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A Spooky Lil' Ghost vs A Ghost But Not Quite Although It's Still Pretty Close (Spooky vs Talion: 1 MORE VOTE LEFT)

QrowBarr

QrowBarr

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I hope it isn't a stomp.

  • Both are 8-A
  • Fight takes place in her mansio
  • Speed is equalized
  • Both are in-character
Epiko2
Talion by aosk26-d88r9w1.png
 
...

Spooky wins, right? Like... in character she floats out of reach and most attacks will just sorta go through her, as a Non-Corporeal (not intangible, mind) being. She can also just Soul Hax Talion.

Power Null is also a thing. But... yeah, she should be able to incap Talion, I think.
 
I don't know how good her powernull is but disabling the player's running seems... rather odd, because to me it sounds more like this. Doesn't he have soul manip?
 
1. IIRC Spooky just took away the ability from them, so I think it qualifies as Power Null. I've only actually watched the game every now and then. 2. He has Soul Manip in other keys, not 8-A. He can resist it, but that doesn't mean it'll hold out forever.
 
She tells the player that they can have infinite stamina, but can't use it. So Powernull doesn't sound too far fetch.

My memory is a bit hazey but iirc he was able to interact with the spirit of Saruman who was possessing the Queen of the Shore, might have to revise his profile again.
 
oh boi revisions

Check it out and lmk, that sounds right but then again anything sounds right kek. If so, make a CRT with links and shit, and when it's done, we shall continue the thread.
 
I hate to say that again, but Status Effect Inducement is not an ability on its own. You can't say "it's not Power Nullification, but Status Effect Inducement".
 
Fair point, though how often does she use it in-character?

I have to go to sleep now so i'll be back for this tomorrow.
 
She was never shown fighting, but she used it just to mess with the player, so she will most likely use it in combat.
 
Spooky tells Talion to stop running, then adds a new soul to her non-cute ghost army.
 
After some diggin', Talion doesn't haave soul manip in his first key nor Non-Physical Interaction, so he's gonna have a bad time.
 
Ok, Talion's soul resistance has just been amped up, so the tide of battle may have turned.
 
How good is it?
 
Soul resistance is Celebrimbor only though.

Talion would still die, but Spooky would be trapped with an annoying elf inside her head
 
Oh.

I mean I'd still consider that a win for Spooky, her combatant opponent is dead, she'd just be severely crippled.
 
I mentioned in a previous thread that Celebrimbor is capable of fighting back even with his "vessel" killed.
 
...

...Spooky is fighting Talion, though. If Celebrimbor cannot save Talion, Spooky still has won that fight. If Celebrimbor ends up killing Spooky that's a separate thing.
 
I mean...

Talion is reliant of Celebrimbor's existance, he'll still come back because wraith-boye resist soulhax.

Edit: Ninja'd, and that's not what I was trying to say.

See that? I just contradicted myself
 
He won't come back.

Talion would have died for good against the Black Hand, he only survived because he stabbed him and managed to free Celebrimbor.

Same at the beginning of SoW. Celebrimbor can help, but only if no one is restraining him
 
That is a good point. Hm.

So ultimately it comes down to these points.

Spooky:

  • Spooky Power Negging him by saying "lol you can't do that"
  • Spooky is able to affect souls and stuff. So she does have the potential to just kill Celebrimbor.
Talion:

  • Celebrimbor should be able to resurrect him, even if it takes 12 hours in most cases
  • Talion is certainly the better fighter of the two
  • Various other hax like mindhax
Verdict:

For now, I will shift my vote to Talion. I had legitimately completely forgotten about resurrection somehow don't judge me. But if they can resist being forced into a soul army, then Talion should be able to eventually kill Spooky.

EDIT: Seems like Celebrimbor cannot help if controlled, according to Kalt. That will literally decide my vote.
 
Wouldn't he die if him and Celeb aren't near eachother?
 
He would have died against the Black Hand despite Celeb being inside the latter's body so yes, probably
 
@Mr. Bambu

How though? Talion isn't getting pass her Non-corp and powernull, so far the only thing that could help him is resistance to soul manip.
 
PowerNull is a thing, to what degree it is I don't know.
 
She restricted the player's ability to run.
 
That's pretty much it, I asked Saikou (knowledgeable about the verse) about it and i'm still waiting for a reply.
 
Talion's mind hax at the beginning (i.e. his 8a profile) is limited to reading minds, which requires physical contact, and causing fear (via his drain skill), which does not require physical contact. His mind control doesn't become available until over halfway through the game, so I doubt that is included in the 8a profile. The teleport does become available in the first half of the game, and can probably be used, but it needs a living target for him to teleport to.

The only real question is if either of his two early ranged abilities or his wraith stun ability can hit a ghost (I haven't played the second game, so I don't know if he does this there, he doesn't face any non corporeal enemies in the first game). The bow is his more powerful ranged attack, and the arrows it uses are replenished by literally draining some form of energy from his enemies, and are not physical arrows. Unless these are shown hitting something non-corporeal in the second game then I doubt they can be considered effective against Spooky.

The second ranged attack he has is his short range version of Drain. This temporarily incapacitates and deals damage to a single enemy, although some enemies are immune. There is no obvious physical injury caused, yet it can kill most enemies in 2-4 uses, as well as apparently causing both pain and fear to the victim. It replenishes arrows, and so can be assumed to be removing some sort of energy from the victim. Again, not having played the second game I don't know if this can be used against non-corporeal enemies, but on the information I have available I can't say it will.

A *possible* third ranged attack is his specialised "ghost" throwing dagger, available as an ability but not gained by going through the story (and also not required by any side missions or bonus objectives, from memory). Again, the projectile itself is not physical but it is only used against physical enemies, and since it is optional and does not have any function outside giving Talion a short range attack that doesn't either take too long when in trouble or run out of ammunition, I don't think it really matters to the discussion.

Until at least one of these is confirmed to be able to hit ghosts, Talion can't even attack her in his 8A form.
 
He can dominate minds at 8-A. 7-A key is after you beat the Tower, who is near-end game
 
At the point he can dominate minds he has killed the Hammer, and is more than halfway from 8-A to 7-A. And nobody has confirmed if he can even use his brand against Spooky yet.

Anyway, how does Talion fight Spooky? For the most part he seems to go into fight Batman style; gather intelligence, identify weak point, then ambush with as many advantages as he can find. Combine with being extremely mobile and Spooky isn't going to get to fight him until he figures out a weakness, and I don't know if Talion can actually find one that he can exploit yet. It seems like either an eternal stand-off (Spooky is nowhere near skilled enough to track down Talion, and if he can't find a way to take her down he won't start a fight), or a stomp (if Talion can harm her then she'll never know what hit her).
 
It's mindhax, you don't need NPI to mindhax a ghost, I think.
 
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