Zelda: Adding Abilities

[TriforcePower1]

Anyway, given that transmutation comes from the Triforce, as several statements refer:

"Oh? Who are you, Mr. Bunny? This world is like the real world, but evil has twisted it.

The Golden Power is what changed your shape to reflect what is in your heart and mind.

I am always changing my mind, so I turned into a ball... But if you have a ball called

the Moon Pearl, you can keep your original shape here."

"You found the Moon Pearl! This protects The Hero from the changing effects of the

Golden Power."

I would say it's safe to assume it just protects Link in general against powers used against him that he would perceive as "evil", as the Triforce isn't exactly "evil".

 

[TriforcePower1]

Bump

 

[TriforcePower1]

I'm honestly starting to think this thread may be cursed. Yes, these are just bumps

 

[PaChi2]

About Fate Manipulation:

The first time I read that line I didnt interprete it as literally word by word "give this children a future". After you read the second part, I understand it as the King wanting to bury the past (aka Hyrule, and Ganondorf) so that the rest can have a better future.

I will comment on the rest later.

 

[Konaguna]

I don't agree with fate manipulation being added on the list.

It's just another thing triforce does via wishes, it's not a specific ability, just another one among many.

The fight was rigged since King of Hyrule used his wish, it couldn't ave played any other way

 

[TriforcePower1]

Okay, no one agreed with Fate Manipulation so now there's a big X next to it. Can we please focus on Ganondorf's resistances and the Moon Pearl?

 

[Konaguna]

by all means

 

[Konaguna]

The stuff about mytery seeds and medallion seem fine.

I don't agree with energy beams since it's not a resistance but rather a durability thing

I'm neutral on cosmic awareness

 

[TriforcePower1]

You were supposed to comment about those two things...

 

[Konaguna]

since we're talking about Ganon, what about him having abstract existence? since he exists as demise's hatred. literally stated by him

 

[Konaguna]

Also now that I think about it I don't think cosmic awareness is gonna cut it.

I don't know what the ToT has to do with it, but Ganon always had this extrasensory perception whihc allowed him to percieve actions from far away

 

[TriforcePower1]

Such as...? Every time he showed it he had the Triforce of Power with him. There's also the "omniscient" statement to take into consideration.

 

[Konaguna]

Omniscient shit comes from Triforce of Wisdom. There's no reason wahtsoever for ToP to have it, it makes no sense at all.


He's appeared in Wind Waker, when he kidnapped zelda he did the exact same thing he did in OOT temple of time. He can simply observe far away location and interact with subject within that range.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Extrasensory Perception and Clairvoyance covers what Ganon did in OOT.

 

[Konaguna]

Extrasensory Perception and Clairvoyance covers what Ganon did in OOT.

That's exactly it Jenkins

 

[TriforcePower1]

Extrasensory Perception and Clairvoyance covers what Ganon did in OOT.

Yeah, this is fine, too. The page about Cosmic Awareness outright says it's those two abilities together but whatever, it doesn't change much

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

My dude Ganon deserves that stuff he's getting.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Ok, now there's only the omniscient statement and the Moon Pearl.

 

[PaChi2]

Just add "Resistance to evil Magic with the Moon Pearl."

 

[Dust_Collector]

I'm not entirely sold on giving Ganon those resistances and saying that it's not game mechcanics. I don't recall it being a big part of the lore that Ganon is basically immune to anything in the verse (Within reason), just that he's hard to kill via conventional means due to his immorality and that it's near impossible to beat him in a fight due to his power and magic. Is there anything that also states or heavily implies he's immune to most hax in the series? I'd like scans that give concrete evidence of this before writing off the possibility that this is game mechanics.

I agree with PaChi that the moon pearl should be a resistance to evil magic rather than power null of evil magic, the part about it "providing protection" makes it clear it resists evil magic rather than nulling it.

 

[TriforcePower1]

There would be no need for the Master Sword if you can just kill him by transmutating him into a slime, or aging him etc. I'll find and post statements later.

Wait, why evil "magic"? Magic isn't mentioned either in HH or in the games. It's just "dark forces". I would also like to highlight how it's technically blocking the Triforce's powers, which aren't inherently evil, just the effect it has on Link is. This is more similar to Negation, but it shares the same page as power null.

 

[Konaguna]

Why would he need Statements? FF VI characters have resistance to hax that can't kill them and they ain't game Mechanics. He has feats and that's all that matters. (for the abilities in question that is)

 

[PaChi2]

"A jewel that can repel evil. It provides protection against the evil power of the Demon King Ganon, who controlled the Dark World, and it prevents the body from changing."

Unless Ganon has non-magic related powers, and by non-magic I mean totally unrelated powers that dont require magic to work, the only generalization you can do is:

1) Moon pearl protects you from Ganon's powers (99% magic afaik).

2) Moon pearl prevents the Dark World from transforming the user.

Moon Pearl gives, then: Resistance to evil Magic (ganon) + Resistance to Transmutation (Dark World).

"Resistance to evil" is too vague and prone to NLF. I'd rather avoid that wording.

 

[TriforcePower1]

@PaChi

Yeah, but there's this, too: "You found the Moon Pearl! This protects The Hero from the changing effects of the Golden Power." (ALTTP description)

"Evil" is probably referring to the effects it has on Link, not necessarily the source, or maybe it's simply stating what it did in the game. Also, the Triforce has RW and not magic, so there's that, too.

That's why we have Negation

 

[PaChi2]

I... Really dont like what can come from overgeneralizing what the Moon Pearl can do without feats. Like, seriously, you are picking that statement, which is vague, and saying it can null stuff that hasnt been shown to null.

I.e: Link vs random villain.

>Moon Pearl nulls everything because it works with Ganon's evilness. GG.

>Feats?

>Dark World

>Anything else?

>Nope

>Dood.

 

[TriforcePower1]

PaChi, we get along and everything, but that's incredulity fallacy. This REALLY isn't much different than every power nullificator or guy with Negation in the wiki. They have statements of negating stuff so we say that they can negate stuff. That's it.

 

[PaChi2]

PaChi, we get along and everything, but that's incredulity fallacy. This REALLY isn't much different than every power nullificator or guy with Negation in the wiki. They have statements of negating stuff so we say that they can negate stuff. That's it.

Implying I dont have issues with Power Nullification.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Implying I care

It may seem cold, but the only thing I can tell you is: "Do a CRT". There's no other way to change stuff in this wiki.

 

[PaChi2]

Welp.

If I cant convince you that the "conservative approach" is the best when handling this kind of abilities in order to avoid unnecessary derailing in debates, I cant do anything else.

Since the Moon Pearl only affects link it should count as Resistanceb tho. It does not affect Link's surroundings.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Isn't Negation more appropriate here? Hax hits character, hax doesn't affect character. That's what Negation is and what the Moon Pearl does.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here? Warren seemed to make sense, yes, but I haven't had the time to read much of the thread.

 

[PaChi2]

Btw:

"It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume someone with this ability can nullify anything that falls within the phenomena their powers are made to counter. It is to be assumed that any negation power has its limitations based on the strongest thing it has nullified," from the PN page.

Anyway: aint negation more when something actively or through some means negates stuff? When the only thing shown is that it protects the user and doesnt affect the others, for example, weakening Ganon's powers in a radius or anything, it is more likely a resistance. Kinda like a "charm" or those kind of stuff from RPG that protect the user from status ailments.

 

[TriforcePower1]

The OP already has symbols to indicate if something got accepted and what got rejected. Stuff without symbols are still being discussed.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Btw:

"It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume someone with this ability can nullify anything that falls within the phenomena their powers are made to counter. It is to be assumed that any negation power has its limitations based on the strongest thing it has nullified," from the PN page.

Anyway: aint negation more when something actively or through some means negates stuff? When the only thing shown is that it protects the user and doesnt affect the others, for example, weakening Ganon's powers in a radius or anything, it is more likely a resistance. Kinda like a "charm" or those kind of stuff from RPG that protect the user from status ailments.

Yes, don't worry, I know about that. That's the entire reason I decided to categorize Iihiko's ability as power null, in order to prevent NLF.

Always using the Iihiko example, Iihiko has Negation for stuff not affecting him.

 

[PaChi2]

Note that Iihiko used to have a ton of resistances for that same stuff.

And you havent addressed my RPG example.

What's the difference between my Final Fantasy guys who have resistance to status effects thanks to the Ribbon protecting them and Link having the Moon Pearl.

I will answer: no difference. Nulling or resisting an ability can be called Power Nullification since in both instances you reduced the effects of an ability. We tend to classify stuff that only affects the user as resistance and stuff that can affect others as PN.

 

[PaChi2]

And about Iihiko:

Iihiko has a known mechanism from which the previously listed resistances steemed. You could say that iihiko "nulled" everything he difnt recognize or that he "resisted" everything he wouldnt recognize and you'd be okay in both scenarios. However, in this case there is no known mechanism or "ability" besides "it repels evil".

 

[TriforcePower1]

There's one main difference being that the FF guy is explicitly stated to only resist Status, which correspond to specific abilities in game. Moon Pearl, instead, is stated to null just "evil" in general, and it has an "explanation" for how it works "[it] repels evil forces", not just "you resist status because yes".

 

[PaChi2]

I see mostly "it repels evil" and "because yes" as the same thing, tbh. In fact, you are saying that "it repels evil" is a mechanism or explanatiom, when it is not, it is just saying what the Moon Pearl does.


Unless there is a clear-cut deffinition of what "evil" means for the Moon Pearl. Note that I have been addresing the vagueness in the description from the beginning.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Not exactly. The fact that it says it "repels evil power" means that: "There's Evil Power. Evil Power tries to affect Link. Moon Pearl keeps away/repels this Evil Power". You just need to break down the sentence to understand what it's trying to convey.

Admittedly we don't have an EXPLICIT statement, but we can easily understand from the context and the other statements. Fact #1: The transformation comes from the Triforce (Ball guy's statement above). Fact #2: The Triforce isn't exactly evil, but neutral. Fact #(1+2) The transformation isn't inherently evil. This is where things get tricky. Fact #3: The Moon Pearl does consider the transformation evil. So, how do we conciliate these two facts? There are two possibilities:

1. The Moon Pearl doesn't care about the source of the Hax (Triforce), only the one who uses (Ganon). For example, if a demon tried to use holy hax on Link, it wouldn't work because the caster is evil.

2. And this is more probable, the Moon Pearl nullifies what Link considers as evil. After all, the Moon Pearl cannot really know who's using the Triforce, and it's consistent with the "evil power" statement, as the holy hax above wouldn't count as, well, Evil Power. In this case, instead, the holy hax would be considered "evil" by Link, and as such the Moon Pearl will work.

Furthermore, Japanese ALTTP shows a deeper connection between the Hero and the Moon Pearl than what NoA made it:

ÒâáÒâ╝Òâ│ÒâæÒâ╝Òâ½Òü»ÞüûÕ£░Òü©ÒüèÒééÒéÇÒüÅ ÕïçÞÇàÒü«Òé¬Òâ×ÒâóÒâ¬ÒüÿÒéâÒÇéõ║║Òü«Õº┐ÒéÆ

ÒüØÒéîÒéƵëïÒü½ÕàÑÒéîÒüƒÒüéÒéôÒüƒÒüôÒüØ Òâ»ÒéÀÒü«Òü¥ÒüúÒüªÒüèÒüúÒüƒÕïçÞÇàÒüÿÒéâÒü¬ Òü®ÒüåÒüïÕ¿ÿÒéÆÕè®ÒüæÒüªÒéäÒüúÒüªÒüÅÒéî´╝ü "The Moon Pearl is a charm of the Hero who proceeds to the sacred land. [...] You, who have obtained it, surely are the Hero I have been waiting for."

While not much, I would say it works into tipping the balance to option 2.

 

[PaChi2]

I dont want to continue this discussion. And the next time you want my input in a TLoZ CRT, think it twice before going to my wall, please. Im tired of statement-supported additions that lack feats and are assumed to work as the highest possible interpretation of the statement.

This goes for both the Moon Pearl and the initial Fate Manipulation.