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Saber Diarmuid vs Sakura Saber

Ooh, this is a good one.

Diarmuid: Diarmuid can stat amp his speed to make up for the slight difference, but Sakura Saber has Shukuchi, so that probably balances out and maintains her slight advantage. Has a significant strength advantage.

Okita: Okita is faster and has Shukuchi, but that isn't accounting for Mana Leaping so she probably only edges out with her teleportation. Likely has the skill advantage, which is further supported by Eye of the Mind.

Both oneshot with NPs.

If Mana Burst (Leap) can really equalize things with Shukuchi and Sakura's agility, then I'd say inconclusive.

If not, then Sakura (very high-diff) for slightly superior mobility and skill advantage to counter Diarmuid's strength.
 
Burst Leep apparently makes him so fast that other servants cannot comprehend his speed, so I would say it should keep up with it.

Also, don't forget, his fate stuff starts as soon as he draws his sword
 
It may let her react or respond, but not perceive it

When he draws his sword, he is guaranteed victory, or at least guaranteed to not have defeat. Although, as we know from the Kojiro vs Musashi fight, a multi-slashing technique can bypass stuff like this
 
Should be relatively even with Diarmuid leaping all over the place while Okita dashes about. The biggest deciding factor for me is when two are roughly equal, then it becomes a battle of attrition which Okita isn't winning.

Also doesn't hurt that Death and Fate Manipulation are abilities that Moralltach has, and Diarmuid has thrown off someone else with Eye of the Mind (False) before.

Imo, Diarmuid.
 
Saber Diarmuid's fate manip with Moralltach sounds way too vague. In the same vein as Excalibur "promising victory" yet never actually guaranteeing that she wins via fate manipulation; limited or otherwise.

If there are actual scans/mats describing it in more detail than what's on his profile, then it would be appreciated.
 
Here's what I got on it.

  • It's a weapon from Mannanan, the god who gave Fragarach to Lugh.
  • Activating Moralltach reenacts Mannanan's legs (3 legged wheel of fire that barrels down the hillsides) that transforms it into 3 blades.
  • Going by the NP animation, it's 3 simultaneous strikes with 2 blades.
 
Solacis said:
Saber Diarmuid's fate manip with Moralltach sounds way too vague. In the same vein as Excalibur "promising victory" yet never actually guaranteeing that she wins via fate manipulation; limited or otherwise.
If there are actual scans/mats describing it in more detail than what's on his profile, then it would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
I mean, his sword straight up comes from a God of victory and is stated to grant him victory as soon as it is drawn. The guides even state that it controls destiny. I can give you some of the guide statements if you want. I will say that they are almost mark for mark on his profile what comes from the guides
 
Yeah, but what does it do? Does it manipulate probability? Does it warp reality? Does it weaken the opponent and/or boost his stats? Does it just boost his LCK or lower his opponent's? Scathach is another embodiment of victory, yet she's jobbed before. Here's an exaggeration: If it actually makes it so that Diarmuid cannot lose, does not mean he can beat Goetia?

It says "guarantees victory" but I ask "to what extent?"

The method isn't specified, so it's hard to really say what counters it, and makes it easy to wank/downplay. Regardless of the outcome of the match, there's going to be that one niggling feeling that we might be misunderstanding just what it actually does, and the reasons for his win/loss will be on varying levels of shaky unless it's a stomp.

Currently, I don't even understand how Sandanzuki and Tsubame Gaeshi are supposed to be good against Moralltach like you said earlier, since the way Moralltach works is so vaguely described. I'm not for or against this match or the existence of S!Diarmuid's profile here, but as you can probably tell, this bothers me.
 
Its fate Manip, as it controls destiny. I thought I was clear about that. The latter ability is death manip. In a different scan that I don't have access to, it goes over the method of the death manip. Something about it cutting the distinction between life and death, but that is just from word of mouth.

""Surge of Fury"

Rank: B

Classification: Anti-Unit

Range: 1~20

Biggest target: 1 Person

Móralltach

If we were to pick the strongest among the many weapons Diarmuid Ua Duibhne weilds, it could only be this fearsome demonic sword.

A blow bringing certain death, another certain victory.

Unsheathing the demonic sword Diarmuid is gifted with certain victory, bringing defeat and death to the opponents.
this?
'A blow bringing certain death, another certain victory.
Unsheathing the demonic sword Diarmuid is gifted with certain victory, bringing defeat and death to the opponents.'
ÚüïÕæ¢ÒéÆÒééµôìÒéïÒüîÕªéÒüìÚ¡öÕëúÒâóÒâ®Òâ╗Òâ½Òé┐Òü»ÒÇüÒé▒Òâ½ÒâêÒü½ÒüèÒüæÒéïµÁÀÒü¿þò░þòîÒü«þÑ×Òâ×ÒâèÒâèÒâ│Òü½ÒéêÒüúÒüªµÄêÒüæÒéëÒéîÒüƒÒÇéÒâ×ÒâèÒâèÒâ│ÒüôÒüØÒü»Õñ¬ÚÖ¢þÑ×Òâ½Òâ╝Òü½Õ«ØÕàÀÒâòÒâ®Òé¼Òâ®ÒââÒé»þ¡ëÒéÆõ©ÄÒüêÒüƒþÑ׵ǺÒüºÒüéÒéèÒÇüµò░ÕñÜÒüÅÒü«Õ«ØÕàÀÒéƵëǵ£ëÒÇüµÅÉõ¥øÒüÖÒéïÕ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüºÒüéÒüúÒüƒÒÇé

The demonic sword Moralltach, which can almost control even destiny, was awarded to him by the Celtic god of of the sea and underworld Manannán. Manannán is for sure the deity who gave the Noble Phantasm Fragarach to the sun god Lugh, he possessed many Noble Phantasms, he was a being who donates."
 
Solacis said:
It says "guarantees victory" but I ask "to what extent?"
The method isn't specified, so it's hard to really say what counters it, and makes it easy to wank/downplay. Regardless of the outcome of the match, there's going to be that one niggling feeling that we might be misunderstanding just what it actually does, and the reasons for his win/loss will be on varying levels of shaky unless it's a stomp.

Currently, I don't even understand how Sandanzuki and Tsubame Gaeshi are supposed to be good against Moralltach like you said earlier, since the way Moralltach works is so vaguely described. I'm not for or against this match or the existence of S!Diarmuid's profile here, but as you can probably tell, this bothers me.
Click to expand...
Up until you hit authority, as that is the point where other absolute divine otherwise NLF powers in the nasuverse hit their limit. It comes from a Sea and Underworld God, so someone with more authority than that.

Nah, its pretty ******* clear that it works by controlling destiny and fate.

Because those powers have already worked against powers like his. Musashi can eliminate possibilities into only one outcome, but he can work around that via refraction.
 
So basically, as long as Sarmuid's against someone without superior authority to Manannan, he's guaranteed to win? That's kind of ridiculous.

Also, Tsubame Gaeshi is dimensional refraction while Sandanzuki is collapsed causality. How do they compare besides being "awesome sword techniques that break physics"?
 
Solacis said:
So basically, as long as Sarmuid's against someone without superior authority to Manannan, he's guaranteed to win? That's kind of ridiculous.
Also, Tsubame Gaeshi is dimensional refraction while Sandanzuki is collapsed causality. How do they compare besides being "awesome sword techniques that break physics"?
Click to expand...
Yeah lol. It is ******* broken. It kinda makes more sense why he lost a bunch of his skills that he had as a Lancer to try to balance him out like at all

Because both work by changing possibility, whether that be via Dimensional Refraction or Causality fuckery. I don't know why multiplying your sword blades across dimensions counter acts fate hax specifically, but Nasuverse has their standards on this kind of thing. The point is, both are creating or focusing an outcome
 
Never been stated that you need Authority to fight Diarmuid. Plus I dunno why you are trying to scale Manannán's power and Authority to Mortalltach.

Considering that Fragarach and Gae Bolg are both Celtic Nps with curses that affect destiny. It's likely that Moralltach is some kind of curse as Fragarach also comes from Manannán and it even has a superior rank.
 
No, it's not. But he asked for a limit, and that's where the nasuverse usually draws it. Bullshit divine constructs and noble Phantasm usually hit their limit there

That's a lot of interpretation and jumping jax where there really doesnt need to be any. It says right there on the box that it controls fate. Fragarach and Gae Bolg both say on the box that they work by controlling causality and/or time. Diarmuid's sword says right on the box that it controls destiny. When a character statement or guide book rolls up with them saying that it ***** with time, or causality, or space, or probability, or dental floss to always secure its wielder victory, then we can talk about it being something other than fate manip. I do agree that it may potentially be a curse for his death manip tho, but that is just because we dont know what it comes from and have no scans to indicate what it may be
 
So you go with the highest limit possible when even nps like Gae Bolg and Fragarach that affect the same thing can be overcome without authorities. Plus bullshit Divine Constructs have their own Authorities so the line isn't even drawn there, see Loptr completely curbstomping Gods.

Not really. I'm not saying that they don't do that? I'm saying that they do it through their curses. Why would Moralltach be any different when it's weaker than Fragarach and it was made by the same God? I'm not saying that Moralltach isn't some kind of Fate Manipulation, it's just that it's likely some kind of curse that may be overcome depending on how it works.
 
Hell nah. I was drawing the absolute upper limit outside of hard counters, which is a given. If someone has the capacity to deal with fate manip, then if is a given that they would be able to deal with the sword. Note that even in this very thread I applied other inevitabilities in a mostly equal value. The issue with this sword is that the standard servant luck save probably wouldnt work until you hit EX, because unlike something like Zabaniya or Gae Bolg, where they are countering death hax or causality hax with minor fate hax, here they are trying to counter fate hax with... worse fate hax. See the issue?

The first issue is that not all Celtic NP are cursed based last I checked. The other issue is that this sword does it straight from when it is drawn, as apposed to on activation. If you are just guessing that its probably a curse then that's fine, but obviously dont draw limits like that
 
The problem is that the Fate series has never had abilities that specifically deal in fate manipulation, ironically enough. That's why I consider it vague. There's no precedent for anyone resisting direct fate manipulation. Hell, we don't even know how the Nasuverse treats fate manipulation as a mechanic. The closest thing we have to it is Musashi's mystic eye, but that's at least explained mechanically in detail. The only other instance is the "Camelot is destined to fall" thing, where no matter what Arturia does, Camelot will always fall in the end. But that can be chalked up to the fact that the World made it that way and it's the equivalent of not questioning an all-powerful deity because being all-powerful is kind of their thing.

Honestly, we should have waited for the material books to go into further detail like we did for Solomon's ten rings before making Saber Diarmuid's profile. There's nothing concrete to go off of besides "this sword has passive fate hax that guarantees that he wins" with no explanation of how said fate hax actually works. Like "a spear that never misses", for example. Is it conceptually made to never miss? Does it teleport inside the target? Does it reverse causality? Does it have homing properties? Things like that. Explanations. Mechanics.

As it is right now, it's a gamebreaking ability with no existing counters or ways to defend against it. Are you telling me Diarmuid can beat Alcides just because the former is destined to win and the latter has no way to deal with the fate manipulation? That if Arturia unleashed Excaliblast right in his face just as Diarmuid drew Moralltach, that Diarmuid would not only survive, but win, just because lol!destiny is on his side? It's stupid.
 
I mean I was in favor of waiting. I had even called dibs, but someone got some translations early and wanted to post their rough draft before I got on the train and released a profile for him. I would say it is simple, and a lack of mechanics does not necessarily make it any less vaild. I will say that the one counter that comes to mind is EX rank luck. People who's power is basically to have battles go in their favor, and even if they lose, they will survive and win. Some shit like that


Not to nip pick, but he could probably get out of dodge for Exaclibur with his leap. He could also probably take Alchides with a well timed leap as well. I do get your point tho
 
Solacis said:
Are you telling me Diarmuid can beat Alcides just because the former is destined to win and the latter has no way to deal with the fate manipulation? That if Arturia unleashed Excaliblast right in his face just as Diarmuid drew Moralltach, that Diarmuid would not only survive, but win, just because lol!destiny is on his side? It's stupid.
Click to expand...
From what I'm aware of high ranked luck lets you break out of Fate manip in the Nasuverse.
 
@Dargoo

not fate manip, but inevitabilities. This is because they all have their own fate manip, but Saber has a stronger fate manip on his side. That's the issue
 
Sabermuid FRA. Okita's D rank luck won't save her from the Fate Manip, especially since it seems on par with Gae Bolg from pure description.

Now if only I could use that while I actually played the game.
 
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