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Illumina major downgrade

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The_real_cal_howard

The_real_cal_howard

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Someone was kind enough to link the entirety of the Sonic Shuffle cutscenes and I have major problems with like...everything on her profile.

AP
For one, all the dreams are explicitly 3D in the 4D Maginaryworld. It's not a collection of Low 2-C universes. Furthermore, it's not the dreams of every individual. An individual dream is a collection of dreams. The dream to be one with nature, the dream to find adventure, the dream of freedom, etc. And all of them don't have a single stitch of evidence being Low 2-C in size. Most of them are 4-C, 4-A at best.

Also they're not talking about actual dreams, like I dreamt that I was on a date with Ariana Grande but I was a gorilla or something. The whole point of the game has dreams mean aspirations. Dreams that you can make come true. So even if everything I said above was wrong, it would not be at that level of 2-B.

All in all, Illumina should be Low 2-C.

Abstract Existence/Non-Corporeality
Nothing shows them being type 1 abstracts. Void is the embodiment of anger and the like, but as a type 3. Void is hit by normal things. Lumina shows nothing. Illumina is on screen for all of twenty seconds. Same with non-corporeality as neither her nor her iterations show it.

Void Manipulation
It comes from scaling from Void, who doesn't ever show this. He doesn't erase Maginaryworld naturally. He corrupts it and over time it's eventually disappear. The most he does is like, freeze stuff, though he put a pocket dimension inside a plane.

Time Manipulation
Never once shows any facet of it.

Concept Manipulation
She doesn't have it but her Archie counterpart does, who also has never shown such a thing.
 
Imma probably agree with Cal, unless there is context missing or something.
 
Oh damn you know what I just thought about. This may decrease the AP for Archie Sonic.

That's a huge maybe though, take it with a grain of salt people I'm not that knowledgeable on Archie.
 
Well, if its the same in the Archie about Ilumina they would still be 2-A from Master Mogul capable destroying every realities in existence which are infinite.
 
I mean, they'd still be 2-A. It's just that quote of Ian Flynn saying the CE are the same pre Harmony and post Harmony as well as no explicit statement or evidence of any of the transformations being trillions of times stronger than before and still being inferior to the Master Emersld despite the conjoining means that we made too much of an assumption with their AP.


Btw, this came from Foneybone, not me.
 
@Cal That WoG is faulty and Maverick's even stated reasons as to why them not increasing in power dye to Great Harmony is false. Nothing about Archie 2-As have changed, althought the Master Emerald situation does need tonbe addressed. It'll need a seperate thread if you're so adamant about it, because that is definitely CRT-worthy.
 
Alright.

AP:

The worlds are not 3D, that's only when you go inside them. Illumina's dream world is called "Fourth Dimension Space." It is the world where all dreams are stored. The other worlds exist separately, or in parallel with one another, much akin to a representation of the multiverse. So yes, Maginaryworld is a 2-B structure.

Abstract Existence/Non-Corporeal:

Don't want to spend much time typing it all up, so I'll link to a thread on my wall where it was discussed. Also don't use the fight against the base cast, it's an extreme case of outlier/PIS.

Void Manipulation:

Void corrupts Maginaryworld and will turn it into nothingness just by existing. That's pretty self-explanatory.

Time Manipulation:

This one I actually agree with. I wouldn't mind removing it.

Conceptual Manipulation:

My response is in the same thread I linked under Abstract Existence/Non-Corporeal.
 
Zamasu Chan said:
Oh damn you know what I just thought about. This may decrease the AP for Archie Sonic.

That's a huge maybe though, take it with a grain of salt people I'm not that knowledgeable on Archie.
Click to expand...
Nah, it's even more blatant in Archie.

The Precioustone supports the existence of extra-dimensional worlds.
 
"The worlds are not 3D, that's only when you go inside them. Illumina's dream world is called "Fourth Dimension Space." It is the world where all dreams are stored. The other worlds exist separately, or in parallel with one another, much akin to a representation of the multiverse. So yes, Maginaryworld is a 2-B structure."

Source? So the world itself is called Fourth Dimension Space, couldn't that be used as an argument against your point though? If she created a space literally named 'Fourth Dimension Space', then right off the bat they're not using the accurate definition of dimension. Here they're using the fictional definition of dimension as an alt. world or realm, rather than the geometric one. To give more creedence to this issue, she apparently dreamed it all up. So its probably not the actual geometric '4th dimension' as it seems to imply. So this world stores the other worlds, which are shown smaller than the Sonic characters normally. It is very similar to the definition of the multiverse, but there are 9 types of multiverses. Some don't actually seperate via time space either and they're only stated to be seperate worlds never seperate timelines.

A similar example I can think of is the Mirror Witch for Puella Magi Madoka Magica, she has countless barriers inside her true barrier, although the difference is that time does flow differently. Still, we don't treat it as 2-B because the size of the barriers themselves aren't shown to be Low 2-C individually (yet). So you would still need to prove different time-space and true timeline size.

Regarding Void Manip:

Got no issue, other than it should probably be stated to be non-combat applicable if it really takes so much time then.

Regarding AE type 1 and CM type 2:

That's... definitely not enough. Again using PMMM as an example (Cal finally sees the value in this verse lol) most of the doppel witches are representations of the magical girls' desires and emotions, and they don't get anything close to that.
 
Long story short, heavily disagree with everything AP wise form the OP. Maginaryworld is basically the exact same thing as Dream Depot from Mario. In fact, I don't see anything linked that states Dream Depot on any 2-B Mario character's profiles is 2-B in size, yet absolutely nobody has questioned that (Though I may just be missing something, that seems like a REALLY important thing to link, even if it is "common sense" or some bull like that).

Why have completely different standards for different verses that arn't under special rules? Unless somebody can link some difinitive proof that every dream in the Dream Depot is a universe (Which I have yet to find on the profiles, the single most important place to put them), then this CRT effects the Dream Depot just as much as it effects Maginaryworld.

Simply being countless universes is 4D since each have their own time, also. Weather or not it being called the 4th Dimension is accurate dosn't really matter, because time itself is inheritly 4D, and either time passes in Maginaryworld or Sonic gets an infinite speed outlier, and the latter seems really biased towards Sonic and making baseless assumptions for the sake of preventing 2-B Sonic.

Neuteral on ability removals
 
If time passes in Maginary world, then it kinda goes against the dimension itself being time (Ie the Fourth Dimension). Also how does time passing in Maginaryworld prove its 4D?

They have their own time? When was that stated?
 
@SomebodyData

It doesn't store the other worlds. It stores dreams, with the dreams then becoming worlds of their own. Rather, it is one of the many worlds inside of Maginaryworld. Dimension is being referred to as a universe (in Sonic dimensions = universes). They aren't smaller than the Sonic characters since the characters can go inside of them.

Can the desires and emotions of everyone exist without doppels though?
 
Adding to what Shadow just said, if every individual dream is a universe, all this 4D talk means jack diddly squat.
 
Oh, thanks for clarifing but doesn't that also go against the idea that this is some kind of dream multiverse?

Just because they use one definition for dimension for most games doesn't mean they stick to it in every game with different writers and plots. But regardless... that's my point isn't it? You remove the geometric meaning and then you get Low 2-C instead of 2-B anyways.

Yeah, that's how pocket realities tend to work.

What do you mean? Like physical destruction? Sure. But anything beyond that would result in unknown territory.

Not to mention it sounds like the reason the negative aspects of dreams would end would be because Void was originally a part of the stone, not because Void by itself is the actual form of bad aspects in dreams.

@Smashor See my second part, unless these universes have seperate space-times it doesn't mean much. Something similar to how we treat DB.
 
@Smashor See my second part, unless these universes have seperate space-times it doesn't mean much. Something similar to how we treat DB.

We're shown seperate space but never time.
 
@SomebodyData

Shuffle isn't an exception though. It's even stated Maginaryworld is created from the dreams of people from other dimensions.

Void is the negative half of Illumina, and Illumina created the Precioustone. Illumina was split in half and Lumina lost her memories until she merged back together with Void.
 
Unfortunately I don't know too much about Sonic Shuffle. But I'd assume they have different day-night cycles or something like that.

Also nobody's linked evidence to Dreams in Dream Depot being universes either, so that means this discussion effects Mario 2-Bs as well untill proven otherwise since Dream Depot and Maginaryworld are fundamentally pretty similar.
 
@Shadow I must have missed that part, mind linking it?

"Void...he was probably part of the Precioustone. He was part of a feeling that is necessary for dreams to come true."

^You even state that was the reason behind that in the very thread you linked.

@Smashor

You mean likes it day in one world and night in the other? I'm not sure how to tell you this but different spaces even in the same world can be in different day periods at the same time.

I'm sorry, but that's an argument here how? I don't even participate in the Mario context, ignoring the fact that its kinda derailement here.
 
@Data

Yeah I got nothing. I never played Sonic Shuffle.

Basically, this CRT will likely decide our standards for dream multiverses. Maybe it's better for another thread but there's nothing on 2-B Mario or any other 2-B Mario character's profile that proves each dream in Dream Depot is a universe, meaning it'd likely auto-default to what we decide here.
 
For the record, even if Shadow's right, then speed would be downgraded anyway. And it would further prove that the dreams are full sized of all these smaller pocket dimensions are inside a single universe. That's also something that's never addressed. Nobody has addressed that the dreams are full on universes as they're never called or shown to be so.

Fully expected someone to bring up Mario here lol. I was just wondering who. If Mario gets downgraded due to this, fine. As staff my duty is to downgrade things I see as incorrect anyway. The difference between Mario and Sonic here is that Mario uses definition 1, Sonic uses definition 2.

There can't be an outlier if there's no feat to begin with.
 
@Somebody Data

Yeah it was stated in this scene.

There was other quotes posted but this one I think does it best.

"Void: No one can deny me... When they feel lonely and scared and can't face it anymore. Everyone dreams. They escape into a dream. That's why I created the dream... The Precioustone too..."
 
For the Mario and Sonic thing, how and why does that matter? Also, where's the proof for that? You just linked that without any proof as to why that is.
 
@Smashor

Ah I see. Tbh I just thought we always treated dream worlds/multiverses as I did now.

@Cal

Yeah there is that too.
 
@Data

And what is the proof to that? Cal still has yet to provide proof that dreams in Mario and Sonic are different in any way at all.

@Cal

Being an Admin dosn't mean that your word is law.
 
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