn't much to say here. The Triforce is constantly repeated and stated multiple times to be the "omnipotent relic that can grant all wishes", so it magically not working here or something doesn't make sense, especially given that everything happened exactly like the King said.

  • Cosmic Awareness (possible)
The Triforce is stated to be "Omniscient" in the ALTTP intro. Ganondorf also obtained Cosmic Awareness (look down) when he obtained the Triforce of Power.

Vaati

Vaati explodes with no visible traces and reappears some moments later. Really clear cut.

Ganondorf
()

Ganondorf can resist a lot of things from Link in his final battles. While generally final bosses being able to resist hax from the main character is considered game mechanics, it's not the case here, as it's a pretty big part of the lore that Ganondorf is basically immune to anything in the verse (within reasonable limits).

Namely, he can resist the effects of the Quake Medallion which can transmutate enemies for his 4-B key, as well as the abilities of the Mystery Seeds which can age monsters and Cuccos back to babies in High 6-B key and above.

He can also resist the Energy Beams of the Master Sword which have the same AP as the Master Sword which is able to harm him

  • Extrasensory Perception and Clairvoyance (Ô£à)
He discovered that Zelda is Sheik despite her being in the Temple of Time and Ganon in his castle.

Link
We currently consider Link resisting EE for resisting the Guardian's lasers which are made of the same energy of the Ancient Arrows that can EE enemies, but that's wrong as Guardian's Lasers are quite explicitly just Energy Beams that explode, also seen in several cutscenes.

Instead, Link should resist EE from a different (and much better) feat.()

https://youtu.be/yl8HWfOzcQ0 (I'll mainly be using just this video, putting time stamps near each point)

15:10; 17:42 Two of the Nightmares explicitly state that Link will be erased alongside the dream just for simply being inside it if the Wind Fish wakes up.

11:10; 12:10; 12:28 They are rather reliable about information, one of them even acknowledging that it had problems keeping his mouth shut, and have given Link hints that Koholint was just a dream, and later outright told him. The same nightmare that talks too much already implies about the fact that Link will be erased alongside the dream.

9:45 The Nightmares know that Link comes from OUTSIDE the dream, and as such that he wasn't created by the Wind Fish.

As we all know, though, Link comes out of the dream unscathed, and he isn't erased by the erasure of Koholint. This is a pretty good Resistance to Existence Erasure

  • Power Nullification
"The Moon Pearl

A jewel that can repel evil. It provides protection against the evil power of the Demon King Ganon, who controlled the Dark World, and it prevents the body from changing."

From here, a translation of Hyrule Historia

"You found the Moon Pearl! This protects The Hero from the changing effects of the Golden Power." (ALTTP description)

Basically, Moon Pearl isn't (only) resistance to Transmutation but it's outright Negation of what tries to harm Link.
 
I could swear he had it... oh well

In any case, it doesn't really change much. The off-screen rule applies to characters that reappear in later episodes/games/comics etc. whereas here he regenerates himself in the span of 10 minutes in the same game during the 2nd and the 3rd phase of a boss fight
 
TriforcePower1 said:
I could swear he had it... oh wellIn any case, it doesn't really change much. The off-screen rule applies to characters that reappear in later episodes/games/comics etc. whereas here he regenerates himself in the soan of 10 minutes in the same game during the 2nd and the 3rd phase of a boss fight
Click to expand...
This is wrong, sorry.
 
Eficiente said:
The Triforce
Click to expand...
He repeats that 3 times. That's 2 times more than his wish to erase Hyrule. It's also the first thing he says after asking the gods to hear his wish.
 
Neutral on the Fate Manipulation stuff, maybe it's poetic, maybe it's not I could go either way with that. Also neutral on the Ganon stuff, he's usually treated as unbeatable without holy weaponry which might justify it as not being game mechcanics but it still doesn't seem concrete enough and under the logic being used to give him this resistance could also be used to slap a bunch of resistances that he's never shown or stated to have.

Agree with the Link stuff, never understood why we treated the guardians as EE when it's clearly only an attribute of the Ancient Arrows so I agree with removing that as a justification and changing it to surviving the erasure of the Wind Fishes dream. Not sure if the while off screen rule would allow for this to be counted as a legit regen feat, although I personally think that due to the short timeframe between Vaati exploding and then coming back (It's like 2 minutes or something) it should be fine, but again I'm not sure if our current policy on this would allow it. Although to add onto the Vaati stuff there is something stated in the game about Vaati losing "his physical form" during the boss fight with him, I'll pull up the quote in a minute but it could lead to something.
 
This is wrong, sorry.

Can you please post the thread here? Because I'm quite sure the problem were those that regenerated offscreen between episodes and such.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
I can say that anywhere, I'm not saying for it to be changed cause I don't care enough about the topic.
Click to expand...
I recommend you have the time to understand and be able to criticize something before just openly insulting it.
 
I don't want to sound blunt, but I have a really hard time seeing this: "This is my wish: Give these children a future" as flowery language when that's exactly what he said his wish was...

There's also the fact that Japanese lacking plurals means that that "wish" can also be "wishes"
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Can you please post the thread here? Because I'm quite sure the problem were those that regenerated offscreen between episodes and such.
Click to expand...
It's the first thing I did but here it is agai. The matter is discussed there and in the other thread linked there.

Also like, I would not be calling it "off-screen regen" if it would only between episodes and such.
 
I remember the thought of Fate Manipulation being brought up before - I disagreed with it then and I do know.

It's pretty obvious that Hyrule in this context is the past, and by "destroying the past" you will be able to build of better future because the next generation (Link and Tetra) won't be burderned by the past that is Hyrule.

The King wish was for the sea to come crashing down and destroy the left over remnants of Hyrule - so that Link and Tetra can rebuild a better future. Not that Fate will literally be altered by so a future can be given.

Saying that the King of Red Lion's wish altered the future for the entire ending of Wind Waker to happen is a big stretch IMO, and it completely invalidates the concept of the hero overcoming an overwhelming evil that the Zelda series uses in every single one of its games.


I also don't think Ganon knowing Zelda was Sheik is proof enough that he has cosmic awareness, but IDK for sure.


Everything else looks fine though.
 
I still don't see how's that supposed to work.

He says: "Give these children a future". It's the first thing he says after asking for the wish.

EVEN if it were flowery language, he said that while touching the Triforce. So the Triforce would have made that regardless.

Also, Occam Razor. You're assuming that it's flowery language despite it being repeated 3 times (two times more than erasing Hyrule), that the Triforce wouldn't listen to that piece of the wish for literally no reason at all, that literally the first thing he says after he asked for the wish isn't the actual wish.

Those are waaaaay more assumption than "King touched it and said that so it was done" which is completely and 100% consistent with what happened and every single piece of information we have on the Triforce.

Also, it seems like people here think that the Triforce can only grant one wish, but that's wrong as we see at the end of ALTTP Link making way more than a single wish after he touched it. The King could have easily asked both things and both things would have been granted.

"Saying that the King of Red Lion's wish altered the future for the entire ending of Wind Waker to happen is a big stretch IMO, and it completely invalidates the concept of the hero overcoming an overwhelming evil that the Zelda series uses in every single one of its games."

Wind Waker already destroyed that by not making a Link appear when Ganon returned for the first time, and by making Ganondorf stomp Link at the final battle. Using the Triforce to defeat the main villain also happened in SS, so it's nit something so unique.
 
The King's wish was to give the kids a future by destroying the past, in this context Hyrule, and that's why the sea came crashing down. The King touched the Triforce and wished for the destruction of Hyrule - that was his wish.

And why would the Triforce have to take the wish literally? The Triforce is Omniscient, remember? It's not Amelia Bedelia, it isn't so stupid that it has to take everything literally - it would know the true intentions of the user's wish and grant them.

To quote a movie I hate: "Let the past die, kill it, if you have to..." is the entire mindset of the King of Hyrule - and that past is himself and his Kingdom. As the past needs to die to propagate a proper future - which Tetra and Link.

And explain to me how and why altering the future would cause the sea to crash down? **** it, if Link was forced into defeating Ganon by the Triforce manipulating their Fates, then why didn't Ganon just drop dead right there? Why even have a fight if it was meaningless?


Link not being there to fight Ganondorf does not ruin the concept of a the hero defeating an overwhelming evil at all because the hero wasn't there - what would destroy that concept is if the goddesses's power forced the hero to win, instead of the hero winning with his wits, skills, and courage.

Theses battles are supposed to have real stakes, Link dying in Ocarina of Time to Ganon is proof of that - to state that the climax of the Wind Waker is predestined by a wish made in a cutscene a few minutes prior to facetious.
 
Destruction of Hyrule =/= Giving Link and Zelda a bright future. It was NECESSARY to destroy it, but just destroying it WASN'T enough.

And you're saying that the thing the King repeated for 3 times while touching the Triforce isn't what he wished because? I could understand if he only said it once, but his repeating quite clearly indicates that he truly wanted that.

Because they are two different wishes. You even directly stated above that the destruction of Hyrule was needed to create a future for them. And the reason he didn't immediately die is the exact same reason nearly every fate manipulator of the wiki doesn't just win the instant the fight starts. They manipulate the future and give themselves a higher chance to win, they don't make the opponent drop dead. Most of the times at least. The fact that the King didn't wish for Ganon to just drop dead helps that.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Destruction of Hyrule =/= Giving Link and Zelda a bright future. It was NECESSARY to destroy it, but just destroying it WASN'T enough.
And you're saying that the thing the King repeated for 3 times while touching the Triforce isn't what he wished because? I could understand if he only said it once, but his repeating quite clearly indicates that he truly wanted that.

Because they are two different wishes. You even directly stated above that the destruction of Hyrule was needed to create a future for them. And the reason he didn't immediately die is the exact same reason nearly every fate manipulator of the wiki doesn't just win the instant the fight starts. They manipulate the future and give themselves a higher chance to win, they don't make the opponent drop dead. Most of the times at least. The fact that the King didn't wish for Ganon to just drop dead helps that.
Click to expand...
By destroying the past, Link and Zelda would be able to move on to build a better future. So yes, just destroying the past or Hyule is enough to give them a better future, because that psat wouldn't be a burden to them any longer.

And just becaues the King speech in a grandiose manner, and speaks metaphorically, doesn't mean he is manipulating the future. That's the stretch.


And that is such a cop out - most Fate manipulators who lose to others lose because they don't use their powers efficiently. If the King is forcing Fate to make Link his fight and then actually forcing him to find a new land to build a brighter future, then he is already using his powers efficiently so that the good guys would win.

A character is either plauged by CIS and doesn't use their powers corerctly or they aren't and they do.
 
Link and Zelda COULD move to make a better future. As I said, while it was necessary, it's not sufficient. Just like being French is necessary to be from Paris, it's not enough (sufficient) to be French to be from Paris. Similarly, the destruction of Hyrule is necessary for their bright future, but it's not enough.

And yet, he repeats that for 3 times. No one would ever repeat something for 3 times while not really meaning it. I cannot really stress out how UNREALISTIC it is for a person, no matter who, to repeat the exact same thing while still saying it's flowery language.

Example:

Kid: "Dad, I want an Ice Cream! I really want a Chocolate Ice Cream. Please open the freezer and take one from there. I want a chocolate Ice Cream!"

If you were the father of this kid, would you think he wants an Ice Cream or not?
 
You misunderstand, the King's dream is for the next generation to build a better future - but the way he goes about getting that better future isn't by altering the future, but by destroying the burdens of the past.

The destruction of Hyrule will allow the next generation to build a brighter future. That's what the King believes and that is his wish - but to say that he obtains that wish by using the Triforce to alter the future, instead of just flooding Hyrule, is a stretch.


And that is a massive false equivalency.
 
I see what you mean, but that's not true. Ganondorf sinks with Hyrule exactly like the king says, for example. The barrier that protects Link and Zelda at the end of the game, too, isn't just "flooding" Hyrule.

No matter how you look at it, the King did something more than just flooding Hyrule, and that something is his wish for a better future (and making Ganon drow).

Also, as you said: "And why would the Triforce have to take the wish literally? The Triforce is Omniscient, remember? It's not Amelia Bedelia, it isn't so stupid that it has to take everything literally - it would know the true intentions of the user's wish and grant them." If the King would want to destroy Hyrule to give them a better future, then the Triforce would know it and do it.
 
Ganon sinks with Hyrule because he became stone from being stabbed with the Master Sword - that's not proof of anything other than the Master Sword having Petrification as an ability.
 
Warren Valion said:
Ganon sinks with Hyrule because he became stone from being stabbed with the Master Sword - that's not proof of anything other than the Master Sword having Petrification as an ability.
Click to expand...
And yet, that's a part of the wish. He asked for it and it did happen. I should also note how that's the last time we see Ganondorf in the Adult Timeline, almost as if the King's wish prevented Ganon from "freeing" himself from the petrification... Ganon already came back from something similar in TP after all.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Warren Valion said:
Ganon sinks with Hyrule because he became stone from being stabbed with the Master Sword - that's not proof of anything other than the Master Sword having Petrification as an ability.
Click to expand...
And yet, that's a part of the wish. He asked for it and it did happen. I should also note how that's the last time we see Ganondorf in the Adult Timeline, almost as if the King's wish prevented Ganon from "freeing" himself from the petrification... Ganon already came back from something similar in TP after all.
Click to expand...
That's just your headcanon.

And when did Ganon in TP ever free himself from Petrification? And from an item which weakens him no less.
 
Oh, I know very well it's not officially confirmed. I was just pointing out this rather peculiar happening.
 
I just remembered him having it in his profile. Outside of that one, he doesn't have any other Regenerationn feat in Minish Cap, and I haven't played the Four Sword games. Dust has, though, you can try asking to him
 
I'm really not seeing what the problem with Vatti's regen here is. He explodes and 10 minutes later he comes back... like, i'm pretty sure the rule applying here is idiotic.

I agree with Warren on the rest though.
 
I brought regen feats like Vatti's before, they were all rejected while seen as just as silly and idiotic. It doesn't matter if you guys disagree with that and want to make an exception to the rule. Try to fix the rule itself so that they may be no exceptions to it would be more reasonable.
 
I think Vaati's Regenerationn seems fine. But Fate Manipulation is what seems most iffy here.
 
Relatively small thing as it doesn't change any if his P&A but still pretty important:

"The Moon Pearl

A jewel that can repel evil. It provides protection against the evil power of the Demon King Ganon, who controlled the Dark World, and it prevents the body from changing."

From here, a translation of Hyrule Historia

Basically, Moon Pearl isn't (only) resistance to Transmutation but it's outright passive Power Nullification of "evil"
 
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