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7-A Brackets Round 12

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Dargoo_Faust

Dargoo_Faust

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Pretty badass rendition of siegfried and fafnir from the new 348601861447613f0f2fc29b67182e31
Twelfth round of the 7-A brackets begins! The winner of the last round was Cobra.


Current Standings (A "-1" indicates a fighter was disqualified for whatever reasons)

The contenders for this round are Ren Tao, submitted by FateAlbane, and Saber Alter, submitted by ShiroyashaGinSan.

O.S. Super Bushin Ren is used. Excalibur Morgan is restricted. Speed is equalized. Battle takes place on the bridge in Fuyuki City.

Saber Alter -

Ren Tao - 7 (Monarch, Fate, Phoenix, Cal, Jack, Wok, Weekly)

Incon -

FSN Heavens Feel Film-Saber Alter (1)
Ren Tao
 
It's funny because Ren indeed has a fight in a bridge at some point in the Shaman Fight tournament right before his resurrection in this key.

Guess it's my turn, then. I should probably wait to see how deep Salter goes into those AP depths, but just in case, Yoh Asakura and Marco are the baselinish ones at this point. Horo Horo and Chocolove, albeit weaker were somewhat comparable. Their Spiritual Power (Horo Horo and Choco's) ammounted to 2000.

The Ren used here is post his Resurrection which added at least 50000 spiritual power to his 5721ish at the time so he should be sensibly above baseline (demonstrated by the fact that it took him a single casual attack to oneshot Marco).
5721
50 000Inc
 
@Zell

What abilities in particular helps her edge out here?
 
That's not a great reason.

Is what Ren uses even magic she can resist? It's more using ghost and soul power than prana or anything.

And honestly, he's materialising souls, that's more True Magic shit by nasu standards, not the sort of thing that Magic Resistance helps against from what I've heard.
 
@Zell Please wait until I actually explain the characters feats and abilities.

Saying better abilities and resistances doesn't count for much until then.
 
She can replenish mana via soul manipulation, she has precog, Regenerationn, immunity to modern weapons, teleportation, stat amplification, and magic resistance (I will say this is questionable, cause it all comes down to the magic she tanked, which some magic has soul manipulation just not much, plus all soul manipulators have at least some resistance to soul manipulation though more of an active battle as they're more fighting the soul powers of the person messing with their soul)
 
Now to cover on the matter of experience and Soul related stuff, a Ren that was much weaker at this point in the story witnessed the story of the GS (5.6 Billion years of it) and its souls and was unfazed by it (while every other character at the time fainted from mere exposition to it and others still were said to have died from as much as glancing at the GS). Ren instead went straight to it and kept looking at it, unfazed.

Soul1
Soul2
Also going for him in regards to experience is two things: The first is that Bason had over 500+ years of experience doing literally nothing but fighting against every kind of opponent prior to and during the course of the series, and Ren can fully tap into that experience in battle. Ren himself demonstrated to be no slouch in this department since he defeated his father who was channeling the experience of 2000+ years of every single soul in his lineage tied together. So while at first glance it may sound like Salter would sorely outclass him in battle experience and skill, he's actually an extremely good fighter in this regard as well.

Soul 3
Soul4
BasExp
BasExp2
 
I'm breaking Ren down little by little. I'll get to abilities in a jiffy. For the moment, stamina is up next.
 
Didn't Ren lose against his father the first time, and only one with help or am I remembering wrong.
 
ZellTemplar55 said:
She can replenish mana via soul manipulation, she has precog, Regenerationn, immunity to modern weapons, teleportation, stat amplification, and magic resistance (I will say this is questionable, cause it all comes down to the magic she tanked, which some magic has soul manipulation just not much, plus all soul manipulators have at least some resistance to soul manipulation though more of an active battle as they're more fighting the soul powers of the person messing with their soul)
Click to expand...
Soul manipulation needs her to eat his soul, which isn't combat applicable and by which point he's already dead.

He has similar precog.

Destroying her brain is enough to stop the Regenerationn

None of his weapons are modern or non-mysterious so she's immune to nothing of his.

IIRC she doesn't use teleportation in a fight.

Stat amplification ok.

Magic resistance isn't useful for reasons I explained. And manipulating souls doesn't grant resistance to soul manipulation.
 
In regards to Stamina: Ren's father who is much weaker than Ren in the key used in this match kept his oversoul going for years.

Ren himself, again in a weaker key fought an army of reanimated warriors, lost to his father, got imprisoned and tortured for 10 days straight then when he was released by Yoh the first thing that he went to do was get his rematch with that very same father.

So "very high" is actually an understatement of his durability. Also Oversoul by itself doesn't waste stamina fast, you actually have to keep busting it. Otherwise the Spiritual energy (unless it's shooting type like Horo Horo) maintains itself which means Ren can keep this fight going without tiring anytime soon as well. Since his weaker keys it was already stated that Ren's OS was the kind that you need to destroy for his Spiritual Energy to actually be wasted otherwise it keeps going. So coupling that with his other Stamina feats, this isn't being decided by him tiring out from wasting his power either.

OversoulDoesNotWaste
 
Ironically enough, Oversouls being spiritual in nature don't cast Shadows so Saber can't teleport through his attacks.

Also while people have been shown to tank OS attacks just fine, Oversouls have selective intangibility against defenses if they are not soul based in nature. Yoh once tried to block Eliza's blade which was weaker than Pailong that he had defeated but the OS phased through his defense and cut straight to his body.

OSBeyondMaterial
 
Servants should resist soul manip by virtue of being spiritual entities to begin with. Pulling out a servant's sould would equate to just tugging at his/her clothing.

Also I was told Ren Tao's soul manip isn't that potent and is mostly just for physical attacks, so this doesn't matter much anyways.
 
In regards to Fumon Tonkou, it might cancel out with her Precog depending on how good it is, I'm not sure. It should be noted that Ren should be technically weaker than Hao's underlings prior to his resurrection but he was having a clear advantage on them by reading the pulses of their energy and anticipating their every blow.

As for Ren's fighting method in this Key right prior to and post resurrection, there's not much mistery to it: It's reading the moves of others with FT and spamming AOE OS:Togenkyo.
Togenkyo
 
Dargoo Faust said:
Servants should resist soul manip by virtue of being spiritual entities to begin with. Pulling out a servant's sould would equate to just tugging at his/her clothing.
Also I was told Ren Tao's soul manip isn't that potent and is mostly just for physical attacks, so this doesn't matter much anyways.
Click to expand...
This is true. That would also mean that Dantes Soul Manip is even more fire

kek
 
Dargoo Faust said:
Servants should resist soul manip by virtue of being spiritual entities to begin with. Pulling out a servant's sould would equate to just tugging at his/her clothing.
Click to expand...
I've made this argument on Fate v Masada threads and it was strongly contested.

Something about servants not actually being physical souls and just being spiritual cores stuck in a physical container.
 
They don't have a "physical container" though.

They're literally just spirits. It's like arguing a soulhax user can pull the soul out of a ghost.
 
Can she still stop it if said weapons just keep sprouting from under her and from every angle at once, though?
 
Dargoo Faust said:
They don't have a "physical container" though.
They're literally just spirits. It's like arguing a soulhax user can pull the soul out of a ghost.
Click to expand...
Not what I've heard.

Look at the Enkidu vs Rei match for details.
 
Also regen is not going to be a problem since last time Ren was faced with a guy who could regen from his blood and teleport he simple resorted to pulverizing whatever he striked with with his Oversoul strikes.

Pulverize1
Pulverize2
 
Dargoo Faust said:
They don't have a "physical container" though.
They're literally just spirits. It's like arguing a soulhax user can pull the soul out of a ghost.
Click to expand...
I did more research on it

Servants are spirits that manifest in a physical body composed of magical energy.

Their entire body is not their soul.
 
FateAlbane said:
Also regen is not going to be a problem since last time Ren was faced with a guy who could regen from his blood and teleport he simple resorted to pulverizing whatever he striked with with his Oversoul strikes.
Click to expand...
Yes it's very much gonna be a problem, it's not that simple, plus she has various other abilities to go along with that, if he was a good bit more powerful then maybe it would, but he isn't
 
Finally, while this Ren doesn't have the True Flight to freely maneuver everywhere like with the OS spirit of Thunder, he can still fly to an extent by using his OS as Bason. So that's another thing for him.

I think this pretty much covers the most important things for Ren here.

I do believe Ren can pull a win here by spamming the hell out of Togenkyo since unlike what his profile would have someone believe out of his stamine, he is actually *very* trigger happy with spamming that in this key.
 
To be honest Servants resisting soul manip in this context of this fight doesn't really matter as Ren Tao's brand of it isnt' the traditional "lol ur soul is mine" hax you see on a lot of OP profiles.

Best to just continue with the debate. Do we have a vote count?
 
ZellTemplar55 said:
Yes it's very much gonna be a problem, it's not that simple, plus she has various other abilities to go along with that, if he was a good bit more powerful then maybe it would, but he isn't
Click to expand...
Saber's regen isn't even that good. Her weakness section says it takes minutes to work properly if she is badly wounded. Why would Ren even wait for that? Also your reasoning doesn't cover any point or debunk anything, just says she has a bunch of abilities and that they are better without explaining them.
 
The real cal howard said:
Your boi Cal doesn't have an opinion yet. Who's got the AP advantage? No one?
Click to expand...
I know Saber's AP is scaling from being far higher than 385.11 megatons. I haven't heard what Ren's is
 
I think the closest thing Ren has are guesstimates via fodderizing 2000 people Furioku and Marco (baselinish) with his 55000ish. Also IIRC Chocolove who shouldn't be that much stronger than him at this point casually created this with his Oversoul.

Should note that in-verse differences in Furyoku when too big generally means you can't even touch the other person.
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
I'll say this. If servants aren't spirits, then they should technically lack souls since they just have spiritual cores.
Click to expand...
I'd think spiritual cores and souls are synonymous here.
 
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