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High 6-C Caladbolg and the Servants scaling implications.

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XenoBreaker2803

XenoBreaker2803

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First CRT let give this a try.

So since this

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:XenoBreaker2803/Caladbolg_Destroy_Laputa_(Fate)

bottom calc low end

has been deem usuable by Mr.Bambu. Let try scaling this.

This scale to most anyone with an A-rank Np or higher.

This would also most likely also scale to Caladbolg II. Meaning it would also Scale to Hercules. Which of course would cause a lot of revision considering how most everyone is somehow scaled off from Herc feat of deflecting Caladbolg II.
 
I don't think we can use this feat to scale.

Caladbolg was explicitly amped by special circumstances in this scene as it was an entirely different invocation (Caledfwlch Caladbolg: The Ultimate Spiral Sword vs the usual Caladbolg: The Spiral Rainbow Sword).
 
Amp how? Do you mean when Lily Fergus was using the magical energy from the magical box to amp himself. If so Fergus was just using that energy to draw out some part of his original existence.

________________________________________________________________________________

Grimacing in pain, Fergus explains further. If life and death truly are mixed together here, then it should be possible for him, the "Fergus Mac Roich on his way to adulthood, who does not exist", to be connected to the him that was supposed to be here, for an instant.

Da Vinci is impressed that he'd think to link "Fergus's death" and "Fergus's rebirth" together like that. She likens it to a voluntary pseudo-resummoning. Certainly, he would be able to come into contact with the concept of the "correct Fergus" for a second, but in that process, he would be damaging himself severely. How would he recover?

Fergus says it's alright: he has one of the treasure boxes from the undersea palace in hand. It is the same one Columbus had tried to use; having fallen from his hand, it had rolled towards Fergus's feet.


Fergus: There's no time. Let's go. I'll take in this pain and death--- and at that instant, use the magical energy in the box to regenerate myself. At the same time, in this gap, I'll try to drag out some part, any part of my original existence--- and make it mine!


Fergus shouts and holds out his blade.


Fergus: Stretch. Stretch, like a rainbow. It is infinite in length, yet still a sword. The rainbow sword of infinite length. This is--- the spiral sword! Therefore, the Spiral Rainbow Sword!


The short sword that Fergus once wielded now looks the same as the one his older counterpart uses. A spiral of rainbow light begins to form around him.


Fergus: Even with a wild swing brought about by anger, this sword can easily cleave apart three hills. In other words, it bears the meaning of "destroying the land"--- therefore, I will use this to destroy it altogether. The Pillar of the Demon God that is perplexed by eternal life and death. And beneath my feet, this floating earth that bears the name of fantasy!


All of the magical energy in the area is being sucked in by Fergus's rotating sword. And as it receives that energy, the sword begins to rotate even faster.


Fergus: Overflow, rainbow, beyond the spiral's horizon! ---CALEDFWLCH CALADBOLG (Ultimate Rainbow Sword)!

____________________________________________________________________________________

Base on this we can conclude that the Caladbolg used here was just it original strength if used by his adult counter part. In fact in the passage it even say that Fergus Lily sword was initially different but then transformed into the one used by his older counter part.
 
He's using Laputa's own magical energy to charge the attack. He would not be able to use this at all on his own and this attack explicitly severely damages him.
 
Lily can't use Calad on his own period. It pretty blatanly clear here base on the text above that he needed an external energy source in order to access the power of his Prime self. As for severely damaging him that just what happens as he is trying to gather magical energy to summon the power of his correct self also seems I am mistaken the magic box was to allow him to recover.

___________________________________________________________________________________

Da Vinci is impressed that he'd think to link "Fergus's death" and "Fergus's rebirth" together like that. She likens it to a voluntary pseudo-resummoning. Certainly, he would be able to come into contact with the concept of the "correct Fergus" for a second, but in that process, he would be damaging himself severely. How would he recover?

Fergus says it's alright: he has one of the treasure boxes from the undersea palace in hand. It is the same one Columbus had tried to use; having fallen from his hand, it had rolled towards Fergus's feet.

____________________________________________________________________________________

Again as said above the amping process that hurting him is to just allow him to summon the strength of his 'correct self' aka older Fergus. Nothing else.
 
I also think that Reppuzan seems to make sense.
 
Repp argument is that Lily Ferg Calad doesn't scale because he was amp by Laputa when that happened.

I went back to the source found here https://amp.reddit.com/r/grandorder/comments/6neq81/epic_of_remnant_ii_the_woman_of_agartha_section/

The scene of Lily Fergus breaking Laputa. There's seem to be no moment when Laputa is mentioned be amping Ferg in anyway exept before he shout out his incantatiin. What happening is Lily jump into a weird poison swamp that causes him to be in some weird loop of death and rebirth. Using this loop he is trying to tap into some of Older Ferg power.

Scene that I cited before, above, happens and before Fergus shout out his true name release, the sword absorb power from the land. We get like one or two line mentioning this at all.

I still maintain the stance that this is simply Calad true power considering how he we get one or two line emphasizing about how Calad absorb power from the land and everything else is about Lily tapping into his older version power via the cycle of death and rebirth.

And then even so Calad is stated to be the prototype for other Np such as galatine.

Sorry if this a mess ,on a phone
 
@Xeno

But it isn't Adult Fergus' Noble Phantasm.

Adult Fergus' Noble Phantasm is Caladbolg: The Rainbow Sword. Fergus Lily used Caledfwlch Caladbolg: The Ultimate Rainbow Sword.

It's an entirely different Noble Phantasm invocation activated under extremely special circumstances.

Not to mention the fact that this would rip apart our current power-scaling.
 
Let ignore that last part for now since that is a completely unrelated can of worms.

Yes it not Adults Np but nothing implies here that it would be so many time stronger than the original that not only does it not scale to adult Ferg Np but also that it doesn't scale to stuff like Galatine which again Caladbolg as a whole is the prototype for.

For all we know the original could possibly be capable of this too. In fact things seem to actually point toward the fact that the original could do this, considering how much emphasis there is that Fergus Lily is trying to tap into Ferg power. He had to go through an entire process of putting himself in the middle of a poisonous swamp to enter a loop of death and rebirth where he was continuously damaging himself just to apparently draw out and I quote.

I'll try to drag out some part, any part of my original existence--- and make it mine!

Plus if it was that many times stronger than the OG than would it not become a Broken Phantasm? Which it didn't by the way.

At the absolute least. Assuming that this Calad is that many Leagues above the Original that you can't in any form or way compare the two. This feat would probably still scale to stuff like Galatine, Excalibur, Pashupata, and any other comparable Np
 
Agree with Repp that it can't be used, given that Fergus was given extra magical power from a Grail and that it's not really representative of the actual Caladbolg.
 
What Grail? You mean Columbus box? Which he used to regenerate himself since Fergus Looping of Death and Rebirth was badly damaging himself.
 
@Xeno

"Original Existence" likely refers to the original Fergus.

Servant containers can only utilize so much of the original's actual power in many cases.

@Matt

Considering the nature of Pashupata, the cloud generation and dispersal isn't really conducive to the actual output of the attack.
 
@Repp

"Fergus Mac Roich on his way to adulthood, who does not exist", to be connected to the him that was supposed to be here

pseudo-resummoning. Certainly, he would be able to come into contact with the concept of the "correct Fergus"

Considering the context above and how Da-Vinci straight up say psuedo-resummoning? Yeah no, their definitely referring to servants here. Adult Fergus should have been the one at Argatha but Sherazade did some funny business to turn him young.
 
@Xeno

It doesn't change the fact that this is not adult Fergus's Noble Phantasm.

We can't scale an extraordinary Noble Phantasm used during extraordinary circumstances.
 
XenoBreaker2803 said:
Link to that thread?
Click to expand...
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2005110

about Pashupata thing, after watched Extella Link videos in youtube, its seen that to break through into Karl's area (on Carolus Patricius) Arjuna needed to use Pashupata, which aftereffect was able to annihilate entire sector as confirmed by Tamamo.

also, Karna said to Gilles that as both are Servants powered by Karl der Grosse and also have been Oracle'd by Karl, if both Karna and Gilles were to fight, Carolus Patricius (Karl's bigass flying fortress) won't be just lightly damaged, implying that both might posses firepower to destroy some considerable parts of Carolus Patricius.

its also said that Karl told Charlemagne to **** off upon their summoning, and Charlemagne did agree that he did ran away from Karl. implying that Karl is more powerful than his fantasy counterpart.

Karl's Carolus Patricius Auctoritas also possess two Magic Cores, which made it difficult to defeat (by team of 5 Servants I think) from gameplay perspective.

now if only I could calc how large Carolus Patricius is....
 
@Repp

Again even if we treated this as an NP that totally out of normal Caladbolg complete league. The mere fact that Calad is the prototype Np for thing like Galatine which has always been portrayed as superior to as far as I can tell Calad makes this feat extremely scalable.
 
@Xeno

We don't even know the rank of Caledfwlch Caladbolg nor if his normal Servant form is capable of using it.
 
@Repp

Again we are not given any reason to believe that this new Calad is stronger. Especially when this is being used by a younger Fergus who is trying to gain access to Older Ferg power. We are instead led to believe that this is something that Adult Ferg could do if anything base on the translation above.

Also again as the prototype of Np like Galatine that always been shown to be better. Why in any capacity should we think that this new Caladbolg is honestly stronger than stuff like Galatine, Excalibur, Pashupata, Clarent, Balmung, etc.
 
@Xeno

You're making assumptions about a completely different Noble Phantasm than the main Caladbolg.

Yes, Caledfwlch is speculated to be the prototype of Excalibur Galatine, but again, we have no idea if adult Fergus can use this because he has never been seen using this.
 
@Repp

Your right we do never get to see Older Ferg use this. However this Ferg is quite literally a younger, less experience, weaker version of Old Ferg. He even in the same exact class and is using the same sword as Ferg. Only difference is the incantation. So why would a younger version be able to exclusively use a technique? When the only reason he can use this technique in the first place is because he tapping into the power of his older self. The entire reason Lily Ferg threw himself into a poison swamp in the first place was so that he can gain the power of his older self to properly use this technique. Everything points to the fact that Older Ferg is by all mean capable of using this technique because if not why would Ferg throw himself into a poison swamp in order to tap into his older self power. If he could use this on his own that completely defeats the purpose.

Anyway getting really late where I am, so see you are in a couple of hours.
 
@XenoBreaker

True Names are everything in the Nasuverse.

Having a different True Name can drastically alter the effects of the Noble Phantasm.

Gae Bolg: Gouging Spear of Carnage, is rated higher than Gae Bolg: The Soaring Spear That Strikes With Death even though they originate from the same source.

It's a different Noble Phantasm and it would rip apart our current powerscaling. We can't just say that we'll just have to rescale everyone willy-nilly.
 
@Repp

Pretty sure we been here before. Have we been here before? Who know maybe that just morning getting to me.

No one is denying this Calad is different because of the true name incantation. However what I am arguing for like the 5th time now is what makes this Calad so special that it can't be scaled to quite literally anything at all. Not itself, when it not even a broken phantasm so this can't be that extreme of a boost if anything it more align with the norm considering how it didn't break, Not Galatine which Calad is the prototype for, not Excalibur the strongest Holy sword in history, etc. It a bit special but once you start playing connect the dots it not out of this world special.

Again the mere fact that Calad as a whole was used as the proto for stuff like Galatine instantly makes this pretty scaleable.

This Caladbolg is different but it no special snowflake that is beyond anything we have ever seen before. What rank do you think it is EX? I have re-read the text above and nothing makes me immediately think that this is some secret last hidden technique of Calad. Once more everything in the text makes me think it more aligned with the norm because the entire point of jumping into a poison swamp was that Lily Ferg could reach his normal adult level and no mention of anything else.
 
@Xeno

I'm not saying that Caladbolg is a "special snowflake".

Having different True Names almost always leads to drastically altered effects even for the "same" Noble Phantasm.

Gae Bolg: The Barbed Spear that Pierces With Death, has a completely different effect from Gae Bolg: The Soaring Spear That Strikes With Death. Caladbolg II is utilized completely differently from the original Caladbolg.

I'm not speculating anything about ranks. I'm stating as a fact that we don't have enough information on this Noble Phantasm to draw any conclusions on top of the scaling problems it would create.
 
We have enough info base on a quick game of connect the dots to know that we have no reason to believe that this Caladbolg which seem to work near the exact same as the normal one ,base on the scene, should be stronger than the various Np I have stated above.

Also Gae Bolg isn't the only dual name Np and even then name different because they are completely different technqiue. This case is much much much closer to Lord Camelot and Lord Chaldea. We have no reason to believe this Calad isn't either a stronger or weaker version than the normal one base on context clue. There is nothing in that passage that say the different between the 2 Calads is as great as Gae Bolg. There context clue to instead lead us the believe that this is a simply a name variation due to the fact that this is simply a younger version of Ferg trying to use his older power.

Also once again the mere fact that Calad entire existence being the prototype for stuff like Galatine make it instantly scaleable.
 
I'm going to wait for more input on this because our arguments are going circular.
 
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