Altair (Re:Creators) vs Medea Pideth Machina

[DontTalkDT]

It really won't work due to her being an Acausal. From what I'm getting....

Infinity destroyer isn't bound by causality, heck it can even erase the very law of causality. Altair having no past isn't really relevant for this line of reasoning.


With her posession you mean the 66th movement, yes? Does that even work against beings that are not abstracts of type 4 concepts? Overwriting a type 4 concept would not do anything to a normal being.

That aside, Medea probably has a certain degree of resistance against conceptual manipulation, so doing that isn't so easy and... how would she activate the technique if she is dead and doesn't get to regenerate to be able to take an action?


The varity is nice, but would any of this have effect on other fragments of Medea? They are more or less separate, like they have separate souls and mind and histories etc.

Are there any attacks that would effect all of them at once?

To that comes that Medea makes it so that her attacks take effect before she even performs them.

Essentially the moment the fight starts Medea will have attacked before the start of the fight. This way she attacks first. Of course that would be an attack in the past and acausality stufff, but since it also effects al future versions that isn't the issue.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Altair FRA

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@DontTalkDT

Infinity Destroyer isn't bound by causality and can erase the law of causality? Scan?

The 66th Movement was only used on Altair, so we don't know if it works on other for 100% certainty, but having such an incredibly specific power would make no sense given the situation. The 66th Movement isn't a power designed to defeat Altair, it's just a power that Altair had in her moveset that could put her down. If it was something like Ionion Aphoria that would be a little more arguable, but since we know the functionality of Ionion Aphoria that isn't even a worry.

The functionality of 66th is still the same, even if it can apply to Type 4 conceptuals.

You say "probably", but does she have Conceptual attacks in her non-boosted arsenal?

If there are literally tons of Medeas with different souls, minds, and histories, it isn't the same character, straight up. That's like saying Xeno Goku would be able to keep fighting as Normal Goku. If there character has a different history and fundamental aspects, it's a different character.

"To that comes that Medea makes it so that her attacks take effect before she event performs them."

...What?

 

[YungManzi]

Thinking about it...Speed unequal Medea might be one of the strongest 2-C characters on the wiki. Considering the fact that Medea can react to a stronger version of her own Infinity destroyer=Immeasurable attacks and reactions.

 

[YungManzi]

@Assalt

"Since each fragment is a part of her soul one would presumably have to kill all of them in order to really kill her, though killing the main fragments would likely weaken her to the point of rendering her completely harmless."

She can also take energy from the universe she is within (Her true self can).

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Yung

To kill Aku you don't need to kill all pieces of The Nameless Evil. Unless it has been shown that another one of her fragments assumes the position of the "primary" Medea, I really don't think that's applicable to combat, if to her character at all.

 

[YungManzi]

@Assalt

Hmm, I somewhat agree actually(Although it has been implied that all fragments of her would need to be destroyed to truly kill her). Although her opponent would still have to worry about starting off fighting a fragment.

Also here are the screenshots from a fan translation of chapter 374 describing Infinity Destroyer.

 

[Lancer45Man]

Thing is, she doesn't really have to kill her. Altair has multiple ways to incap Medea as I've pointed out earlier which also counts for a Win.

I read through her quotations in her page and the imgur link, and I'll say this, while it does seem to be EE, however it seems more like attacking throughout Space-Time on a scale of multiple Universes and having Causality Manipulation to back it up so that no possibilities of a target being alive arises. It doesn't seem like Conceptual Manipulation as it isn't attacking the concept of the target but rather using a combo of EE, Death Manip, Causality Manip, Space-Time Attacks to erase the target in all possible points of time as well as in different Universes too so that they don't exist.

So while it's effective and deadly, it really isn't bypassing the Acausality of Altair which makes her transcend the Causality of the Storyworlds as well as not having a Past. Top it off with her Abstract Existence and Regen and the ability to exist in a void after when her Universe was erased, it's not gonna do much.

 

[Overloader99]

Altair FRA

 

[Xmark12]

Altair FRA

 

[YungManzi]

Medea also has type 1 acausality, so having "no past" wouldn't help Altair.

And while I completely disagree with Altair's Abstract existence stopping her from dying, because of her reliance on alternate Altairs (Something which is directly stated and cannot be ignored), I can see that your opinion on this particular issue won't change...So I'll move on to something else.

Would it be fair to say that the abilities that Altair and Sirius use objects to complete (Which are their most notable abilities) Need those object to complete them?

If it is, then Medea conceptually takes her weapons. Unless Altair has been shown to use an ability without an obect, we shouldn't assume she can use it without an object.

Edit:

I'm tempted to make an AE Altair discussion/downgrade thread on this.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Yung

Altair "relying on other Altairs" is not directly stated. At all. Make a CRT and post evidence for that if you want it accepted, but right now the consensus of those who participated in her thread is that she is conceptual in the way we currently accept her.

You can't just keep going on saying something that we don't currently accept as fact.

 

[YungManzi]

@Assalt

"My existence is sustained by the infinite number of creators adding to this poem."

Referring to creators creating other Altairs, spreading the idea of her and giving her more power. We know that within the verse of Re Creators alternate creations = alternate world.

"The power of creation gets handed off to someone. That person feels it and thinks about it. Then those thoughts give birth to the power of creation again."

She embodies the idea of Altair, but the idea of Altair is only perpetuated through the alternate Altairs created by creators (Who aren't anywhere near as powerful and aren't conceptual embodiements)

I'll drop this for now though, until I feel like making the thread.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Yung

Make the thread and I'll debunk/give the explanation for the accepted interpretation. None of what you listed is anything we haven't already seen and doesn't indicate reliance or even existence of multiple Altairs.

 

[Lancer45Man]

@Yung

Make the thread and I'll debunk/give the explanation for the accepted interpretation. None of what you listed is anything we haven't already seen and doesn't indicate reliance or even existence of multiple Altairs.

^

 

[Lancer45Man]

Also Medea having Type 1 Acausality isn't even remotely related here and you still completely miss the point.

And no, she doesn't always use weapons for her abilities and neither are those weapons anything special or powerful.

However, it's 7-1-0 and Grace period begins.

 

[YungManzi]

Okay lancer....show me these scans.

1) Sixty Sixth Movement being used without an object.

2) Twentieth movement being used without an object.

These are really her only options to put Medea down (and even that's a stretch), and as far as I know neither her nor sirius has ever done either one without the use of a weapon or some kind of object.

For all the people voting FRA, how will Altair put down Medea?

 

[Lancer45Man]

1) From 12:45 - 12:58 Thought Based Info Rewrite on a Conceptual Level that allowed her to Change Sirius into Altair 2.0

1.1) 13:00 - 13:30 Same Ability she uses to Info Rewrite Selesia's Sword but Using weapons. Meaning she can use her abilities both in a Thought Based manner or even using theatrics accompanied by Gun and Sword.

2) From 13:35 - 13:45 Meteora explains how Altair used her Probability Manipulation to possess Sirius before getting overwritten

3) 15:50 - 17:50 Altair creates a Universe for Setsuna with it's own Laws and Reality without using any weapon.

4) 11:05 - 11:50 Altair reverses Causality WITHOUT USING ANY WEAPONS

See? She can use her abilities without needing any weapons. Those weapons aren't anything special or powerful but rather only used for Dramatic purposes.

And lol people are voting her because they know she has various ways to incap Medea while Medea has none to affect her as I've addressed in the comments throughout the thread. All those points you have presented have been addressed by me and Assalt already so yeah.

 

[YungManzi]

1)That's a very specific ability under very specific circumstances, I don't even see how it's battle applicable tbh as it's very reliant on verse mechanics having to deal with creators and their acceptance. Reason being "Sirius had less information than Altair."

2) She's not even on screen when she performs this feat.

3)I'm not disputing that there are some abilities she has which don't require objects, I'm not even saying that the abilities don't come from her own power (It's possible they just need to be channeled through a weapon of some sort).

Everything you've mentioned that she uses without weapons are either things that Medea can shrug off, or things that don't even apply to her.

4) Again....not helpful against Medea, and a weapons was still involved.

 

[Lancer45Man]

1) That's not the point. Point is she performs the Info Rewrite in Ep 10 as I've pointed out while floating in the air using guns and swords. But in Ep 20 she did the same to Sirius without any weapon. Sirius had less information than Altair was in reference to how Altair possesed her before getting erased as Sirius lacked a personality

2) Refer above

3) She really doesn't really need to have weapons to use abilities. And I'm sorry but Medea doesn't have any resistance to Info Rewrite, Power Null, Conceptual Absorption, etc on her profile. So make a CRT and until then this match is still valid.

4) Weapons wasn't involved. Where do you see Weapons?? She just mentions the name of the Ability and Causality got reversed.

Again, if you think Medea has Resistance to the stuffs Altair has or in general has many resistances then go make a CRT as otherwise this match is still valid and Altair incaps.

 

[John985]

There's also in Ep8 where Altair didn't use any weapon to use her abilities.

 

[YungManzi]

1) Maybe you accidently placed the wrong time stamp for this, because I see nothing in relation to info rewrite.

3) I didn't say Medea has resistance to those abilities. I'm saying she shrugs it off because of her true self being outside of Altair's range and away from her focus.

4) Alice's lance is right there...clear as day...

 

[Lancer45Man]

1) Dude it's in context to her using the same ability in a thought based manner and using Weapons for dramatic purposes. You should know about Representation Expositio and it's ability to Revise Plot if have REALLY WATCHED the series

3) Again. Altair would incap the Medea that is present in front of her which counts as a win. Also do provide scans that Medea's true form exists outside Altair's 2-B/Possibly 2-A range

4) Aliceteria's Lance didn't reverse Causality..... Neither did Altair use that Lance

 

[YungManzi]

1) Lol. I did watch the entire show in full, but I will admit that I was increadibly annoyed by the final battle and halfway checked out during it. Altair is actually my one of my least favorite characters in the entire show, along with Setsuna.

The scene is episode 20; 12:45 - 13:00 right?

2) Altair's range is 2B-2-A with teleportation even assuming that her other abilities also have similar range, there's no proof that she would be able to sense Medea's true form to actually land an attack.

4) "I'm not even saying that the abilities don't come from her own power (It's possible they just need to be channeled through a weapon of some sort)."

 

[YungManzi]

@Lancer&Assalt

I'm already done with the Altair downgrade thread, but I'll post it when I wake up.

 

[Lancer45Man]

2) Her Abstraction is present on a Scale of 2B. Her sensing Medea isn't going to be a problem since she could locate the different Creations and go to them in the Multiverse. And you also haven't provided scans that Medea's true form exists outside Altair's 2-B/Possibly 2-A range

4) Causality Manipulation doesn't require to be channeled through a weapon of some sort??? Neither did she channel anything but flipped the effect and cause so that only Alice would be damaged.

No offense but I honestly don't think you have seen the series. Because if you did then we wouldn't even be having this conversation regarding even something as simple as the above Causality Manipulation stuff right now.

 

[YungManzi]

2) She already knew where they were, then teleported in their universe. There is no evidence to suggest that she found them via some kind of ability.

4) The attack was Alice's lance. But honestly this is a bit of a stretch and it's likely that she can do that without weapons.

 

[Lancer45Man]

2) She had to find them in first place throughout the 2-B sized Multiverse. She didn't just go like "Oh hey Selesia lives across the block and Kanoya on the outskirts, so I'll just drop in and get them here". Same reason as to how she came to the real world despite no one in the Multiverse knowing about the existence of the real world. Still waiting for scans that Medea's true form exists outside Altair's 2-B/Possibly 2-A range

4) It's the basics of Causality. The Attack was Alice's Lance. The Damage that was going to be inflicted on Altair was changed to Alice getting damaged. Same thing happens to Alice's punch that killed her.