Ainz Ooal Gown City Level Downgrades (Part 2 - Electric Boogaloo)

So, this has been discussed a few times, and he was even downgraded once, but it was all reverted after a while. Let's try it again . . .

Ainz's City Level rating always felt weird to me. The feat supporting it is quite dubious, and it just doesn't make a whole lotta sense with what we actually see in the story. So, I'll explain here why I think Ainz and co. should be downgraded.

It's for 2 main reasons:

1. The feat that puts them at city level shouldn't really scale to actual combat spells
2. Said feat is way above any other shown in the series

Now, let's get this started.

Creation shenanigans:
This calc currently puts Ainz at City Level, with the feat of Ainz's Super Tier Spell "Creation" freezing a massive lake.

Now, I think the issue is pretty glaring: it's a terrain altering spell, with very little use for actual combat. Ainz mentions that it was used to "guard against the heat of volcanoes and the cold of freezing lands". Pretty clear Environmental Destruction, it was even listed as that for a while.

Sure, the page mentions instances where that kind of feat can scale to other attacks, but this doesn't seem fit any of the criteria. It wasn't done through physical strength, but with a special ability designed to do exactly that.

The ability is also a Super Tier Spell, that doesn't require any Mana whatsoever, and is only limited by a timer that stops you from casting another Super Tier Spell, and the restriction that it can only be used 4 times a day. So, it also shouldn't fall into the "same energy source" exception, as they don't drain the caster of energy at all.

Since they don't actually draw energy from Ainz's Mana pool, I don't see a reason why they'd all need to have the same levels of energy output. Each does a different thing, so one having more energy to create a non-combat applicable effect is completely reasonable.

Fallen Down clearly has waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay less energy than Creation, while La Shub Niggurath, Pantheon and Wish Upon a Star can't be quantified like that. Hell, Ainz even mentions how unreasonably potent Creation is:

"In YGGDRASIL the spell effect could cover an 'Area', but how big would an 'Area' be in this world? Ainz wanted to find out. If it could cover an entire plain, that would be too big.

Similarly, freezing the entire lake was going overboard. Care should be taken when using Super-tier magic."- Volume 4

And this leads us to next point . . .

Inconsistency:
That calc puts the Creation feat at 46 Megatons, close to a Tsar Bomba. Hella powerful, but do any other feats the series get even close to this? Well, no . . . not at all . . . seriously.

First, let's look at at the second best calced feat, from what I can find: Fallen Dow.

Now, huge blast of heat, gigantic crater, all seems well and good . . . until you remember that's not canon. Because in the Light Novel, the actual primary canon source here, this is what happens:

"In contrast, the area within the circular area was charred black, converted into a dead zone of jaw-dropping proportions.

The awe-inspiring temperatures had consumed all the vegetation in the area, leaving only a few carbonized tree stumps. There were several vitrified areas on the ground which were still emitting smoke." - Volume 3, chapter 5

No mention of a crater at all, in fact, it's even mentioned that there are carbonized tree trumps visible. Clearly nowhere near as powerful as the one in the anime. Since the anime scene contradicts the primary canon, it really shouldn't be used.

There's another calc, but it assumes that the spell vaporized Shalltear's armor, which is also not mentioned in the Light Novel at all. In fact, they make a point that Ainz grabbed Shalltear's gear after she died, and the armor appears in Volume 11, so it clearly wasn't destroyed.

So, the only AP based Super Tier Spell is nowhere near City Level. What about others?

The only other spell that I can think of would be Nuclear Blast. But it's best feat is destroying the buildings around Ainz. How many aren't said, but Neia says later that they had only destroyed one city district until that point:

"They ought to have been grateful that only a single city district was destroyed. Many houses were on fire and white plumes of smoke reached to the sky, but the total casualties were almost nil." - Volume 13

And since she bothers to mention that houses were on fire, it's not even like he turned the district into a crater or anything. They were just wrecking buildings left and right. And while Ainz does say that he could have widened the range of the spell, how much is unknown, and even amping it several times over wouldn't make it City Level.

Since Ainz has no feats on that level, what about others? None of the Guardians do, for sure. Evileye's city busting has been revealed to just be hax, and Lakyus is too Chuni to be taken seriously about what her sword can do.

There surely are a crapton of statements about characters destroying cities, but, problem is, they all happened off-screen, with no real timeframe given, and no clarification of what "destroying" a city even means. Places are said to be destroyed several times, while their actual buildings and overall infrastructure are completely intact. They were "destroyed" because everyone in them died.

"The expression on the girl's face was strange; it seemed lonely and happy at the same time. Kunivela could not understand it.

"I'll ask, then. Do you know anything about how the country of Inveria was destroyed by all its people becoming Zombies?"

He searched his memory after hearing the word Inveria, but all he knew about it was that it was some faraway country." - Bonus Volume

In that specific volume, we do get to see quite a few "destroyed" cities. They're all in ruins, sure, but they weren't nuked to oblivion or anything, there are still many buildings intact in all of those.

TLDR:
The City Level spell is not applicable to combat, doesn't necessarily scale to any other spell, and it's energy output is far above anything else in the series, so I don't think Ainz and co. should have their ratings based on that one.

What ya'll think?

If thats true, what tier would they actually be, then?

EmperorDoom25 said:

If thats true, what tier would they actually be?

Click to expand...

Multi City-Block, maybe? Nuclear blast seems to be on that level.

Ehhh this seems off to me but Ill wait for more experts, ive argued enough recently....

The pen or the sword said:

Ehhh this seems off to me but Ill wait for more experts, ive argued enough recently....

Click to expand...

What seems off to you?

Sigh, I promised myself not to get involved in another crt until resistances went through and I took a break but here I am.

I have a few problems with the above post, One all the feats you listed? All the calcs that go along with them? They are all still valid, your claim is no other spells scale to this but ainz has over seven hundred spells, we've barly seen any of his ninth to tenth teir spells.

second Nuclear blast one of the weakest ninth teir spells was still capable of destroying multiple city blocks. Thus I feel there is more than enough reason to think larger more powerful spells exist not just within that teir but the one above it.

Shalltear and the other gaudians easily deflected and killed off a massive tree said to be a threat to the entire world. They had ainz turn it into a christmas tree...

I feel not enough has changed to warrant this downgrade and thus stand opposed.

Being a threat to the world doesnt equate to ap my dude at all fam like hitler was a worldwide threat but he only a human dog man it doesn't fly with me hear?

Fallen down clearly meant to be megastrong blast but somehow it be weaker than some terrain affectin spell that deal no damage something wrong here brah

Hitler was a threat due to his army/political power this tree was a single entity...

Beeing a threat to the world doesnt really tell us anything about the things ap.

Not saying it does. My whole point is not alot has changed with the newest volume.

The pen or the sword said:

Hitler was a threat due to his army/political power this tree was a single entity...

Click to expand...

Doesn't matter fam the point is it is a meaningless quote with no indication of how strong they are see what I mean?

HereComesBigBoi said:

Fallen down clearly meant to be megastrong blast but somehow it be weaker than some terrain affectin spell that deal no damage something wrong here brah

Click to expand...

Fallen down did arguably less damage than nuclear blast despite being a much stronger spell so i think its supposed to be less of a megablast and more of a super concentrated, target focused attack thats aiming at you.

Yes read the above post not really the core of my point...

I also feel the feat in the anime doesn't contradict that in the light novel. it is mentioned there are tree stumps nothing is given to the postion or damage these have taken. as ainz doesn't mention a crater but nor does he mention the ground in any way these two statements do not in fact contradict eachother.

Actualy we get to see the ground outside the crater and the vegetation does seem to have been destroyed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02pmPMCWHGo&t=4m45s

We dont see any virtified areas or any tree stumps but the area we are shown is rather small so that doesnt mean there couldnt have been any. Still though, the fact there was no mention of a crater kinda puts the feat into question.

It does but if it lacks a direct contradiction we can still consider it valid, especially since the ground is never referenced in there fight after fallen down. Unless there is a direct contradiction the feat should still be considered valid.

edit I suppose I could be wrong here but my stance on contradictions has always been a hard one. Something from the source material has to make a statment/description that directly contradicts something shown in another medium.

There isnt a direct contradiction but a several dozen meter wide crater seems like a big thing to not mention. Thats just my opinion though.

The Hiroshima bomb has 15 kiloton TNT explosion and is 7-C. Tsar Bomba has 58 megaton TNT explosion explosion and is at least 7-B. So AOG should be no weaker than that if he scales to a nuclear blast.

Of course, any more concrete and more comparable feat calculation overwrites that.

I understand but as its not directly contradicted only not mentioned its still valid, which logically is probably why its still on the profile as a showing of the power of fallen down. And saying all that the author not mentioning a giant crater sounds perfectly normal considering all the other things he chooses not to mention or explain.

So overall my stance remains unchanged none of the feats mentioned in the op have changed, none of the calcs that peg ainz and co at 7 have changed. So Im saying leave them as they are until something actually does change to warrant this crt.

Regarding Fallen Down, if it had been powerful enough to vaporize a huge amount of earth and create a gigantic crater, the tree stumps should have been vaporized as well, no? He mentions that the spell was powerful enough to destroy the vegetation, not destroy the ground or anything. The anime one clearly contradicts the LN one, it's far more powerful.

The Tree was a threat to the world because it was a level 80 monster. If it started rampaging around the world, only Ainz's group or the Dragon Lords could be able to stop it. An unstoppable monster that almost no one could harm is certainly a threat to the world, but it doesn't mean the thing is gonna be nuking cities left and right.

Jasonsith said:

The Hiroshima bomb has 15 Kiloton explosion and is 7-C. So AOG should be no weaker than that if he scales to a nuclear blast.

Of course, any more concrete and more comparable feat calculation overwrites that.

Click to expand...

According to that page, Little Boy had a lethal blast radius of 1.3 miles, far more than Ainz's Nuclear Blast spell. Being a nuclear blast doesn't necessarily make it as powerful as the Hiroshima bomb, some nukes can be as weak as 1 kiloton, or even 20 tons of TNT. Ainz's spell is only stated to destroy the buildings around him, and even though Neia mentions they destroyed a city district, she also says that there were buildings on fire there, so the "destroyed" area should also include the parts that were set on fire by the blast's heat wave. His spell should be on the lower end

@Pen:

While we don't know all his other spells, fact of the matter is, he only has one City Level feat, with a terrain altering spell that doesn't even follow the exceptions to not be Environmental Destruction, and all his other feats are far below City Level. He might have some spell on that level, who knows, but he hasn't shown any till now, so I don't think his rating here is accurate.

Except the location of the vegetation isn't stated, he never mentions the condition of the ground or whether there is a crater or not. We see destroyed vegetation around the edge. Its not a direct contradiction thus still valid.


Im sticking by my orignal point not enough has changed for me to agree with these downgrades.

The location is stated, inside the area of the spell. Hell, it's specifically mentioned that anything outside of the spell's range wasn't affected at all:

"Nothing outside the area of effect was affected. The trees were still trees, the earth was as full of vitality as the forest, and the forest itself was untouched — an extremely normal world.

In contrast, the area within the circular area was charred black, converted into a dead zone of jaw-dropping proportions.

The awe-inspiring temperatures had consumed all the vegetation in the area, leaving only a few carbonized tree stumps. There were several vitrified areas on the ground which were still emitting smoke."

Only the vegetation is stated to have been destroyed, and not even completely, as there were tree stumps around still.

If it had vaporized the ground and created a giant crater, then:

1- The tree stumps should have been destroyed as well

2- The hole in the ground would have been mentioned at some point. It wasn't, from what I can tell.

How large was the area? Were there tree stumps everywhere? Its not stated one way or the other if there was a crator, it was never referenced but the area they fought in was only ever referenced as destroyed.

I agree it should have come up but since theres no confirmation one way or the other the anime can be used as a secondary source. Again threre are no direct contradictions. the anime shows destroyed vegetation on the edge of the crator.

A dead area of jaw-dropping proportions, perhaps there is a crator and the carbonized areas suround it. Unless the area is referenced as being flat there is no solid contradiction against the feat shown in the anime.

All of this is secondary to my original point, not enough has changed for me to approve of these changes. If enough others agree with you i won't fight it, but until we have more people discussing the possible downgrade im not comftorable agreeing with it

I've looked through the anime fight, and there doesn't seem to be any destroyed trees outside the crater. Much like the LN, the effects of the attack didn't seem to damage anything outside it's AoE, it's just that the anime made all the area into a crater, while the LN didn't.

And you still haven't answered how there could possibly be carbonized tree stumps around if the heat was powerful enough to vaporize the earth enough to create a gigantic crater. Or why would destroying trees be mentioned to show that the spell was powerful, if it created a much more noticeable crater.

My stance reamains unchanged though you may be right about fallen down. I could of course make the argument we don't get a good look at the edge of the crator but at that point its arguing a loosing battle.

I repeat All of this is secondary to my original point, not enough has changed for me to approve of these changes. If enough others agree with you i won't fight it, but until we have more people discussing the possible downgrade im not comftorable agreeing with it

edit I won't lie though the idea of pitting ainz against a bunch of other charcters that cant deal with his hax does make me smile.

I'll try to adress some of the arguments made by the op regarding Creation sinse pretty much every argument here has been addressed in multiple time in previous threads.

First of all, while its true that Creation is a spell that only alters the terrain its still a super tier and on the same tier as spells like Fallen Down. It doesnt really make sense for a non-combat spell like Creation to have thousands of times more energy than a spell thats actualy meant to be used in combat. Sure, super tier spells dont draw from an energy source but they should all still be somewhat comparable to each other so it doesnt make sense for one super tier spell to be that much more powerful than another, especialy if that spell is basically a weaker version of the magic Ainz uses in combat. I really dont see why other spells cant scale to creation.

Second of all, while its true that no other feats come close to creation in terms of power, we need to keep in mind that overlord has very few quantifiable feats to begin with. Ainz and the guardians rarely ever fight seriously and perform most of their feats extemily casualy. When Ainz faught Shalltear they pretty much only used single-target spells that didnt cause any enviremental damage.

Nuclear Blast is one of the few spells that actualy did significant damage to the envirement but its just a 9th tier spell that was stated to be very weak for its tier so its not really something you would expect to be strong enough to destroy a city in the first place. Fallen down did arguably less damage to the envirement than Nuclear Blast despite being a much stronger spell so i think its supposed to be less like the megablast it was in the megablast it was in the anime and more of a super concentrated, target focused attack thats aiming at you.

I personaly dont approve of these changes, you cant really say that Creation is much stroger than everything in the series when the series has so few quantifiable feats in the first place. Nuclear Blast is a 9th tier spell thats weak for its tier while Fallen Down seems to be more of a "direct super damage but low BOOM" type of spell. You cant really compare these two spells to Creation.

I concur with theonebelow here, as I said nothing has changed. All of this has been discussed in the past, a concensus was reached the downgrade of the lower teirs doesn't effect this because we wern't ever scaling from them.

I'd say not being used for combat is more of a reason for it to be more powerful. It's a video-game spell, so the devs can make it more potent than the others without making it too unbalanced, since it won't actually be used to fight. Ainz himself mentions that Creation freezing a lake was going overboard, and we know that Super Tier Spells can be more powerful than others, since Wish Upon a Star exists.

I only mentioned Fallen Down and Nuclear Blast to show that even the best AP feats in the series don't even come close to that what we got in that Creation calc. Seriously, right now they're rated at 46 Megatons, and there isn't a single other that comes close to even 1 Megaton. Sure, Ainz has other spells, but after seeing he use several 8-10th tier ones while fighting Shalltear, Wrath and Cure Elim, you'd think something at least coming close would appear, but it hasn't.

He used like four spells against each of them, reality slash, sharknado, light arrows and death spells. Its not like he used twelve different tenth teir spells, hes mostly used either super or eighth teir spells. He's been in real combat twice in the series, "Not counting lord wrath as that was planned ahead of time and ainz had to limit the damage he did to the city in the process"

Id be more in agreement with you if ainz used more spells in general in these combat situations, we've seen so little of the tenth and ninth teir its not even funny the weakest spell we have from the ninth teir is still multi city block level.

I repeat nothing has changed a consensus was reached and no new evidence has emerged to contradict the current calc.

Edit: AInz has used either high damage or death spells in combat, we have yet to seem him attempt large aoe outside creation.

What do you mean more potent, creation simply alters the terrain, its highly unlikely that the devs had potency in mind when making it. We are not talking about a small difference here, we are talking about a difference in the thousands, that kind of differense is way too big for the feat to be dismised as enviremental destruction especialy when we have almost nothing to compare it to.

Ainz probably said that about creation because the spell had become more powerful than in the game, but that seems to be the case for all super tier spells. Also wish upon a star is just reality warping on a unknown scale, we have no idea what its limits and or what it can do, so we cant say its stronger than any other super tier spell.

In pretty much all his fights, Ainz only used single-target spells, not huge AOE attacks and there might actualy be a reason why. As we saw with nuclear blast its now possible to be caught up in the AOE of your own spell sinse friendly fire is now a thing, it makes sense that Ainz doesnt use these kind of spells all that much sinse i am pretty sure he doesnt want to accidentally nuke himself.

So thats me and the one below against it, lets see what others have to say.

I still think the OP is right

InfiniteSped said:

I'd say not being used for combat is more of a reason for it to be more powerful. It's a video-game spell, so the devs can make it more potent than the others without making it too unbalanced, since it won't actually be used to fight. Ainz himself mentions that Creation freezing a lake was going overboard, and we know that Super Tier Spells can be more powerful than others, since Wish Upon a Star exists.

Click to expand...

I dont think the devs made the spell any more potent than any other super tier spell, it became this ridiculously powerful only after Ainz entered the new world. The spell seemed to have been a lot weaker in the game. Guarding against heat and cold sounds a lot less impressive than instanly freezing a 20 kilometer long lake and Ainzs reaction pretty much confirms that the spell got a significant buff in the new world.

So two for and two against guess were waiting for others than.

@OneBelow: By "potent", I mean the power output, like the one calced. In the game, it could be used to deal with, say, a frozen wasteland, so using it on a large area before a mission could be useful. The range clearly changed, and it seems to have gotten a buff like TGoALiD and Wish Upon a Star, so I guess what the devs programmed doesn't matter that much. Still, it's not intended for combat, and, in a game, there's no need to balance the other spells' power output to match Creation, they all do different things.

The thing with the unknown spells is: it's highly unlikely any of them has that great of a AoE to begin with, at least not the combat ones. Ainz himself says that Nuclear Blast has one of the best AoEs in his arsenal:

"First of all, it had a very large area of effect. It was superior to almost all other spells in that respect." - Volume 13

And, still, it only destroyed a city district, at most, likely way less than that. So, even if he had bothered to use AoE spells in his other fights, it's unlikely we'd get a feat better than that.

The almost all, and the fact there are two teirs of spell above this one keep me leaning towards not changing.

As i have already mentioned, it doesnt matter if its not intended for combat sinse its still on the same tier as spells like Fallen Down and thus should be somewhat comparable. It doesnt really make sense for a non-combat spell like Creation to have thousands of times more energy than a spell thats actualy meant to be used in combat. This point has be addressed multiple time in previous threads and it has been agreed that there is no reason for Creation not to scale to Ainz's other super tier spells sinse its basically a lesser version of the magic he uses in combat and unlike La Shub Niggurath, Pantheon and Wish Upon a Star, it can actualy quantified.

For starters having a large AOE doesnt make the spell more powerful, Nuclear Blast did have a large AOE but it was still just a 9th tier spell and was stated to be very weak for its tier in terms of damage output. Aside from Nuclear blast all other spells Ainz has ever used have been either single-target attacks with no enviremental damage or non-combat realated ones.

Creation is the only big AOE spell Ainz has ever used that can actualy be quantified. As the pen mentioned Nuclear Blast is was stated to be supperior to almost all other spells but not all of them and its two tiers lower than Creation.

The terrain spell part was already debunked multiple times. It's applicable to AP.

Three against than

Guys there isn't going to be an agreement here lets wait for others to show up so we can get a general consensus....

WHY WOULD I DO THIS TO MYSELF AGAIN!!!!!

edit YOBO YOUR PROFILE PIC WHY!!!