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A Spooky Lil' Ghost vs A Ghost But Not Quite Although It's Still Pretty Close (Spooky vs Talion: 1 MORE VOTE LEFT)

Mr._Bambu

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...

Spooky wins, right? Like... in character she floats out of reach and most attacks will just sorta go through her, as a Non-Corporeal (not intangible, mind) being. She can also just Soul Hax Talion.

Power Null is also a thing. But... yeah, she should be able to incap Talion, I think.
 

Mr._Bambu

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1. IIRC Spooky just took away the ability from them, so I think it qualifies as Power Null. I've only actually watched the game every now and then. 2. He has Soul Manip in other keys, not 8-A. He can resist it, but that doesn't mean it'll hold out forever.
 

Steven_Pogi_Paitao

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She tells the player that they can have infinite stamina, but can't use it. So Powernull doesn't sound too far fetch.

My memory is a bit hazey but iirc he was able to interact with the spirit of Saruman who was possessing the Queen of the Shore, might have to revise his profile again.
 

Mr._Bambu

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oh boi revisions

Check it out and lmk, that sounds right but then again anything sounds right kek. If so, make a CRT with links and shit, and when it's done, we shall continue the thread.
 

Saikou_The_Lewd_King

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I hate to say that again, but Status Effect Inducement is not an ability on its own. You can't say "it's not Power Nullification, but Status Effect Inducement".
 

Steven_Pogi_Paitao

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Fair point, though how often does she use it in-character?

I have to go to sleep now so i'll be back for this tomorrow.
 

Saikou_The_Lewd_King

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She was never shown fighting, but she used it just to mess with the player, so she will most likely use it in combat.
 

Dargoo_Faust

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Spooky tells Talion to stop running, then adds a new soul to her non-cute ghost army.
 

Steven_Pogi_Paitao

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After some diggin', Talion doesn't haave soul manip in his first key nor Non-Physical Interaction, so he's gonna have a bad time.
 

Kaltias

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Soul resistance is Celebrimbor only though.

Talion would still die, but Spooky would be trapped with an annoying elf inside her head
 

Mr._Bambu

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Oh.

I mean I'd still consider that a win for Spooky, her combatant opponent is dead, she'd just be severely crippled.
 

Mr._Bambu

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...Spooky is fighting Talion, though. If Celebrimbor cannot save Talion, Spooky still has won that fight. If Celebrimbor ends up killing Spooky that's a separate thing.
 

Steven_Pogi_Paitao

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I mean...

Talion is reliant of Celebrimbor's existance, he'll still come back because wraith-boye resist soulhax.

Edit: Ninja'd, and that's not what I was trying to say.

See that? I just contradicted myself
 

Kaltias

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He won't come back.

Talion would have died for good against the Black Hand, he only survived because he stabbed him and managed to free Celebrimbor.

Same at the beginning of SoW. Celebrimbor can help, but only if no one is restraining him
 

Mr._Bambu

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That is a good point. Hm.

So ultimately it comes down to these points.

Spooky:

  • Spooky Power Negging him by saying "lol you can't do that"
  • Spooky is able to affect souls and stuff. So she does have the potential to just kill Celebrimbor.
Talion:

  • Celebrimbor should be able to resurrect him, even if it takes 12 hours in most cases
  • Talion is certainly the better fighter of the two
  • Various other hax like mindhax
Verdict:

For now, I will shift my vote to Talion. I had legitimately completely forgotten about resurrection somehow don't judge me. But if they can resist being forced into a soul army, then Talion should be able to eventually kill Spooky.

EDIT: Seems like Celebrimbor cannot help if controlled, according to Kalt. That will literally decide my vote.
 

Kaltias

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He would have died against the Black Hand despite Celeb being inside the latter's body so yes, probably
 

Steven_Pogi_Paitao

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@Mr. Bambu

How though? Talion isn't getting pass her Non-corp and powernull, so far the only thing that could help him is resistance to soul manip.
 

Steven_Pogi_Paitao

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That's pretty much it, I asked Saikou (knowledgeable about the verse) about it and i'm still waiting for a reply.
 
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Talion's mind hax at the beginning (i.e. his 8a profile) is limited to reading minds, which requires physical contact, and causing fear (via his drain skill), which does not require physical contact. His mind control doesn't become available until over halfway through the game, so I doubt that is included in the 8a profile. The teleport does become available in the first half of the game, and can probably be used, but it needs a living target for him to teleport to.

The only real question is if either of his two early ranged abilities or his wraith stun ability can hit a ghost (I haven't played the second game, so I don't know if he does this there, he doesn't face any non corporeal enemies in the first game). The bow is his more powerful ranged attack, and the arrows it uses are replenished by literally draining some form of energy from his enemies, and are not physical arrows. Unless these are shown hitting something non-corporeal in the second game then I doubt they can be considered effective against Spooky.

The second ranged attack he has is his short range version of Drain. This temporarily incapacitates and deals damage to a single enemy, although some enemies are immune. There is no obvious physical injury caused, yet it can kill most enemies in 2-4 uses, as well as apparently causing both pain and fear to the victim. It replenishes arrows, and so can be assumed to be removing some sort of energy from the victim. Again, not having played the second game I don't know if this can be used against non-corporeal enemies, but on the information I have available I can't say it will.

A *possible* third ranged attack is his specialised "ghost" throwing dagger, available as an ability but not gained by going through the story (and also not required by any side missions or bonus objectives, from memory). Again, the projectile itself is not physical but it is only used against physical enemies, and since it is optional and does not have any function outside giving Talion a short range attack that doesn't either take too long when in trouble or run out of ammunition, I don't think it really matters to the discussion.

Until at least one of these is confirmed to be able to hit ghosts, Talion can't even attack her in his 8A form.
 
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At the point he can dominate minds he has killed the Hammer, and is more than halfway from 8-A to 7-A. And nobody has confirmed if he can even use his brand against Spooky yet.

Anyway, how does Talion fight Spooky? For the most part he seems to go into fight Batman style; gather intelligence, identify weak point, then ambush with as many advantages as he can find. Combine with being extremely mobile and Spooky isn't going to get to fight him until he figures out a weakness, and I don't know if Talion can actually find one that he can exploit yet. It seems like either an eternal stand-off (Spooky is nowhere near skilled enough to track down Talion, and if he can't find a way to take her down he won't start a fight), or a stomp (if Talion can harm her then she'll never know what hit her).
 
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If that is the case, Talion gets within short range and wins. His ranged drain incapacitates the target and applies brand, and if it is allowed here the moment he uses it he wins, since we don't see anything save itself from the drain once it starts. Without mind hax resist Spooky is controlled.
 

Mr._Bambu

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Then this is a casual victory for Talion. Like there's pretty much nothing Spooky can do.
 

Mr._Bambu

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Unlikely. Talion takes this easily with soul manip being off the table. Spooky is kind of a one trick pony.
 

Mr._Bambu

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She just says "lol no" and pranks you into not being able to do whatever. Not super useful since she's only done it to running.
 

Dargoo_Faust

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Yeahhh, forgot how cocky Spooky is in the game; doesn't help that we never see her fight in the conventional sense.

She would be too busy being amused with the intimidating-looking ghost-like guy to really abuse her powers.

So, I guess I'll vote Talion FRA.

Question, though. Can't Spooky summon the different Specimens to fight her opponents for her?
 

Dargoo_Faust

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Didn't she create them?

Which is on her profile?

And we're using 8-A, which is under the assumption she made the mansion.

Summons/creations are totally allowed, which is why Red (Pokémon) isn't a wet noodle as a fighter.
 

Dargoo_Faust

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>fight takes place in her mansion

I'm switching back to Spooky.

She just teleports Talion to her specimens/summons them for kicks and giggles, until one of them inevitably kills him.
 

Dargoo_Faust

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Talion isn't getting past many of the passive haxes the specimens have.

Ressurecting won't really help you if youre body is taken over biologically, possed by another spirit (lol), BFR'ed, Mindhaxed, EE'd (PASSIVE EE ON TOUCH), I can go on.
 

Steven_Pogi_Paitao

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Most of these hax would require via contact.

Talion can literally take pot-shots at them because lol AP, he also resists being mindhaxxed and soulhaxxed.
 

Dargoo_Faust

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Pot-shots at non-corporeal characters, who passively interfere with his ability to perceive them?
 

Dargoo_Faust

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By... making contact with them.

Which would EE him, cause him to be possessed, etc. with, like, half of the specimens.
 

Dargoo_Faust

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And how often does he do that, compared to when he gets up close to mindhax them?

He also wouldn't be aware of many of the on-contact hax the specimens have.
 

Dargoo_Faust

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Teleporting her specimens is, however.

Also, view the video I linked; she can either summon them or teleport the player to them, or teleport them to the player, which is totally combat applicable.
 

Dargoo_Faust

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We're talking about Spooks teleporting Talion, not Talion teleporting himself.
 

Dargoo_Faust

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Yes, see the video I linked above.

Although what she does exactly can be debated, the result is the same: Talion having to deal with the specimens.
 
>inb4 this fight turns into Talion vs Spooky's specimens instead of a fight between the two of them.

Doesn't Talion have info analysis so he can learn which specimen is dangerous? He can just escape them without confronting the ones he can't fight.
 

Dargoo_Faust

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How does his info analysis work?

And he probably wouldn't have the benefit of doing that, seeing how fast Specimen 9 engages the player after Spooks brings it to the player/brings the player to it.

And no, it's pretty clear Spooky does that, seeing as she claims she has "one final challenge for them", and right after that the fight happens.

Eh, summoner matches play out like this all the time. This is mainly because Spooky gets to fight on her home-turf, where she can do this easily.
 

Dargoo_Faust

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No... we don't include game mechanics in any fight, let alone video game fights.

We don't include them on profiles, either, unless they're grounded in the lore (Darksign from Dark Souls, for example), are obviously just abilities the character has, etc.
 

Dargoo_Faust

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I believe they have lore justifications, but I am no expert on Final Fantasy.

Game mechanics is also case-by-case.
 

Steven_Pogi_Paitao

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I mean yeah... He can gain info about his opponents strengths but not weaknesses. And for the teleporting, the reason I believe that Spec 9 was behind that is because just right after Spooky said that, you hear Spec 9 in the backround before she leaves.

I could literally re-name this thread "Talion vs Spooky's Specimens" and nobody would probably notice
 
Okay, I'm gonna compile a list of Specimens that Talion can counter or atleast not engage in combat with before confronting Spooky herself. Please feel free to prove me wrong.

Specimen 4: I think ESP counters her perception manip and he can just influence the specimen to fight for Talion, since she doesn't have resistance to it.

Specimen 5: "Has difficult affecting those without mental trauma" Does Talion have mental trauma? I don't know. But Talion can just avoid this one with his time slow and gtfo

Specimen 7: "Can only attack those with mental trauma" Again, I don't know if Talion has PTSD or something.

Specimen 8: Talion is probably fucked here unless he uses time slow and then mind manip to control it once it gets near.

Specimen 9: Talion sees it from afar and uses his mind manip once it gets near. He's more likely to encounter the floating head than its boss form.

Specimen 10: Hallucinations won't matter here since it's the kind that changes his view of the area as long as Talion mind manips it first, gaining another specimen as an ally.

Specimen 11: Talion gets BFRd :(

Specimen 12: Once again, time slow and mind manip. He gains another ally.

There are many specimens and monsters that I have missed here, but these are the ones stated by Dargoo since he probably listed the ones with hax.
 

Steven_Pogi_Paitao

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"Does Talion have mental trauma?"

Yes, his entire family was killed before his eyes and their bodies used in some f*cked up ritual, so I think that counts though he eventually overcomes it after his fight with the Tower, who uses percep manip.
 

Steven_Pogi_Paitao

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Kinda, he gets pissed when it gets brought up but as I said before, he eventually overcame it.

As for BFR, it requires contact, he can mindhax a few distance apart.
 
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