Goku upgrade (SPOILERS)

Zamasu_Chan · Jan 20, 2019

I think ssg Goku should have a likely low 2-C rating.

Reasons

1. The second Broly's eyes turn Green he's able to tank a punch from ssg Vegeta, who was likely suppressed. Vegeta is only able to outmaneuver Broly and not really damage him.

2. Before Vegeta starts taking things serious, Broly powers up fully to Ikari mode and fights Goku, who's able to do nothing in base form and outmaneuver Broly in his ssj form, like Vegeta. However Goku is able to barely catch a punch from Ikari Broly.

3. Goku then realizes that he has to go ssg and when does, he starts playing with Broly and paralyzes him.

4. Broly powers up again, this time growing bigger and he punches Goku but he tanks it then throws Broly to the ground. Broly then powers up again then stomps Goku.

This is enough evidence for at least 3-A likely low 2-C ssg Goku

Minghaoly_god · Jan 20, 2019

Following just incase.

CryoTheMayo · Jan 21, 2019

Not to derail but if this is argued correctly then we may have Vegeta and Frieza at at least 3-A likely Low 2-C in their base forms. (Albeit Vegeta was depicted as performing worse against Broly in SSG than Goku in SS so...).

Following to watch the ensuing shitstorm.

Zamasu_Chan · Jan 21, 2019

How would Vegeta be low 2-C?

CryoTheMayo · Jan 21, 2019

Vegeta was sparring with Goku in their base forms at the start of the film and we see them sparring in Blue at the end of Super. That would be the argument for base Vegeta scaling to at least 3-A or Low 2-C if Goku can be argued to be Low 2-C in base.

Therefir · Jan 21, 2019

I'm not sure how this makes base Goku Low 2-C, both 17 and Golden Frieza were 3-A in the Tournament of Power, and they're also weakened, ssg Vegeta is 3-A.

Zamasu_Chan · Jan 21, 2019

Golden Frieza and 17 were being overpowered by Jiren, though weakened it's possible he was low 2-C at the time. Goku even makes the barrier stronger by himself. Base Goku fight on par with a Broly that >>> SSG Vegeta.

BlackeJan · Jan 21, 2019

Yeah Wrathful Broly powered up vs SSG Goku and the letter was still staying in there and getting hits (at first Brolys punches only caused discomfort while SSG Vegeta knew that the Broly before that power up was gonna be extremely hard)

Though I do want to say that Base Goku vs Wrathul Broly...wasn't really that good. Base Goku was getting knocked around (though didn't even looked like he was taking serious damage) but hey though SSJ was doing a bit better then SSG Vegeta

EDIT: SSG Vegeta was blocking most of the time but wasn't really taking serious damage while the same thing is said for Base Goku but he also didn't look like he was taking damage

Therefir · Jan 21, 2019

Being stronger than 3-A characters is just 3-A, and base Goku scaling from 17 and Golden Frieza was rejected in other thread.

CryoTheMayo · Jan 21, 2019

The thing that debunks the base Goku vs Jiren argument is Frieza fighting on the same level as Goku against Jiren. The two of them were arguably equally damaged yet were performing at the same level against an enraged but heavily damaged Jiren.

It's interesting that SS Goku performed better than SSG Vegeta against Broly but that would still be 3-A. Albeit Goku Blue is Low 2-C and it's generally agreed upon that Blue would be 40-50x SSG so you would THINK SSG Goku and Vegeta should be treated as Low 2-C which, if we scale Vegeta to Low 2-C in Blue for fighting SS Broly, then base Goku should be Low 2-C for being stronger than SSG Vegeta in just Super Saiyan.

Goku Blue = Low 2-C

Godku = Low 2-C

Vegeta Blue = Low 2-C (scales for fighting SS Broly)

SS Goku > SSG Vegeta

SSG Vegeta scales to Low 2-C for Vegeta Blue being Low 2-C

Therefore Base Goku is Low 2-C.

But the thing that would debunk this is the claim made in the Frieza Low 2-C thread that there is no infinite distinction between 3-A and Low 2-C within the Dragon World.

Zamasu_Chan · Jan 21, 2019

It was rejected because it was possibly an outlier or PIS. The Broly movie and Toriyama's word just gives more evidence for at least 3-A possibly low 2-C.

BlackeJan · Jan 21, 2019

Don't forget that Final Form Frieza/ Golden Frieza was getting his butt cheeks clapped against LSSJ Broly for an hour and was STILL alive

Going by the movie and Toriyamas word, that would mean that yes I'm the last episode of the ToP arc, everything that happened could actually be legit

Zamasu_Chan · Jan 21, 2019

It was also an outlier for Frieza. Just because you're working together with someone doesn't mean you're on the same level as them.

John_Werner · Jan 21, 2019

Episode 123. Base Goku taked an attack from Jiren and Goku claimed:
"I've never been hit by such strong attack before". That means that from Goku's perspective, Jiren's last attack was stronger than others attacks from Jiren from the same episode.
SSB Goku (post second UI sign) taked many attacks from Jiren before. SSB Goku (post second UI sign) is low 2c tho

Mr_John_West · Jan 21, 2019

That whole Vegeta i catching up is maybe referring to him tryin to get MUI level

Maybe MUI has been retcon or Beerus has been retcon

Antvasima · Jan 21, 2019

At some point we may have to merge together the 3-A and Low 2-C tiers, since it seems uncommon that different fictions make a distinction between them, which creates awkward situations like this.

Anyway, you can use the Dragon Ball verse page and the Knowledgeable Members List to find staff members to ask to comment here.

Ronnijuro · Jan 21, 2019

That's only "filler" to have a 20 minutes episode lol.

Goku doesn't have any powerup in base mode in the tournament. His powerups are the new forms (incomplete UI, incomplete UI 2.0 and complete UI or the way you call it).

Magi_Hussie · Jan 21, 2019

@Antvasima

I don't think that is a very good idea and we shouldn't really resort to that anytime soon.

Zamasu_Chan · Jan 21, 2019

Magi Hussie said:
@Antvasima

I don't think that is a very good idea and we shouldn't really resort to that anytime soon.

I definitely agree with you, merging them isn't a good idea.

Antvasima · Jan 21, 2019

Okay. Well, I obviously wouldn't do so without an accepted staff discussion.

It is just that treating time as a geometric dimensions is technically quite questionable.

Zamasu_Chan · Jan 21, 2019

You know now that I think about it Ant-Sama May have a point. I don't really know of a fiction from the top of my head that makes a difference between 3-A and low 2-C. I'll have to find out more.

Omegas03 · Jan 21, 2019

I would call this fight an outlier, seriously. Goku was fighting Vegeta at the start at equal terms in Base form (and in the end of DBS both were fighting in SSJB). But now Base or SSJ Goku is somehow above SSJG Vegeta? doesn't really seem right to me, and Goku/Vegeta are almost always portrayed to be equal/close power-wise in DBS (barring UI or Vegeta's Rosat training at the Black-arc)

Antvasima · Jan 21, 2019

It seems like a writing mistake, yes.

Warren_Valion · Jan 21, 2019

Omegas03 said:
I would call this fight an outlier, seriously. Goku was fighting Vegeta at the start at equal terms in Base form (and in the end of DBS both were fighting in SSJB). But now Base or SSJ Goku is somehow above SSJG Vegeta? doesn't really seem right to me, and Goku/Vegeta are almost always portrayed to be equal/close power-wise in DBS (barring UI or Vegeta's Rosat training at the Black-arc)

Goku also fought Krillin in Super Saiyan Blue.

There is such a thing as holding back, you know.

Omegas03 · Jan 21, 2019

^That's way different, Goku would obviously hold back against Krillin who's a mere High 4-C character.

Goku and Vegeta in DBS have been always portrayed to be comparable barring UI. plus SSJB Vegeta was able to keep up with SSJB Goku when both were fighting SSJ Broly, both seemed to be equal at that moment. SSJ Goku being above SSJG Vegeta would make no sense in that case and can be easily be considered an outlier imo. if you also think Goku was holding back against Vegeta at the end of DBS, Vegeta would have no reason to be Low 2-C lol barring SSJBE.

Warren_Valion · Jan 21, 2019

It's not much different, it's a friendly spar.

I also don't see why them "always being comparable" in the past effects the present. We are looking at their current feats, not their previous ones.

And what? How were they shown to be equal? Because they both got stomped into the ground? That doesn't show them being equal, that shows Broly's superiority.

And wouldn't Vegeta still be Low 2-C as a Super Saiyan Blue if Goku is Low 2-C in base form?

BlackeJan · Jan 21, 2019

U guys r reading her way too much into it....Base Goku was getting slapped around from Broly and even his SSJ form was a tiny bit doing well. Even though Goku was getting hit, it looked like he wasn't even taking that much damage, just discomfort

Same thing is for Vegeta. In SSG he was blocking the time and hitting Broly but it wasn't doing any damage but even Vegeta wasnt taking damage from those attacks.

Someone said that Toriyama spoke in an interview that Vegeta is "desperately" trying to catch up to Goku

Warren_Valion · Jan 21, 2019

Every time Goku or Vegeta transformed, they temporarily were decisively beating up Broly, but Broly just adapted to their strength seconds later, making them pull out another transformation and then eventually fusion.

Zamasu_Chan · Jan 21, 2019

Wasn't Vegeta low 2-C when he first fought Jiren? He did better than a blue Goku that was low 2-C himself.

BlackeJan · Jan 21, 2019

The only thing I can say is that SSG Goku was doing better then SSG Vegeta since the Broly Goku was fighting was the same one Vegeta knew it was gonna be a really tough battle but yeah again Vegeta was just blocking the entire time and wasn't taking damage

The_2nd_Existential_Seed · Jan 21, 2019

I agree. You cannot deny the possibility that Goku was holding back against Vegeta. He does that in-canon a lot to enjoy the fight from his adversaries/rivals/opponents.

Literally the very statements saying that Vegeta is desperately trying to keep up with Goku. It wouldn't say that if Goku wasn't a lot higher than him currently , and add to the fact that Goku was stated to be near UIO 3rd [if not Complete Ultra Instinct due to what he says in the Broly Movie about reaching his peak of his strength when he knew about Complete Ultra Instinct which would imply he's closing in on it as well] when Vegeta has nothing proving that he has made such gains other than being > UIO 1st + potentially UIO 2nd in SSBE .

Zamasu_Chan · Jan 21, 2019

The 2nd Existential Seed said:
I agree. You cannot deny the possibility that Goku was holding back against Vegeta. He does that in-canon a lot to enjoy the fight from his adversaries/rivals/opponents.

Literally the very statements saying that Vegeta is desperately trying to keep up with Goku. It wouldn't say that if Goku wasn't a lot higher than him currently , and add to the fact that Goku was stated to be near UIO 3rd [if not Complete Ultra Instinct due to what he says in the Broly Movie about reaching his peak of his strength when he knew about Complete Ultra Instinct which would imply he's closing in on it as well] when Vegeta has nothing proving that he has made such gains other than being > UIO 1st + potentially UIO 2nd in SSBE .

Exactly, IMO calling it an outlier is just ignoring evidence.

SuperDragoon978 · Jan 21, 2019

Base Goku being not only Low 2-C but being above God Vegeta absolutely IS an outlier, though. Nothing in the movie suggested Goku was vastly above Vegeta to the point Vegeta could have gone SSG in their sparring match and Goku would still beat him without transforming. Vegeta catching up to Goku was never stated in the movie and is obviously referring to Ultra Instinct. The same statement claimed Goku was near or at the level of the GoDs and nothing suggests current SSB Goku is at that level if freaking Full Power SSJ Broly is maybe above Beerus.

You can't say "its not an outlier!" but then go around and say Base Freeza fighting Jiren as well as Base Goku is an outlier, especially after Freeza's Low 2-C upgrade. The only feats other feats Base Goku has in the movie is being stomped by wrathful Broly and requiring SSG to fight well against him, the same form Vegeta needed to block Broly's hits and come up relatively undamaged.

Goku and Vegeta have had two fights since the ToP, both of which they were shown as even in equal forms. The first battle has them in Super Saiyan Blue with no indication Goku was holding back to 0.1% of his strength or whatever to not curbstomp Vegeta. Both SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta do equally "well" against SSJ Broly as well. And you would think Vegeta would mention or be angry Goku was suddenly hundreds of times stronger than him. Lastly, if Base Goku was that strong he wouldn't be that impressed by initial Base Broly's strength.

Zamasu_Chan · Jan 21, 2019

I said it was an outlier for Frieza because he went from going slightly toe to toe with Jiren in Golden to trading blows with him in base. Goku got a Zenkai after UI.

AKM sama · Jan 21, 2019

Please don't bring the Jiren stuff up. It was discussed and rejected and it has no bearing on the Broly movie.

As for the movie itself, it's PIS for the fight to look cool. Not to mention the possibility that SSG Vegeta wasn't at his full when he was interrupted by Goku. Same Broly stomped base, SSJ and even SSG Goku. If we take small things like these so seriously then you'll end up with SSG Goku level SSJ Vegeta because of the fight with Anilaza (Goku was SSG and Vegeta was SSJ and both were performing equally).

Warren_Valion · Jan 21, 2019

"Nothing in the movie suggested Goku was vastly above Vegeta..."

Are you serious? The fight against Broly was what suggested this.

He did as well, if not better than God Vegeta in his base form against a Wrathful Broly. As Ikari Broly tanked God Vegeta's punches without flinching, but still has some back-and-forth between base Goku until Broly adapted and surpassed him at that level.

And saying that the quote was talking about Ultra Instinct is pure headcanon, especially Goku hasn't shown and has stated that he isn't capable of using Ultra Instinct.

Not to mention, Ultra Instinct isn't anywhere in this movie.

Again, Blue Goku also had a beam struggle with ******* Krillin, the only indication of Goku holding back in that fight being that Goku's opponent was Krillin.

Who's to say that Goku wasn't holding back in those spars?

And by doing "evenly well" against Broly, you mean that they both got stomped?

If Master Roshi also got stomped by Broly in that fight, would you consider him being equal to Goku or Vegeta or Frieza? No, you wouldn't. And so you shouldn't use it as a measure to try and prove Goku is = to Vegeta.

Vegeta isn't the same character he was in the Cell Saga, he doesn't always complain that Goku is his better when on screen, he has other things on his mind - like his family for instance. And even then, the material stated that Vegeta was "desperately trying to keep up with Goku".

And what? A random stranger having a power level comparable to one of the top five strongest beings in the universe would be shocking, especially considering how fast Broly improves. Even if he was below Goku's strength.

Magi_Hussie · Jan 21, 2019

@Antvasima Yea, I agree with you too on how questionable it really is when its misinterpreted to be the case in regards to DBS.

@Zamasu Same here.

@Warren These are some fair and reasonable points.

Zamasu_Chan · Jan 21, 2019

Magi Hussie said:
@Antvasima Yea, I agree with you too on how questionable it really is when its misinterpreted to be the case in regards to DBS.

@Zamasu Same here.

@Warren These are some fair and reasonable points.

Dragon Ball cosmology as a whole is confusing despite how simplistic the series is, but that should be discussed another time.

Zamasu_Chan · Jan 22, 2019

Rain-xix · Jan 22, 2019

is there a source for toriyama saying vegeta is desperately trying to keep with goku?

now that's an interesting quote to hear because by the end of dbs barring UI i thought they were pretty even.

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