Massive Dark Souls Downgrades 3

Konaguna · Jan 9, 2019

here we stand agai

I really wanted to avoid putting myself at the head of Dark Souls revisions, but I simply can not leave things as they are, due to a lot of things I have learned and found along the way.

This will only cover tier 4, and not tier 6 along with it

Before you go and sodomize me for being a "Biased hater of the series", read this thread first, because I Promise you, that it names far more problems than both of my first two threads combined, not only the feats themselves, but also the general scaling.

The Feats and The Statements

First off all I'd like to lay down things I've already said in the past threads so that I can proceed to add newer findings.

1) The fueling the sun feat, as I have pointed out many times, is severely lacking of any kind of explanation, furthermore, this "feat" is interpreted as the highest possible result for the current tiering, considering that they maintaining the sun with their power is the only possible explanation for it. This is absolute Whack, as there is absolutely no thing to support that:

They fuel the sun directly, or have the flame do it

They even fuel the sun, even though said "feat" was never once mentioned or implied

This whole "Feat" is basically the highest possible interpretation with no evidence to support and only being accepted because the whole thing just logically makes sense

1.2) Interestingly enough, Aldia often says that this age of fire is only an Illusion, which makes far more sense than keeping an entire Heavenly Body in existence. This wouldn't even be an absurd thing to believe, since you know, that one Trap already did something similar before

"Peace grants men the illusion of life. Shackled by falsehoods, they yearn for love, unaware of its grand illusion. Until, the curse touches their flesh. We are bound by this yoke. As true as the Dark that churns within men."

"All men trust fully the illusion of life. But is this so wrong? A construction, a facade, and yet... A world full of warmth and resplendence. Young Hollow, are you intent on shattering the yoke, spoiling this wonderful falsehood?"

"Once, the Lord of Light banished Dark, and all that stemmed from humanity. And men assumed a fleeting form. These are the roots of our world. Men are props on the stage of life, and no matter how tender, how exquisite... A lie will remain a lie. Young Hollow, knowing this, do you still desire peace?"

Not to Mention Aldia knows this due to him breaking out of the cycle on his own strange way and has learned of it's ways.

2) There are also 0 statements that the flame transports the power into the sun, rather than keeping it alive via some form of magic or being it's catalyst. I dare you to go look through every item description, go through all dialogues, explore every bit the game has to offer you and you won't find a thing implying this, but if you do, you're welcome to show me.

3) Then we have Gwyn requiring the combined might of 2 other lords, his army, the Witch's army, and Nito to destroy the Dragons, and this was when Gwyn was at his absolute strongest, yet he is incapable of killing them by himself or at least with his own army. One could argue that they stomped them, but he needed a lot of help from very powerful people, which already makes him look a lot less impressive.

3.2) Also, more than Gwyn stomping the drakes with his sunlight spears, it is more often interpreted to peel their scales off, rather than kill them with it, meaning, the other lords were indeed necessary to stand a chance as the sunlight spears stripped them off of immortality. While they do Hurt them, Gwyn would have oneshot them yet he did not.

4) Gwyn also fails to beat the Demon army after the witch failed in creating the second flame, and this said demon army contained Low Tier Demons Like Asylum demons, Taurus Demons...

4.2)*Also for some reason, it is believed Gwyn's soul is the most powerful of the 4 ones by far, while I don't completely deny this possibility I've done research and found one measly statement calling his adopted Soul the "Ultimate soul" Which by itself is not really a credible enough statement to support, given how Gwyn's power isn't really exceeding everyone in the series even when at his peak.

5) Prime Anor Londo was scared of Kalameet, who is just another ancient dragon, and this was when Gwyn was still at home.

"Yes, I thought as much. He is called Kalameet. A ferocious dragon indeed, even mighty Anor Londo dared not provoke his ire. I see little good coming from this, but... Thy intent is to persevere... to the bitter end, hmm?"

Now before you say "Gwyn was never stated to be there at the time", well that's not true, since "Mighty" obviously refers to prime Anor Londo and describes something grand, because after Gwyn left, this Anor Londo wasn't as mighty no more, since it suffered severe damage from the war with the demons, and even the quote from Gough refers to a time before the events of Oolacile even took place.

6) Slave Knight Gael... he is believed to be on par with Endgame Ashen one, but he is by no means comparable to him at all. You can Chronologically already access the Ashes of Ariandel DLC before you even fight the abyss watchers, and go to Ringed City from there onward, meaning that Gael here can be beaten by a pretty weak version of the Ashen One.

Before you claim that the DLCS are too difficult to be beaten at a low level like that, we'll honestly I don't care, the difficulty is subjective and it's chronological access is not dictated by it. The possibility of the Ashen one beating Gael before the Abyss watchers is very much possible and should be taken into account no matter the difficulty, not only the other counter part, just because it suits the tiering better and is easier by the time.

6.2) and even if we consider the fact that Ashen one reaches the DLC right before the soul of cinder boss battle, that means that literally every DLC boss is now superior to Lorian, even the Demon Prince, who got beaten by Lorian in the first place

7) Often Stated that Vendrick almost became a lord of Cinder, yet the guy couldn't even fend off some giants trashing his kingdom, he couldn't even handle Nashandra, and that was before he went full Beef Jerky. Nash is absolutely not even close to Vendrick, he could have clapped her any day.

The Scaling
Ahhh Scaling, this is one of the main reasons why the verse is weaker than it is portrayed right now, lets delve into it.

Also before going into this, I will address an issue about Boss fight order.

While Some supposed "god tier" bosses are fought early in the game, and therefor weaker bosses shouldn't scale because that would be stupid and should instead be judged by own feats.

This whole logic is severely single minded, and is a double standard, bosses who are fought after strong enemies can still harm you, tank your attacks and very much keep up with you fairly, so scaling like that applies unless you want to say that every boss past a stronger one gets shitstomped until a boss as strong as the previous strongest or stronger one appears, more on that right on the topic below.

*Dark Souls 3 scaling

1) Abyss Watchers here are tiered at 4-C because they are lords of cinder who can sustain the.. you get the idea, everything seems in order, but is it really?

This makes more problems than one could believe.

First of all, the power that the Abyss Watchers have is the one from Artorias, as it's been stated that they got their power from him, what does that mean? it means that Artorias gave them the power to Link the Fire, and this is a massive kick in the nuts for the tier four lords, because that means Manus is also stronger than him, and would be a tier 4 which makes no sense at all, also makes absolutely no sense for Artorias to be as powerful as his Patron, the Lord of Sunlight

Next up, the very fact that Ashen one can beat the abyss watchers so early on is reeking of some serious problems. Every Boss that you chronologically can not beat before beating the Abyss watchers is now also tier 4, meaning bosses like Wolnir, Pontiff Sulyvahn, Ancient Wyvern, Nameless King and maybe even Dancer and Oceiros are now tier 4 because they can already match the Ashen one who beat one lord of Cinder, he already has the power to beat one lord, so if weaker characters can match him past that point then we have a serious problem here, unless you wanna go ahead and prove that he casually shitstomps all of them, which is just an excuse to make make the character seem as strong as one wants.

The fact that Siegward can wrestle with Yhorm the Giant is also not helping the tier 4 DS. Siegward can tank hits from Yhorm yet he doesn't have any tier 4 feats, and is ridiciolus to think hje should have them, same goes for Solaire beating Gwyn. Rather than considering that Gwyn isn't that strong, he is just considered to be as strong as CU. This is not only ludicrous given the fact that Solaire barely did shit (best feat was keeping up with Ornstein and Smoguh). How does one even put Solarie that high? Chosen Undead has literally killed every top tier in Lordran which made him worthy of linking the fire, While Solaire just gets to be tier 4 for no reason even tho by feats and Achievements he is WAY below the Chosen Undead.

Lothric can fight and exchange hits with Ashen one who by that point already mopped the floor with Abyss Watchers, Aldrich and Yhorm… yet Lothric is not even a lord of cinder so for him to be able to perform such feats against ashen one are absolutely ridiculous,

*Dark Souls 2 scaling

Let's take a look at Bearer of the Curse, who is also suffering from some scaling problems along with another character, let me explain.

So Shanalotte outright tells you to go and link the first flame, which in this game for some reason is the Throne of Want, but that's beside the point, the Bearer of the Curse has to beat Nashandra in order to Link the first flame, or leave it be, it doesn't matter, what matters is that by the endgame he has enough power to link the fire.

Which brings me to the problem, Nashandra is a heavily watered down version of Manus, who himself is not nearly as powerful as a lord of Cinder. And yet she gets to contend with engame Bearer of the Curse. Neither claiming that she is on par with him, or that he got sufficent power to Link the fire from her work, because both of them mean she is way superior to Manus (who is way below a level of a lord), even though she was the smallest piece of him.

The Conclusion
I will be brutally honest, the entire Premise of Tier 4 Dark souls is one single logically built feat with no context or implications to even slightly guarantee it's legitimacy, furthermore it stands only due to several of the characters being titled as "God Tiers" and way above anyone else in the series when this isn't even true. This is heavily logicalized to specifically support such absurd high end stats, and does not keep up with it's consistency at all.

Not only is the feat itself iffy, it is also leaning towards being something entirely different.

If this gets accepted, I don't think I need to name the consequences that will follow. If they get downgraded, to what degree? I do not know, as I've focused this thread into debunking the current tiering, not setting up a new one.

WeeklyBattles · Jan 9, 2019

Sigh...this again...

Konaguna · Jan 9, 2019

No it's not THAT again, this time it's way different

Sir_sun_man · Jan 10, 2019

there are good points here some that i agree with but the whole gael thing is wrong

as it has been stated by the developers and item discriptions alike that the dlc takes place after the end of ds3

seen in the description of the old dragon slayer armor

you could ofcorse use the argument that time is convoluted in darksouls as a whole and thats how the ashen one can get there early in the game

but then you have to apply that argument to the ashen one himself

also i think that the undead legion should be down graded in their lord of cyder form (as it has been stated that linking the flame dose diminish your power by a large margin)

Konaguna · Jan 11, 2019

Sir sun man said:
there are good points here some that i agree with but the whole gael thing is wrong

as it has been stated by the developers and item discriptions alike that the dlc takes place after the end of ds3

seen in the description of the old dragon slayer armor

you could ofcorse use the argument that time is convoluted in darksouls as a whole and thats how the ashen one can get there early in the game

but then you have to apply that argument to the ashen one himself

also i think that the undead legion should be down graded in their lord of cyder form (as it has been stated that linking the flame dose diminish your power by a large margin)

Honestly it doesn't matter which end is considered to be true for the Ringed City, since:

1) Considering early game ashen one beats it, well that stands for itself

3) Endgame Ashen doing it just means more scaling problems and the fact bosses you fight are supposed to be stronger but get owned by weaker ones.

Ornstein's shit is severely inconsistent, you get his soul in DKS 1 so I don't see how he's suddenly in DKS2 and then "found" in another area in DKS3

Sir_sun_man · Jan 11, 2019

well ornstein is not in ds1 its just an illusion multiple item discripions hint to it in ds3 like the armor and weapon of smough which say that smough was the last knight to defend gwynevers illusion meaning that ornstein was never there and was nothing more then an illusion created by gwyndolin which would explain why orstein is so god damned weak for a captain of the 4 knight who posses a small shard of gwyns soul and who even before getting said shard could take out multiple ancient dragons just by himself And gwyndolin is cabable of creating souls its seems or at the very least mimicing them rather well as the illusions of the gaint gurdians drop actual physical items that do not disapear after killing him or gwynavear and also drop souls upon their death

the ds2 dragon slayer is not ornstein as it is stated in the item disctiptions that he imitated a lagendery dragon slayer of yore

and one more thing i wasn't talking about ornstein at all when i was talking about old dragon slayer armor i was talking about the pre lothric prince boss the old dragon slayer armor, as it dose show up in the ringed city as a special enemy in the abyssal swamp and after you beat it, you get its armor, with this description " After its defeat by the Ashen one in lothric castle, the remains of the Dragonslayer Armour were left to rust for YEARS. It eventually ended up in the swamps of the Ringed[1]City where it was possessed by the memories of its hunts and reanimated itself"

this description states that the armor was left for years to rust after being beaten by the ashen one meaning that the ringed city takes place way after the end of dark souls 3

then ageing we can use the whole time is convoluted part of the lore to explain how the ashen one could get to the ringed city early on but that would also imply time travel or time convolgions making it rather finicy in terms of power scaling as we simply don't know how the time in dark souls works for all we know the ashen one actually traveled forth threw time or he was simply put into his future selves body making all the bosses in the ringed city as strong as the end game ashen one if not stronger as he dose become stronger over the corse of the ringed city as he takes the last remaing shard of chaos form the demon prince, the dark soul it self(which should be at its strongest as the light has preaty much complitly fade by the time of the ringed city making it even more powerful then the light soul of gwyn) and also the soul of the last dragon which should be comperable if not stronger then the ancient dragons as it is carupted by the abyss making it a whole lot stronger(aspecialy since the fire is fadeing).

but i agree that the lords of cinder shouldn't be 4c-4b they should at the very least be around 6A, likly 5C and possibly 5A as their power is capable of keeping the intre world alive including multiple beings that are at least 6B,but that is not a 4C to 4B feat in my honest opinion but ageing this needs some revision and the whole keeping sun alive thing is preaty finicy aswell considering that it dosen't keep it going indefenetly only for a few hundred year to maybe a few Millennium which is preaty impressive but is in no way 4C, 5A at best in my honest opinion.

I also think that major bosses like manus, bed of chaos and nito(and bosses simular to them) should be upgraded to at least 6A to likly 5C as they have power comperanble to gwyn as they posses souls of the lords which are close to power with one another, nito with the soul of death bed of chaos with the soul of life and manus with a great portion of the soul of dark(as he is most likly the original human aka the furtive pygmy)

DocAnimeTheory · Jan 11, 2019

Don't fall into the trolls bait...

Konaguna · Jan 11, 2019

@Sir Sun Man

Ornstein being an Illusion is a no go tho since:

He actually damages the area around him, same way as smough
Absorbs the other's power and vice versa, it would be impossible for smough to receive power from an Illusion
Ornstein drops his soul, which allows you to convert it to his spear along with another weapon

Anor Londo and it's inhabitants dropping items should be a game mechanic, it makes no sense for illusions to drop actual items

It isn't necessarily true for the ringed city to be past the endgame, see, it is possible that just like after reaching Fillianore, you supposedly warp forward in time, so it isn't impossible to believe the entire DLC is set in the future. This is also supported by the fact that The Gael's questline and Ashes of Ariandel are connected in their own way.

About dragonslayer armour, I really don't know why this would be relevant and I haven't considered it, since I was trying to go into a different way here, but you might be onto something.

"as their power is capable of keeping the intre world alive including multiple beings that are at least 6B"

where are you getting this from? I'm just trying to prove the fueling of the sun feat isn't something that can be applied to the verse's tiering due to the reasons I've already named on my CTR.

There was also a thread about tier 6 feat not being legit, but that went nowhere

Anyways, sorry for the lazy reply, you seem to be already trying to debate for something for a possible new tiering, which is not really what I care about focusing on, no offense

Sir_sun_man · Jan 11, 2019

not gona go into the tiering anymore just gona give you the reason to why ornstein in ds1 is an illusion.

1. when we fight gwyndolin the illusion of the heavely ilongated room is completely physical even being capable of stoping gwyndolins magic and arrows which are infact real

2. the other illusions like the giants that stand infront and in the cothidral are physical as they can not only kill us but they also drop weapons that we can weild and damage other real beings

3. said illusions also drop souls appon their death which would imply that gwyndolin is capable of either giving or creating souls.

4.gwynevere in ds1 is an illusion and it has been confiremed multiple times yet she can be hit she even bleeds

5. gwyndolins illusions are so strong that they can remain there even after his death as seen with gwyneveres illusion remaining in anor londo even after we kill gwyndolin

so to wrap this up gwyndolin is more then capable of creating illusions that are indeed physical to the point were they remain even after his death.

which explains how ornstein was not killed during the boss battle but smough was and its because he never was there to begin with.

The_Mysterious_Stranger_-_Delta- · Jan 11, 2019

Honestly, the item description of Smough in DS3 could very well be inaccurate. Smough was never considered a knight, and his cannibalistic nature prevented him from joining the Knights of Gwyn. He was an executioner who was told to guard the illusion of Gwynevere alongside Ornstein.

This could be an example of a misinterpretation and embellishment of an actually event passed down through oral tradition. Smough being a knight sounds precisely like an embellishment considering what he was actually considered to be.

Ornstein is a bit of a tricky character. If he truly left Anor Londo in search of the Nameless King, then the Ornstein we fought in DS1 could be an illusion or some golem resembling him that is powered by a soul. Considering where we found his armor in DS3, it's possible.

Konaguna · Jan 11, 2019

I'll reply to this tomorrow, I'm kinda sleepy rn tbh

Sir_sun_man · Jan 11, 2019

The Mysterious Stranger - Delta- said:
Honestly, the item description of Smough in DS3 could very well be inaccurate. Smough was never considered a knight, and his cannibalistic nature prevented him from joining the Knights of Gwyn. He was an executioner who was told to guard the illusion of Gwynevere alongside Ornstein.
This could be an example of a misinterpretation and embellishment of an actually event passed down through oral tradition. Smough being a knight sounds precisely like an embellishment considering what he was actually considered to be.

Ornstein is a bit of a tricky character. If he truly left Anor Londo in search of the Nameless King, then the Ornstein we fought in DS1 could be an illusion or some golem resembling him that is powered by a soul. Considering where we found his armor in DS3, it's possible.

its not just possible its likely

and smough was a never mentioned not to be a knight he just couldn't join the 4 knights of gwyn(aka the elite) i think, plus he aspired to be one of the 4 knights and i think just an executioner couldn't even have a chance of joining the elite knights of gwyn the only thing that prevented him from joining the 4 knights was his crulty and canabalism so i'd says he was some type of knight as well as an executioner, but that is just a speculation

haven't dwelled in the lore for a good while so you might be right there

The_Mysterious_Stranger_-_Delta- · Jan 11, 2019

He was simply considered to be an executioner. The only thing that supports him being the last "knight" to guard the ruined cathedral is the item description of his armor that is told from the perspective of historians in a vastly distant age.

Countless ages have passed since the first game, so I'd wager it to be an embellishment more than anything else. Historians can be inaccurate from time to time. I'll leave this to speculation as well, but he was never stated to be a knight of any kind in DS1. To adopt the title of executioner, and to be given knighthood is pretty strange though lol.

Iapitus_The_Impaler · Jan 11, 2019

Konaguna · Jan 15, 2019

Sir sun man said:
not gona go into the tiering anymore just gona give you the reason to why ornstein in ds1 is an illusion.

1. when we fight gwyndolin the illusion of the heavely ilongated room is completely physical even being capable of stoping gwyndolins magic and arrows which are infact real

Or it could just be an Illusion that we perceived as real, since you know, how did Gwyndolin even survive for so long, if we literally got his soul afterwards

2. the other illusions like the giants that stand infront and in the cothidral are physical as they can not only kill us but they also drop weapons that we can weild and damage other real beings

Or maybe they are just tied to the illusion of Gwynewere's, as killing Gwyndolin by accessing his room with that ring still doesn't dispel the illusion of Gwynewere or anything else

3. said illusions also drop souls appon their death which would imply that gwyndolin is capable of either giving or creating souls.

Nothing I remember implies they're Illusions or even created by Gwyndolin, but for this, refer to the comment above

4.gwynevere in ds1 is an illusion and it has been confiremed multiple times yet she can be hit she even bleeds

Don't recall her ever bleeding tbh

5. gwyndolins illusions are so strong that they can remain there even after his death as seen with gwyneveres illusion remaining in anor londo even after we kill gwyndolin

I feel this is kind of unimportant to the topic at hand, but this doesn't sound like Illusion creation anymore

so to wrap this up gwyndolin is more then capable of creating illusions that are indeed physical to the point were they remain even after his death.

Enemies should not be an Illusion, but should be tied to the Illusion of Gwynewere, as you can still fight them and gain their souls. Also I don't recall Gwyndolin creating enemies, he merely created the Illusion of Gwynewere and the sunny Londo

which explains how ornstein was not killed during the boss battle but smough was and its because he never was there to begin with.

Yes he was, you literally get his soul, it doesn't come from an Illusion, you can't possibility give a soul to an Illusion, and Smough who FSHO is there gets powered up by him when he kills him, it doesn't come from nothing.

Also about the Dragonslayer armour, even if Ringed City DLC was to be considered post beating Dragonslayer armour, it would make no difference as you can already beat him and reach the grand archives before going at the abyss watchers, meaning in the end, the Dragonslayer armour you fight in the ringed city is still on par with pre Abyss watchers Ashen one.

Sir_sun_man · Jan 15, 2019

Konaguna said:
Also about the Dragonslayer armour, even if Ringed City DLC was to be considered post beating Dragonslayer armour, it would make no difference as you can already beat him and reach the grand archives before going at the abyss watchers, meaning in the end, the Dragonslayer armour you fight in the ringed city is still on par with pre Abyss watchers Ashen one.

the thing with the dragon armour in the ring city is that its item discription says that it was beaten YEARS ago and unless you want to imply that the ashen one littrealy took year to beat the abyss watchers he couldn't of faced it in the ringed city unless you want to imply time travel which im not going to go into at all due to how ****** it is in dark souls

Overlord775 · Jan 15, 2019

Time travel is totally a possibility, heck the darkened firelight shrine is confimed to be in the past and you can react it by walking

Overlord775 · Jan 15, 2019

Konaguna said:
Also about the Dragonslayer armour, even if Ringed City DLC was to be considered post beating Dragonslayer armour, it would make no difference as you can already beat him and reach the grand archives before going at the abyss watchers, meaning in the end, the Dragonslayer armour you fight in the ringed city is still on par with pre Abyss watchers Ashen one.

The game outright tells you to search trough the depths of Lothic's castle before exploring the painted world of ariamis

And no, without beating all other lord of cinder you can't enter the grand archives. The key only spanws after you kill them

Sir_sun_man · Jan 15, 2019

the whole thing with dark souls time travel is its very finicy, solaire states that worriers can be pulled from future and past at random and as seen in ds2,3 and remestered when warriors get pulled from the future or past via the summoning sings their streangth and abilitys are altred to ajust which wouldn't effect the sacling

but i really don't want to go into dark souls time travel due to one reason that is stated by solaire: time is convoluted.

Konaguna · Jan 15, 2019

@Sun

Dragonslayer armour thing

I said you can reach grand archives before abyss watchers, to reach the gate of the archive you need to beat Dragonslayer armour. it is a possibility, therefor it can not be ruled out. beating Dragonslayer armour in Lothric castle and Ringed city before even starting the abyss watcher fight was my point, as it proves that the ringed city can still be beaten before fighting them.

And yes, I am implying time travel, because that's totally not a thing in ringed city, since you know, you can travel between a ruined ringed city and the one that still stands.

@Overlord

Also, Lothric castle is literally the area before fighting Dragonslayer armour so Idk what you trynna prove with that

I'd like to stop derailing this tho, so if you got anything else to say, please do

Overlord775 · Jan 15, 2019

You are not supposed to enter Lothic's castle before beating the lord of cinders.

You being able to do that is not the intended progression of the game

Sir_sun_man · Jan 15, 2019

ok lets move on

the whole thing with compering the gwyndolin illusions and the actuall sun is a streach

for one the sun that is created by gwyndolin is flat out stated to be an illusion and the actual sun in the ds universes hasn't even been implyed to be an illusion their wasn't even a hint of that implication

we could also see that after the illusion of sun is dispelled their remain a moon or some type of light while in the ds3 dark ending or in the dark firelink shire(which is in some weird timeless state which could also imply that the first flame keeps the flow of time going) their is nothing but total darkness no stars no moon nothing just the void.

Konaguna · Jan 15, 2019

Overlord775 said:
You are not supposed to enter Lothic's castle before beating the lord of cinders.

You being able to do that is not the intended progression of the game

Not intended=/=Impossible

Just because the bosses are way out of your league, it doesn't make progression impossible. The game difficulty is a subjective thing here. What matters is the availability of all outcomes here.

And if you do consider post 3 lords Lothric castle exploration to be the true option, then that already puts 3 bosses above a lord of cinder when they never should be in the first place.

Konaguna · Jan 15, 2019

@Sir Sun

I'll get back to ya tomorrow, It is already late and I must rest, sorry for this one late reply, but I had tons of work, no offense

ShiroyashaGinSan · Jan 15, 2019

>We're doing this again

Overlord775 · Jan 15, 2019

Konaguna said:
Not intended=/=Impossible

Just because the bosses are way out of your league, it doesn't make progression impossible. The game difficulty is a subjective thing here. What matters is the availability of all outcomes here.

You are supposed to follow the elder's advice and go search for the lords of cinder.

Then only reason you would know to kill her to reach the castle is via meta-gaming.

Meta-gaming =/= Canon

Sir_sun_man · Jan 16, 2019

im legit afreid that this may go the other way around because if we go further into the time shenanigins and how it is linked to the first flame and ds will get an even higher rating due to the fact that the first flame seems to be effecting time in a way that it creates new time lines and time itself.

Iapitus_The_Impaler · Jan 16, 2019

It might lol

Konaguna · Jan 16, 2019

Overlord775 said:
You are supposed to follow the elder's advice and go search for the lords of cinder.

Then only reason you would know to kill her to reach the castle is via meta-gaming.

Meta-gaming =/= Canon

Just because she says it, doesn't make it so, you're literally ignoring the possibility of this outcome. I'ts not meta gaming, its simply the freedom of choice.

And you do realize, that considering it false Works to my favour since it screws with the sacling even more than it already does.

Konaguna · Jan 16, 2019

Sir sun man said:
im legit afreid that this may go the other way around because if we go further into the time shenanigins and how it is linked to the first flame and ds will get an even higher rating due to the fact that the first flame seems to be effecting time in a way that it creates new time lines and time itself.

No it doesn't, it is simply linked through different points in time, and the verse's consistency is drastically lower than it is now.

Konaguna · Jan 16, 2019

Sir sun man said:
we could also see that after the illusion of sun is dispelled their remain a moon or some type of light while in the ds3 dark ending or in the dark firelink shire(which is in some weird timeless state which could also imply that the first flame keeps the flow of time going) their is nothing but total darkness no stars no moon nothing just the void.

Chyea, Infinite speed Everlasting Dragons cuz they existed before the fire. This is way too much speculating, can you please focus on what it's at thread?

Overlord775 · Jan 16, 2019

By lore Lord of Cinder >>> normal bosses

they are supposed to be the pinnacle of power

the only ones powerfull enought to link the first flame without being vaporized

there's no way to get around that

Konaguna · Jan 16, 2019

@Overlord

Did you even read this thread? Or are you purposely trying to enrage me to force this thread into closure? i literally posted a lenghty explanation why Lords of Cinder are nothing special at all, and that they are heavily tied to lower tiers of the series.

Paul_Frank · Jan 16, 2019

Lord of cinder are the strongest bosses by lore though saying they aren't is like saying yhorm=crystal sages

Overlord775 · Jan 16, 2019

i'll respond to each of your points:

1) the feat is strightfoward. No first flame = no sun

The lord of cinders sacrifice themself so that the first flame won't fade.

We saw a flashback from the age of acients, no sun, and have been told that light and heat didn't even exist up untill that point.

1.2) Considering the guy, i don't think he ment that is a literal illusion, i far more probable he ment it a phylosophcal way, life doesn't have any meaning and such.

And the first flame never showcased to be able to create illusion, its always shown warping reality tho

2) Ocram's razor. Assuming that it works as a catalist or via some sort of magic take more assumption that: if the flame dies, the sun dies too, so the life of both are linked

3) The dragons were stated to be invulnenerable to damage thanks to their stone scales

4)Gwyn won that war, as seen by the fact that demons now work for anor londo

4.2) Yes, the other 2 lords at thier prime should scale to him

5) the black dragon scaring even Gwin is heavely contradicted by Gough shooting him down from the sky while blinded

6) Gael has the almost complete dark soul within him, which is as strong as the light soul of Gwyn.

6.2) The Lorian we fight in an incredibly crippled one

7) The fact that the giants were fully exterminated tells a different story. Also don't know much about DS2 but as far as i remember the giants didn't even breach Vendric's castle before getting offed.

Also Nashandra tricked Ventrick in to loving her, so he didn't want to kill her.

The Scaling:

We don't scale bosses as they are encounter because an idiot would understand that a random wyver or dragonslayer is not superior to the likes of Yhorm.

1) The abyss watchers are formed by undeads, like the protagonist of dark soul 1, which have shown to be able to be able to exponentially grow in power as they consume more and more soul. the abyss watchers have wiped out multiple countries, so they absorbed a soul or soul, and in dark soul Souls = Power.

There literally dozens of games where a boss in fought after a canonically stronger boss

Sigguard is an ashen one aka he has the same potential as the player character.

Word of God by Myazaki says that Solaire would be able to link the fire

Lothric was supposed to link the first flame, but he didn't because he refused to do it

DS2

Nashandra is also an exemple of with the oder ypu fight them in as she's canonically weaker than bosses you fight before her, like her sister and the final boss of the DLC

Konaguna · Jan 16, 2019

Overlord775 said:
i'll respond to each of your points:

1) the feat is strightfoward. No first flame = no sun

The lord of cinders sacrifice themself so that the first flame won't fade.

We saw a flashback from the age of acients, no sun, and have been told that light and heat didn't even exist up untill that point.

This has been said nowhere, there is no description of how the flame "Keeps the sun alive, only Aldia who perhaps knows the flame more than anyone else described how it actually works."

1.2) Considering the guy, i don't think he ment that is a literal illusion, i far more probable he ment it a phylosophcal way, life doesn't have any meaning and such.

And the first flame never showcased to be able to create illusion, its always shown warping reality tho

Chyea, now you're saying that because you don't know fsho that it was an illusion it must be RW huh?

It's not like Aldia legit just called the age of fire a grand Illusion, a fa├ºade and a straight up lie. Makes a lot more sense than keeping the entire sun alie based off something that can't even be called a feat.

2) Ocram's razor. Assuming that it works as a catalist or via some sort of magic take more assumption that: if the flame dies, the sun dies too, so the life of both are linked

This is pure speculation without any proof, while I actually provided several statements from the guy who became embedded with the flame and knows it's true nature.

The first flame also never dies, but still has small embers, which can be reignited.

3) The dragons were stated to be invulnenerable to damage thanks to their stone scales

No they weren't they are only immortal because of their scales, how TF did a slumper like Havel kill them then?

4)Gwyn won that war, as seen by the fact that demons now work for anor londo

No he didn't, his silver knights and him got destroyed, and then he went to link the fire, only demons in Anor Londo are those gargoyles. the other ones are spread across Lordran, which also furtherly supports why they are still there instead of being deafeated

4.2) Yes, the other 2 lords at thier prime should scale to him

5) the black dragon scaring even Gwin is heavely contradicted by Gough shooting him down from the sky while blinded

He only weakened him, and Gough himself said he was a threat to AL, this coming from the person who was one of his elites

6) Gael has the almost complete dark soul within him, which is as strong as the light soul of Gwyn.

Scans of dark soul being on par with soul of light? Furthermore, you're lying, Gael didn't even get the complete dark soul, Manus, who is the furtive pygmy, is the original bearer of it, since he literally created the thing dark souls ties to, the Abyss. He had so much power, his humanity went wild.

6.2) The Lorian we fight in an incredibly crippled one

I wasn't talking about current Lorian, but the one that defeated Demon Prince

7) The fact that the giants were fully exterminated tells a different story. Also don't know much about DS2 but as far as i remember the giants didn't even breach Vendric's castle before getting offed.

Also Nashandra tricked Ventrick in to loving her, so he didn't want to kill her.

He locked himself away from her, he could have easily killed her if he wanted to, but he didn't. It is because Vednrick knew Nash wanted to access the throne of want that he locked himself up.

The Scaling:

We don't scale bosses as they are encounter because an idiot would understand that a random wyver or dragonslayer is not superior to the likes of Yhorm.

I never said these bosses were superior, rather Comparable which makes most sense considering they can keep up with you completely fine. Unless you're ready to prove that Ashen one can oneshot every non lord of cinder boss. And before you go and say that the lore is important, well... not before game feats it ain't

1) The abyss watchers are formed by undeads, like the protagonist of dark soul 1, which have shown to be able to be able to exponentially grow in power as they consume more and more soul. the abyss watchers have wiped out multiple countries, so they absorbed a soul or soul, and in dark soul Souls = Power.

Yeah that's a complete Lie, Artorias was literally the power that allowed them to become the lords. And we both Know artorias ain't worth shit to a lord. Below is a direct statement from their cinders of a lord

"The Watchers of the Abyss swore upon their shared wolf's blood, which also served as their mandate as lords."

There literally dozens of games where a boss in fought after a canonically stronger boss

they fight an Ashen one that already beat a lord of Cinder. For the bosses to not scale past stronger ones is just a poor excuse. Every the first two games handled scaling completely fine, whereas DKS3 doesn't in order to support the current tiering

Sigguard is an ashen one aka he has the same potential as the player character.

Except that he is featless, and has nowhere near the power as the Ashen one who by that point already killed Abyss watchers, and maybe even Aldrich if you count that.

Word of God by Myazaki says that Solaire would be able to link the fire

WoG is meaningless against actual game feats where Solaire's best feat was keeping up with O and S, suddenly jumping from Country to star is a big ******* stretch don't you think?

Lothric was supposed to link the first flame, but he didn't because he refused to do it

He was supposed to, that does not mean he was capable of doing it, big difference

DS2

Nashandra is also an exemple of with the oder ypu fight them in as she's canonically weaker than bosses you fight before her, like her sister and the final boss of the DLC

Paul_Frank · Jan 16, 2019

I just want to point out that Gael did have the dark soul not only is it stated but he also consumed the pigmy lords and all of the humanity up until the end of the world besides the player character and recreated the original dark soul

Also manus being the furtive pigmy is not only speculation but it is contradicted by a few things in the games

Matthew_Schroeder · Jan 16, 2019

Ah, once again the attempt to downgrade the entire Dark Souls setting based mainly on the pre-conceived notion that the verse's characters cannot be that powerful, which itself is fueled mostly by aesthetic and presentation.

WindGodAcheron · Jan 16, 2019

I'm kind of leaning on agreeing with Sir sun man on disagreeing with this downgrade. Although maybe a low-end for the feat could be included in the profile, like continental or so since that's the energy the sun outputs every second.

Overlord775 · Jan 16, 2019

I have an idea, let's put the rating as "possibly" since we aren't 100% sure how the feat is done

Massive Dark Souls Downgrades 3

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