Gilgamesh downgrade

AkatsukiChurch · Apr 25, 2016

Didn't know the correct board, so please excuse that. But anyway. CCC Gilgamesh's speed should be edited to MFTL travel speed via one of his Noble Phantasms. Scaling him to Tamamo doesn't work because, as her own page said, she didn't cross with footspeed alone, and instead used spatial manipulation, and also, as the NF link in his speed section says, he used a ship on his GoB to do it. Here's the translation:

"Kiara Sessyoin: That's...! Even though you were flung to the edge of the galaxy......! Even if this is a conceptual space, you shouldn't have been able to cross that distance in an instant! How were you able to fly faster than light?

Gilgamesh: You idiot, did you think I wouldn't have a ship of light among my treasures? Just because I like the classics doesn't mean I don't keep up with recent developments. If there is a technique that sends somebody to the edges of space, then there will be a Noble Phantasm corresponding to it."

And also, his durability shouldn't scale from Kiara's Noble Phantasm, since him tanking it is purely game mechanics, otherwise one could say that he outright tanked Karna's Vasavi Shakti, which destroys anyone with divinity, in the same sense that Enkidu restrains those with divinity. This one also applies to Tamamo no Mae, Nero and EMIYA.

LordAizenSama · Apr 25, 2016

So if he is downgraded, what would he actually be downgraded to?

AkatsukiChurch · Apr 25, 2016

LordAizenSama said:
So if he is downgraded, what would he actually be downgraded to?

MFTL travel speed via GoB, the rest (movement, reaction, etc.) should be the same as his Fate/Stay Night counterpart, I assume. Durability should also be the same as in Fate/Stay Night by feats.

Edit: Hypersonic+ with High Hypersonic reactions for speed, and Building level, City level with his armor for durability

LordAizenSama · Apr 25, 2016

hmm. Just for clarification are you able to get a link to the feat that uses game mechanics?

Reppuzan · Apr 25, 2016

Well, you're going to have to take it up with Kamiyasha for this.

Honestly, I don't think he needs the downgrade since :

1) He blasted his way out of the Far Side with Gate of Babylon blazing, destroying all of the impediments in his way that would prevent him from reaching the Near Side

2) In his ending he saves Hakuno from deletion after defeating Saver, a Bodhisvatta of Solar System level proportions, meaning that the whole Large Planet level thing is hardly an outlier

3) Karna's power was heavily nerfed by the fact that he had Jinako as his master.

Also the link to the calc can be found here.

KamiYasha · Apr 25, 2016

Yes, there are some difference depending on some characters, but is mostly power-scaling.

Gilgamesh Durability scale to Kiara's Ap not just only for a mere "game mechanic", but also because of him being a higher level than her. The same as Amaterasu and etc.

The fact of Karna's Vasavi Shakti is that is an Anti-Divine EX Rank Noble Phanthasm, Gil has one of the highest Divinity Ranks in the whole series (2/3 God and 1/3 Human). You could considered as an "Ignore conevtional durability depending on the target's Divinity" (although karna is also certainly strong)

The same applies to Enkidu Chains, the only fact is that Vasavi Shakti was ment to destroy and Enkidu Chains to retain.

AkatsukiChurch · Apr 25, 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBiG4xwNWdk

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21245

It's a special move, that may or may not be used during the fight, and it's pure speculation to say that she used it, when other Noble Phantasms that we know for a fact would kill Gil if used(Vasavi Shakti from Karna, which destroys anyone with divinity e.g. Gilgamesh) fall under the same category as that move I linked. In other words, to say that Kiara used that and Gil tanked it, would be the same to say that Gil tanked attacks that we know for a fact that he can't survive. Also, the survival of this move relies on other game mechanic features, such as HP.

Edit: the link for the calc doesn't work anymore apparently, I apologize. It's the one taken from Gil's page though

AkatsukiChurch · Apr 25, 2016

Reppuzan said:
Well, you're going to have to take it up with Kamiyasha for this.

Honestly, I don't think he needs the downgrade since :

1) He blasted his way out of the Far Side with Gate of Babylon blazing, destroying all of the impediments in his way that would prevent him from reaching the Near Side

2) In his ending he saves Hakuno from deletion after defeating Saver, a Bodhisvatta of Solar System level proportions, meaning that the whole Large Planet level thing is hardly an outlier

3) Karna's power was heavily nerfed by the fact that he had Jinako as his master.

Also the link to the calc can be found here.

1) He simply brought out a ship that counters being flung to the edge of the galaxy (which is what Kiara did to him), which he literally states in the translated quote.

2) Saver is the final boss of Fate/Extra (in which Gil isn't even playable), not CCC. Also, I'm not disputing his Large Planet level DC, only durability.

3) Which doesn't take the Divinity killing property away from it, so Gil still dies against it.

RegisNex1232 · Apr 25, 2016

Replying to get notifs

Reppuzan · Apr 25, 2016

1) He simply brought out a ship that counters being flung to the edge of the galaxy (which is what Kiara did to him), which he literally states in the translated quote.

2) Saver is the final boss of Fate/Extra (in which Gil isn't even playable), not CCC. Also, I'm not disputing his Large Planet level DC, only durability.

3) Which doesn't take the Divinity killing property away from it, so Gil still dies against it.

1) Except he is also able to aim and fire his Gate of Babylon while in flight.

2) He explicitly saves Hakuno from deletion after fighting through the Grail War with them in his ending, leading to the deletion scene after beating Saver before saving them and flying away to another planet.

3) It suffered the same problem as Excalibur during the Bad End where Berserker bats it away

AkatsukiChurch · Apr 25, 2016

KamiYasha said:
Yes, there are some difference depending on some characters, but is mostly power-scaling.
Gilgamesh Durability scale to Kiara's Ap not just only for a mere "game mechanic", but also because of him being a higher level than her. The same as Amaterasu and etc.

The fact of Karna's Vasavi Shakti is that is an Anti-Divine EX Rank Noble Phanthasm, Gil has one of the highest Divinity Ranks in the whole series (2/3 God and 1/3 Human). You could considered as an "Ignore conevtional durability depending on the target's Divinity" (although karna is also certainly strong)

The same applies to Enkidu Chains, the only fact is that Vasavi Shakti was ment to destroy and Enkidu Chains to retain.

Being above her doesn't make him necessarily more durable, otherwise we'd be putting FSN Gil above Heracles in durability, which clearly contradicts the fact that Heracles has a higher endurance rank than Gil.

What exactly are you pulling here? Vasavi Shakti kills divinity, if anything, more divinity means more chance to destroy. This bit of your post makes zero sense.

This last bit proves my point even further if anything.

AkatsukiChurch · Apr 25, 2016

Reppuzan said:
1) He simply brought out a ship that counters being flung to the edge of the galaxy (which is what Kiara did to him), which he literally states in the translated quote.

2) Saver is the final boss of Fate/Extra (in which Gil isn't even playable), not CCC. Also, I'm not disputing his Large Planet level DC, only durability.

3) Which doesn't take the Divinity killing property away from it, so Gil still dies against it.

1) Except he is also able to aim and fire his Gate of Babylon while in flight.
2) He explicitly saves Hakuno from deletion after fighting through the Grail War with them in his ending, leading to the deletion scene after beating Saver before saving them and flying away to another planet.

3) It suffered the same problem as Excalibur during the Bad End where Berserker bats it away

1) Source?

2) Ok, but why would that matter when we're talking about his durability?

3) Excalibur had its firepower reduced. At best you can argue that the firepower of Vasavi Shakti reduces due to lack of mana, its insta-killing divine enemies trait doesn't go away unless you have anything that proves otherwise. Either way, there's still no proof that he used it outside of game mechanics, in fact, Karna still had the red things in his back that break when he uses Vasavi Shakti in-game after the fight, indicating that he didn't use it.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EiPx_Bf51E

LordAizenSama · Apr 25, 2016

Well, even assuming Gilgamesh had aimed and fired using GoB at that speed that doesn't mean he can move at that speed, that would only be combat/reaction speed.

Can't comment on much else though. I don't follow the series.

Yamatohime · Apr 25, 2016

Wasn't Vasavi Shakti gifted to Karna's Master in the form of armor? I mean... You can have only one of two: spear ot armor.

Reppuzan · Apr 25, 2016

1) I'm afraid that I don't have direct evidence, but I remember the Type-Moon wiki saying that he burned ninety percent of his treasury on his way out of the Far Side in the process of "breaking" the rule against him during the ending.

2) The whole "game mechanics" idea comes from the fact that it seems like an outlier, when in reality he can take on an even more powerful opponent and survive.

3) It's firepower was reduced, that's exactly what I'm arguing. The whole armor thing can be resolved by the fact that they reused his overworld model to save resources.

AkatsukiChurch · Apr 25, 2016

LordAizenSama said:
Well, even assuming Gilgamesh had aimed and fired using GoB at that speed that doesn't mean he can move at that speed, that would only be combat/reaction speed.
Can't comment on much else though. I don't follow the series.

True, but the thing is, he didn't even do anything while using it. Kiara threw him to the other edge of the galaxy, he used the ship NP to cross the distance, and then he is suddenly back in the battlefield, and the dialogue I posted here happens. Here's the scene (untranslated though)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jzXXsQjx4M

skip to 7:30 or so

AkatsukiChurch · Apr 25, 2016

Yamatohime said:
Wasn't Vasavi Shakti gifted to Karna's Master in the form of armor? I mean... You can have only one of two: spear ot armor.

He gifted Kavacha & Kundala (his armour) to his Master in order to protect her. But that's not the issue, the thing is, during the fight against Karna, he can use Vasavi Shakti in-game, which we know that he didn't in the story for reasons already pointed out. Kiara's NP is under the same circumstance as Vasavi Shakti, so scaling her Noble Phantasm to Gil's durability due to him being able to "tank" it in-game (which is also tied to other gameplay mechanics such as HP), even though there's no evidence that she used it outside of gameplay mechanics, is... well, wrong.

AkatsukiChurch · Apr 25, 2016

Reppuzan said:
1) I'm afraid that I don't have direct evidence, but I remember the Type-Moon wiki saying that he burned ninety percent of his treasury on his way out of the Far Side in the process of "breaking" the rule against him during the ending.
2) The whole "game mechanics" idea comes from the fact that it seems like an outlier, when in reality he can take on an even more powerful opponent and survive.

3) It's firepower was reduced, that's exactly what I'm arguing. The whole armor thing can be resolved by the fact that they reused his overworld model to save resources.

1) I'm not even sure we're talking about the same thing anymore. All he did was use the ship to reach the battlefield, which he states in the quote.

2) The whole gameplay mechanics idea comes from the fact that him tanking her NP, even though it's unknown if she used it or not, is pure speculation. And taking another opponent is irrelevant to his durability, unless we know for a fact that he took Saver's strongest blows.

3) I'm not talking about firepower here (even if we were, it seems rather unlikely that he'd be able to take a rank A++ Noble Phantasm directly considering Excalibur one shotted him with his armour the last time, but I'm not gonna go there), I'm talking about its Anti-Divinity trait, which obliterates anyone with divinity, and Gil has a pretty damn high Divinity rank. There's also the red things on Karna's back point that you completely ignored.

Reppuzan · Apr 25, 2016

1) According to the Type-Moon wiki, he flew out of the Far Side on said ship of light, blasting his way through his defenses to reach the Near Side since he had to use ninety percent of his treasury, implying that he avoided its systems by using his Noble Phantasms and by flying out at the speed at which he approached Kiara.

2) There's also no evidence that she didn't use it either. She was actively trying to kill the both of them and thus had no reason to not use her NP to try and defeat them. The entire basis of your logic is based on the fact that she may have not used her NP and that surviving it is "game mechanics" when he does in fact have greater feats (being stronger than the Servants who defeated Saver and beating Saver himself in his epilogue at the end of CCC) and the fact that she is more than likely to at least try to use it in order to defeat Gil and advance,

AidenBrooks999 · Apr 25, 2016

RegisNex1232 said:
Replying to get notifs

You can just push the "Follow" button...

AkatsukiChurch · Apr 25, 2016

Reppuzan said:
1) According to the Type-Moon wiki, he flew out of the Far Side on said ship of light, blasting his way through his defenses to reach the Near Side since he had to use ninety percent of his treasury, implying that he avoided its systems by using his Noble Phantasms and by flying out at the speed at which he approached Kiara.
2) There's also no evidence that she didn't use it either. She was actively trying to kill the both of them and thus had no reason to not use her NP to try and defeat them. The entire basis of your logic is based on the fact that she may have not used her NP and that surviving it is "game mechanics" when he does in fact have greater feats (being stronger than the Servants who defeated Saver and beating Saver himself in his epilogue at the end of CCC) and the fact that she is more than likely to at least try to use it in order to defeat Gil and advance,

1)that wiki is open for anyone to edit, so I'll ask you for the source that backs the statement up.

2) That's not how the burden of proof works. Karna had no reason to hold back either, especially when he wasn't in a position to choose to do so, considering he was facing someone stronger than him even at full power, let alone in his weakened state. There's also no proof that Nero/Tamamo/Emiya tanked any of Buddha's strongest attacks, even if they did, only the ones who have lower endurance stats can scale to him. Beating Saver isn't a durability feat either, so... what's your point? Either way, where did the people in this wiki get the statement that Saver is stronger than Heaven's Hole anyway?

KamiYasha · Apr 25, 2016

Well, acording to the calc it was accepted as combat speed due to:

Nero and Archer did the same thing without a ship and it was attributed to the Origin power up. Wouldn't make sense for Origin Nero and Archer to be FTL and Gil mach 15 or so.

or something like that.

F/SN Gil =/= Mythical Formal Wear Gil.

About the durability, i already specify above why is like that.

Reppuzan · Apr 25, 2016

1) In this video Gil appears on the Near Side. I can't read the Japanese, but he also clearly interjects during the deletion scene.

2) Saver is a full blown Divine Spirit and a Bodhisvatta who described as being capable of governing a Solar System with his power.

This one has a source. Cite note 7.

AkatsukiChurch · Apr 25, 2016

KamiYasha said:
Well, acording to the calc it was accepted as combat speed due to:
Nero and Archer did the same thing without a ship and it was attributed to the Origin power up. Wouldn't make sense for Origin Nero and Archer to be FTL and Gil mach 15 or so.

or something like that.
F/SN Gil =/= Mythical Formal Wear Gil.

About the durability, i already specify above why is like that.

Source for Nero and Archer doing it?

I'm assuming you're referring to him getting one shotted by Excalibur? Doesn't matter if it's F/SN or Mythical Formal Wear Gil, his durability rank only goes from C to B, which is still lower than Berserker's, who Illya said wouldn't tank, and would get his remaining 5 lives shaved off if he was hit by Excalibur at full strength.

Reppuzan · Apr 25, 2016

It's in the same calc...

Stats are hardly relevant in Fate/Extra. Karna got his Luck listed at A+ for having Jinako as a Master even though his actual stat was still E. Francis Drake has EX Rank luck despite being paired with Shinji Matou. Caster has E Rank durability but took attacks from Nero, Archer, and Tamamo and engaged effectively in close combat despite having E Rank Strength.

AkatsukiChurch · Apr 25, 2016

Reppuzan said:
1) In this video Gil appears on the Near Side. I can't read the Japanese, but he also clearly interjects during the deletion scene.
2) Saver is a full blown Divine Spirit and a Bodhisvatta who described as being capable of governing a Solar System with his power.

This one has a source. Cite note 7.

1) What's that supposed to prove?

2) Divine Spirits can't be summoned as Servants, he's clearly not at his peak as a Divine Spirit.

I never questioned him being able to manage on the scale of a whole Solar System. What are you trying to prove here?

Reppuzan · Apr 25, 2016

1) He did beat Saver, that's all I can say for certain.

2) It's not such an outlier or game mechanics if he can beat another person who is at least aas strong as Kiara. Considering the fact that Gil watched the deletion scene, it's plausible to think that he defeated Saver.

KamiYasha · Apr 25, 2016

AkatsukiChurch said:
Doesn't matter if it's F/SN or Mythical Formal Wear Gil, his durability rank only goes from C to B, which is still lower than Berserker's, who Illya said wouldn't tank, and would get his remaining 5 lives shaved off if he was hit by Excalibur at full strength.

The stats aren't the same value...

Holy Grail =/= Moon Cell

Is like saying that if Gil on Fate/Extra CCC has B on speed (MFTL+) and Lancer from Fate/Zero has an A+ he should be higher than Mythical Formal Wear Gil.

LOL, no.

AkatsukiChurch · Apr 25, 2016

Reppuzan said:
It's in the same calc...
Stats are hardly relevant in Fate/Extra. Karna got his Luck listed at A+ for having Jinako as a Master even though his actual stat was still E. Francis Drake has EX Rank luck despite being paired with Shinji Matou. Caster has E Rank durability but took attacks from Nero, Archer, and Tamamo and engaged effectively in close combat despite having E Rank Strength.

What's in the same calc?

Relevant to game mechanics? Of course not. To canon? Yes, it is. Luck varies depending on the compatibility of the personalities of both Servant and Master, not how much Mana they provide, there's a reason why Shirou's Saber has a much higher stat than Kiritsugu's or Saber Alter (reminder that Sakura had trillions of magical energy units to provide Saber Alter with), either way, I don't see how that makes the stats irrelevant even if they shouldn't have those ranks (which I believe is what you're trying to imply, even though it's not true? Source for Caster tanking their attacks outside of gameplay? Also, which Caster are we referring to?

AkatsukiChurch · Apr 25, 2016

KamiYasha said:
AkatsukiChurch said:

Doesn't matter if it's F/SN or Mythical Formal Wear Gil, his durability rank only goes from C to B, which is still lower than Berserker's, who Illya said wouldn't tank, and would get his remaining 5 lives shaved off if he was hit by Excalibur at full strength.

Click to expand...

The stats aren't the same value...
Holy Grail =/= Moon Cell

Is like saying that if Gil on Fate/Extra CCC has B on speed (MFTL+) and Lancer from Fate/Zero has an A+ he should be higher than Mythical Formal Wear Gil.

LOL, no.

Why exactly would the stats be measured differently? Moon Cell isn't an excuse.

That's the point, he doesn't have MFTL+ speed, not via his own footspeed, at least.

AkatsukiChurch · Apr 25, 2016

Reppuzan said:
1) He did beat Saver, that's all I can say for certain.
2) It's not such an outlier or game mechanics if he can beat another person who is at least aas strong as Kiara. Considering the fact that Gil watched the deletion scene, it's plausible to think that he defeated Saver.

1)Ok, so what?

2) Whether he can beat someone stronger/equal (I'm still waiting for the source that states that Saver > or = Kiara, btw) or not is irrelevant to his durability. DC? Perhaps. Durability? Not unless there's any evidence he took any of the strongest hits.

KamiYasha · Apr 25, 2016

You were saying that the stats are almost the same...

Mythical Formal Wear is their "heroic form" the closest to their peak.

Nor the Giral or the Moon Cell can make them as powerful as their were when they were alive.

Also, diferent Grial, diferent stats.

is like saying that Fate/Prototype characters that are MSH... if other character has the same stat of agility in other Grail War doesn't mean that he/she is MSH.

PhantasmalGreatsword · Apr 25, 2016

I always wonder why Kiara's Attack Potency is planet level.

I mean, her range can be planetary considering her noble phantasm is about soul manipulation, but why attack potency? It's not about destruction.

AkatsukiChurch · Apr 25, 2016

KamiYasha said:
You were saying that the stats are almost the same...
Mythical Formal Wear is their "heroic form" the closest to they peak.

Nor the Giral or the Moon Cell can make them as powerful as their were when they where alive.

Also, diferent Grial, diferent stats.

is like saying that Fate/Prototype characters that are MSH... if other character has the same stat of agility in other Grail War doesn't mean that he/she is MSH.

Doesn't matter.

Never said they can...?

Ehh what? The stats are how the Throne of Heroes recorded them, the Grail/Moon Cell only summons the Heroic Spirits from the Throne of Heroes, so the values of the ranks are the same. What can happen is the stat's ranks to be decreased if the Grail isn't powerful enough to summon them, or if the Master doesn't provide a decent amount of mana, but that doesn't diminish the stat rank's values, only the ranks themselves. For example, Saber got a few ranks down with Shirou as a Master (like, her Strength stat with Rin as a Master is A, while with Shirou is B) due to him not having the means to provide her mana, but if she was summoned in the Moon Cell, and if her stat was an A, A in the Moon Cell would be the same value as if she was summoned in the Fuyuki Grail War with an A due to both summoning Servants from the Throne of Heroes.

Prototype is an early retconned work (e.g. instead of having Ea, Gil has a bow called Enki, King Arthur is a man, the Holy Grail War took place in Tokyo, even though it's been stated over and over again that the only place in Japan where a HGW can take place is Fuyuki, etc.)

Promestein · Apr 25, 2016

PhantasmalGreatsword said:
I always wonder why Kiara's Attack Potency is planet level.

I mean, her range can be planetary considering her noble phantasm is about soul manipulation, but why attack potency? It's not about destruction.

Kiara literally becomes larger then the planet.

That's why.

PhantasmalGreatsword · Apr 25, 2016

Ok do you really think this is lager than earth? Kiara becoming larger than the planet is representaion. Its real attack is making a hole even smaller than Gilgamesh.

KamiYasha · Apr 25, 2016

AkatsukiChurch said:
Doesn't matter.

your logic amazes me...

Every sigle War or whatever has a diferent system. Following your logic is like saying Fate/Proto stats = Fate/stay night stats = Fate/Extra stats = Fate/grand order stats...

Which is not.

This thread isn't going go anywhere at this rate.

AkatsukiChurch · Apr 25, 2016

KamiYasha said:
AkatsukiChurch said:

Doesn't matter.

Click to expand...

your logic amazes me...
Every sigle War or whatever has a diferent system. Following your logic is like saying Fate/Proto stats = Fate/stay night stats = Fate/Extra stats = Fate/grand order stats...

Which is not.

This thread isn't going go anywhere at this rate.

That quote was expanded upon later in the post (just look at the biggest paragraph), annd yet you completely ignored it.

Literally all of this has already been addressed and you ignored it.

KamiYasha · Apr 25, 2016

Nope. i already read everything.

You were still saying that all of the Wars (or whatever) stats are equal. Which is not like that.

AkatsukiChurch · Apr 25, 2016

...They all summon Servants directly from the Throne of Heroes, which is where both the Heroic Spirits (which are summoned as Servants) and their stats are recorded, therefore A = A, B = B, etc. no matter the HGW. "It's not like that" isn't a counter argument.

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