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Man thing Upgrade

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Hykuu

Hykuu

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The Cosmic Fire was revealed to be Termineus, implying a High 1-B AP for the Fallen Stars without any amping . Keep in mind Termineus wasn't amped when he did this, and neither was he at his maximum power.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/SCVP042_xW...fJ0Gagc-H8kLr8tmJ1dxkLj40sfP2PMvr0AQAg5=s1600

Ka'dmon also harmed Termineus without any effort, again with no significant amp.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/d9fWhboxQf...jUtqUgMyDwDk1GVvi4ZkCo0WO7jvNmGN0Xq_yb5=s1600

Ted Salis rejection of Reality also caused the end of the dream, along with Franklin's Counter-Earth incident, caused what happened.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/6siah3zRFJ...LGff17bEEb8xcwMe2aZycH4ootRahPGjlMvU-77=s1600

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/3bnLacBsrP...agnQwtGYW6j6icHJDwTCKO2RPYCxcRaT8xdpMcV=s1600 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/37EHa5YHEj...YPvRkVazDs-IEYGxrmH9yAoD2E4fYjUe0L2H7wq=s1600

Then another statement stating every Level of Creation .

Cosmic Fire that was echoing through all levels of creation was also destroying all levels of creation

Specifically, it's this quote in particular.

https://s33.postimg.cc/qinl8mzgv/ABV5sxc_Hinim.jpg

The Creator is connected to everything within the dream, including all the higher-dimensions and such , implying High 1-B . Even being connected to God's subconsciousness makes you one with all time and space.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/XpY7rOitBE...MvAXj0pNNcNIHChF64fNLsr9JqAAggnLjIa6Rf6=s1600 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/lPXupYMa00..._60qcT3BH6O_-PCg696gQkIx3JQLP0Eis90o1dl=s1600 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/IQh13EGSix...GjMNAj_XJvzRP9T4ohR8qsXHaRq_XWqxD442sy-=s1600 K'ad mon = Creator Post strange tales man thing = K'ad mon The Cosmic Fire was revealed to be Termineus, implying a High 1-B AP for the Fallen Stars without any amping . Keep in mind Termineus wasn't amped when he did this, and neither was he at his maximum power.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/SCVP042_xW...fJ0Gagc-H8kLr8tmJ1dxkLj40sfP2PMvr0AQAg5=s1600

Ka'dmon also harmed Termineus without any effort, again with no significant amp.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/d9fWhboxQf...jUtqUgMyDwDk1GVvi4ZkCo0WO7jvNmGN0Xq_yb5=s1600

Ted Salis rejection of Reality also caused the end of the dream.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/6siah3zRFJ...LGff17bEEb8xcwMe2aZycH4ootRahPGjlMvU-77=s1600

Cleito, a fellow Fallen Star member, is one with all places and things, which would include every level of creation and reality , should include a realm is time before time , whete time and space is only limited by your mind , Void before the World of Forms , AND Eternity's Realm [ Considering it's a place that was mentioned within Strange Tales originally before it was revealed what the Realm was in-fact ] and a few other places mentioned in the comic ] . DO keep in mind that

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/xvKC3QUTYN...TDi8xUv9WDGnFpvGuVb_HXrKABzcBA7xxy2RUVk=s1600 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/o4aXNqnzYF...u0BiTvI2stdv0x6eRkPj_lScVDZm45sM1uc0CDo=s1600 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/I555IlbElH...WwlxU-firbg33tV2EkWCKEMfJE5N48EhagfjvjU=s1600 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/ROGB6TBN-X...y11Tcn3Zmw1cFy2LLxRgb1IaLJcpW3hrAi4sCei=s1600 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/1ZLdPSWMiL...Ll5FPIul1ssAqXaBhrUpIBSA3Qn_JxHHcS1BgbY=s1600 https://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Strange_Tales_Vol_1_146

Man-Thing is One with the Om-Point, in which all dimensions, realities are one with.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/15RuEAOJxQ.../s33.postimg.cc/p985ceu1b/c6n_VN59_Te3p_C.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/15RuEAOJxQ...72eRhgGoT5cYdKAZfVofqj5b17VxbKWZt1Io8w4=s1600

https://s33.postimg.cc/p985ceu1b/c6n_VN59_Te3p_C.jpg

(Note the use of of a conjunction)

Conclusion: High 1-B.

also since the nexus was already accepted as high 1-B nd ted became one with it he should scale.
 
... You repeated a few things . Also, yeah... Before I'd like for the 1-A stuff involving this topic, I'd like for the High 1-B stuff to be accepted by the majority.
 
We all know that the creator has a dream that contains infinite Dreams.

Here is also stated that time is nonexist. (The creator in strange tales already stated he dreams the concept of time.)

The Nexus of reality is a place that isn't a place that is every place . The place where time and space, dream and illusions collide. In the fabric of infinity

Sanity and Logic melts there. It's the sea of everything the sky of nothing . Also is all of reality on every plane of existence

So every thought, every dream, of every creature alive and dead

The library that has every book of philosophy and religion.

A quantum reality .

Layers of Dreams

there is even a book where it pages contains multi dimensional realityand has the history of all beings in the beginningless beginng to the endless end of creation (and contains all ideas and concepts in it) and this is still within the nexus of all reality ( the creator dream). (multi dimensional = higher dimension)
 
Bump .

Since this thread is made ... Might as well go over everything in a nice and organized manner.

Main Overview
Hello. Today I'll go over a few things today.

  • Man-Thing having two keys. One of them is "Pre-Fallen Stars", the other will be "Post-Fallen Stars"
  • Portrayals of Creator & Maya being identical to their Hindiusm counterparts.
  • The Top and God-tiers of Marvel obtaining a "possibly 1-A" addition due to scaling to the Nexus.
  • Canonicity of these events
  • Scaling between the Fallen Stars
  • Scaling the Fallen Stars to the Cosmic Abstracts
Main Points

Hierarchy Feats
In terms of cosmology, Every Level of Creation and All Levels of Reality were directly stated in the Strange Tales Comics:

(Both of these usually show High 1-B levels, as we know there are infinite levels of creation . DeMetteis also showed this as well, during the Defenders 2005 Comic as well as Chaos King Arc, both of which he personally wrote, and all 3 of those comics reference the dream... So their cosmology should be completely identical.)

Explicit Hindiusm References

Reasoning for new Keys
Before the Fallen Stars incident, Man-Thing was portrayed to be Ted Salis, a regular man who through accident became the Man-Thing

Post-Fallen Stars, not only was Ted Salis revealed to be the Keeper of the Dream, but also directly stated to be a Man of Lineage, one of which keeps the dream alive along with his son, Job Burke , who also has this ability . He is no longer the Man-Thing Post-Strange Tales, as shown in Peter Parker Annual 1999 . He is one with the Nexus, shown during the beginning of Peter Parker Annual 1999 . Ka'dmon is now offically the Man-Thing .


Ka'dmon is directly stated to be equal of the Creator, and if anyone can kill him, so can the Creator . This is important as it was directly stated that the Creator's consciousness is one with every plane, every being, all time and space

Cleito also has a similar nature, the weakest of the Fallen Stars , which would scale her to the following realms, but also Eternity's Realm due to it's origins being not only from DeMetteis, but also offically from a Strange Tales comic, created by DeMatteis . Also, the comic that directly defines what Eternity's Realm is, Defenders 2005, is a comic that DeMetteis made .

Canonicity of the Fallen Stars
Directly referenced Heroes Reborn [the 1st part,the 2nd part of Heroes Reborn is when Franklin + Man-Thing meet again]

Ellen Burke and Ted Salis shwoing up only as the Fallen Stars ... A year later, blending in perfectly with the 1999 Comics , implying Ted Salis & Ka'dmon both left being Man-Thing to be permanently within the Nexus . It also remembers Ka'dmon , which is incredibly important for what occurred in Heroes Reborn .

Scaling between the Fallen Stars and the Men of Lineage
(From Weakest to Strongest)

Cleito

Ka'dmon/Man-Thing
Stated to be the father of the Fallen Stars, and a threat to the Creator & his comparative equal . Also stated to be stuck between Infinity and Humanity , and the Book of Life, which everything in it should scale to Ka'dmon, including all things that existed within it, which would include Eternity's Realm . Stated to maintain the Dream of Existence

Ka'dmon, given a amp from all the Fallen Stars prior, he can give Spider-Man enough power to fight off the Outrider, who was one with the Nexus at the time.

Job Burke, someone stated beyond the comprehension of Ka'dmon, was completely fodderized when a 10-C possessed a mere fragment of the Nexus' power

  • https://2.bp.blogspot.com/hQOY8lWlw...-4B9CmlyKN8VYOEnsfHbRZYKqauaXa3UnXVKDYz=s1600
  • From the Marvunapp itself, which DeMetteis gave to the author Issue 4 of Strange Tales Vol 4 : "While Termineus taunted Sorrow, K'ad-Mon, Sallis, and the other Fallen Stars, he simultaneously generated a duplicate of himself that confronted Owen Jackson, posing as an angel and convincing him that he was needed to fight as a soldier for the Lord. Termineus gave Jackson the "Sword of Righteousness," empowering him with the last remaining Nexus fragment.Meanwhile, K'ad-Mon had re-formed Ted Salis as a whole, intact being outside of the Man-Thing. The K'ad-Mon-possessed Man-Thing prepared to send Job home and claim the necklace containing the Nexus fragments, but Jackson them emerged, roaring like a demon from Hell, slew Job with his Sword"
Then proceeded to amp himself using the Nexus'

Scaling the Cosmic Abstracts to Fallen Stars & Men of Lineage

Well-Fed Galactus, Scrier, and Franklin Richards
Scrier's Superiority to the Fallen Stars [Remember him, Child Franklin, Adult Franklin, and Well-Fed Galactus are all at least somewhat comparable in power]

Daydreamers, which takes place Post-Heroes Reborn , Strange Tales , and Man-Thing Comics involving the Fallen Stars, confirm that Franklin overloaded Man-Thing using extremely causal usage of his reality warping abilities . Keep in mind his body could handle the massive amps mentioned above , which put him so far above the Fallen Stars and Men of Lineage, including being one with the Nexus itself .

Conclusion
We can assume that they are "possibly 1-A" due to quite a few areas:

  • Scaling them to Dream, which contains everything from the beginningless beginning to the end of all things, which would include Eternity's Realm.
  • Scaling the Creator/Brahman and Maya/Cleito/Atman to their Hindiusm counterparts, which would also place them at 1-A.
  • Scaling to Scrier predating the Dream of Creation , which would include predating the void before the World of Forms.
 
You can ask Matthew and Sandman31 to comment here if you wish, but I doubt that Matthew has the energy to try to make sense of this.
 
Antvasima said:
You can ask Matthew and Sandman31 to comment here if you wish, but I doubt that Matthew has the energy to try to make sense of this.
Click to expand...
Whats up with you hiding behind other people when you can't debunk something? Trying to scale man thing to spiderman is one of the dumbest thing here aswell lol, hes consistently above that.
 
I have to handle over a hundred tasks here every day. I am not trying to hide behind others. I am trying to delegate to people whose judgements I trust regarding different topics when I do not have the time and energy to check through various demands.
 
Anyway, when it comes to Marvel, all major revisions are put on hold until Mathew finds the time to deal with them.
 
@Hykuu... One... That isn't the way to ask someone to do anything . Two... He's dealt with me, and doesn't neccessarily want to look through this in fear of me overexaggerating the evidence and doing all of this for merely nothing , because of walls of text I did in the past with nothing substantial being in it, and being a total waste of time to others . He has every reason not to deal with me directly... And even him talking this long to me is a blessing, as I'm usually ignored for a month before even getting a single response.
 
.... Like the above, Lucky, he doesn't like dealing with this without Matthew Schroeder. He's the one in charge of main marvel revisions like this. Secondly, can we all please stop with the derailing... Because this is getting derailed... And derailed threads usually get closed before a consensus or even attempt at one is even made.
 
I don't have the time and energy to directly evaluate almost any content revisions nowadays unless nobody else is available, and do not want to mess with Matthew's planned upcoming revisions.

I had to wait for over 1.5 years until the Naruto revisions started. I think that you will have to show long-term patience as well.
 
Also, given all of the inherent massive contradictions, I have a very hard time trying to make sense of Marvel, so I prefer if people whose judgements I trust handle it.
 
Did you ask Matthew and Sandman31 about this?
 
Sandman31, as stated before, he agrees with the Creator [ Who Ka'dmon , Nexus of All Realities , and the others mentioned above scale to ] and Lords of Shamballa being 1-A .

Matthew I never asked. I'll probably do it, but I expect it to be ignored most likely.
 
Did Sandman31 agree about any other characters scaling from the Creator?
 
The reason why I'm uncertain with the scaling is because I really doubt that Ka'dmon is comparable to the Creator given that even he himself is just a dream of the Creator

It said that the thoughts of Ka'dmon is as "high as God" and that the one who killed Ka'dmon may even be a threat to the Creator

The first statement about Ka'dmon's being as high as God doesnt necessarily means that he is comparable to God, it could very well be referring to him being both a "dream and a dreamer"

Its just that I am EXTREMELY uncertain in scaling so many characters, including characters who are supposedly inside the Creator's dream

Scaling so many characters who doesnt have any 1-A feats to the Creator is something that I'm uncomfortable with, as it just doesnt make any sense for the supposedly Cosmic Dreamer be fodder compared to its dreams
 
Anyway, all I'm against is is scaling so many characters to the Creator, making it seems like he is some sort of fodder. Also, if they are really as powerful or more powerful than the Creator then I doubt that they would have that much trouble destroying the dream of the Creator. The Silver Surfer also fought with the Man-Thing w/ the Staff there, though Man-Thing seems to have the upperhand, he was still incased in a cocoon of power cosmic by the SS

Edit: I'm not disagreeing with an upgrade, what I'm disagreeing with is scaling so many characters to the Creator, making it appears that the Creator is a fodder
 
Sandman31 said:
Anyway, all I'm against is is scaling so many characters to the Creator, making it seems like he is some sort of fodder. Also, if they are really as powerful or more powerful than the Creator then I doubt that they would have that much trouble destroying the dream of the Creator. The Silver Surfer also fought with the Man-Thing w/ the Staff there, though Man-Thing seems to have the upperhand, he was still incased in a cocoon of power cosmic by the SS

Edit: I'm not disagreeing with an upgrade, what I'm disagreeing with is scaling so many characters to the Creator, making it appears that the Creator is a fodder
Click to expand...
Man thing destroyed the dream just by rejecting it,lol He also was one with the nexus which is a threat to the creator.
 
Firstly ... To a extent, Sandman31, I agree with some of your statements about the Creator. However, I don't neccessarily believe Silver Surfer being able to beat Ka'dmon Empowered Man-Thing should be a anti-feat for Ka'dmon , so much of a massive outlier for Silver Surfer ... In the same sense we have done for the fight between Dormammu vs Multi-Eternity , Phoenix and God Emperor Doom, Beyonder vs Phoenix Force , Uatu vs Celestials , or Strange vs Beyonder .

It was still stated however that Base Ka'dmon being defeated means that someone is a likely threat to the Creator. They still should be somewhat comparable in tier through that statement alone. Maybe not equal, but still being in the same tier of strength. Sort of like BoG SSG Goku & Beerus being on the God scale, but Beerus being unimaginably above SSG Goku .

To a extent is the key words though.

Ted Salis and Job Burke both were implied as capable of completely destroying the dream [Ted actually did it] . Most of the others who do scale above them don't even know about the dream, so they can't neccessarily 'destroy it' if they are unaware of it .

Even Franklin Richards [Without his conscious awareness] was stated indirectly by Strange that he originally shattered the Nexus and caused the end of the Dream / All Things [ Which would scale to the Eternity's Realm anyways ] , because this happened because of the Heroes returning from Counter-Earth.... So yeah, people have been shown to affect the dream in some form or fashion .

At best , this scales to Multi-Abstract Level entities and those who have shown feats comparable to them . Which keep in mind isn't a lot of profiles. Even then, it's a 'possibly 1-A' added... Not replacing the High 1-B w/ a 1-A tier instead.

Secondly, If that is debunked, allow me to go into another method: Via scaling to the Fallen Stars & Men of Lineage :

- The Fallen Stars are the very embodiments of the Dream essentially. Explained in Strange Tales III or IV

- The Fallen Stars and Men of Linage don't have any problems, and since Man-Thing was shown to have remembered what happened during that timeframe, and despite this, Chaos King and the Cosmics [Specifically the Celestials] were implied above the Fallen Stars during the events of Chaos War & Heroes Reborn [Part 2] .

- Both Job and Ted were viewing all of the dream as a dream, and both were stated that if they stopped viewing it as such, everything in the dream would collapse . Even when the Nexus tried to destroy everything, Ted managed to keep the Dream alive by viewing it as a dream . He stopped after being convinced by Termineus , which resulted in the dream collapsing everything .

- As Men of Lineage, they are stated to have this ability Their dreams are above the others dreams... As if that weren't the case, reality would've since been destroyed already because the normal folk don't believe they are in a dream whatsoever.

- The difference is between those two, is that Ted views Job as a dream, while Job views everything else as a dream, including the Fallen Stars and the Nexus, as they were destroyed. Remember Job, someone who views everything as a dream, fell effortlessly to a human wielding a fragment of it . Here is how it would go [Weakest to Strongest] :

- Cleito [Her mere consciousness connects to Eternity's Realm + other 1-A realms due to them being apart of the Dream]

- Ka'dmon [Stated to be the father of the Fallen Stars, and is well above the others in power]

- Job [Men of Lineage powers] : Views Eternity's Realm & other 1-A's such as the Fallen Stars and Ka'dmon as a dream due to his nature as a Men of Lineage .

- Nexus: A mere fragment efforlessly stomped Job. As a whole, should be incomprehensibly above it all

- Ted Salis' [Men of Lineage powers] : Effortlessly survived the Nexus attempting to destroy everything , and kept all of existence alive by viewing it as a dream still, once he let loose , everything was destroyed, the 1-A realms , the Fallen Stars and the Nexus . Viewing Job as a dream, brought Job back to life .

Man-Thing fears the Celestials in Part 2 of Heroes Reborn despite in the former scans I showed that he remembers being Ka'dmon and the events of Peter Parker Annual 1999 , and he was subconsciously overloaded with energies by Franklin Richards despite the fact he's cannoically handled the energies of [Ted Salis, Ka'dmon, all the Fallen Stars, and the Nexus] combined to fight off a powerful entity .

So, the cosmics scaling to this was implied literally directly after and directly before the events of the Fallen Stars/Men of Lineage
 
Statement not backed by any feats means little though, I can see a possibly High 1-B but not really 1-A. What I'm opposed is scaling anyone from the Creator, because frankly, it doesnt make sense for me.

Also, since it seems like you're aiming to upgrade Eternity and the Abstracts as well, then you should contact Matthew since he's the one handling the Marvel revisions
 
>Man thing destroyed the dream just by rejecting it,lol He also was one with the nexus which is a threat to the creator.

Ted Sallis shattered the Nexus because he rejected his role as a the man of thlineage. The Nexus being a threat to the Creator also doesnt make sense considering the Nexus is inside the Creator's dream.
 
Yeah. I already had a blatant response to your first part. And I already told Hykuu the Nexus scaling to the Creator is questionable.

To quote myself: " Even when the Nexus tried to destroy everything , Ted managed to keep the Dream alive by viewing it as a dream . He stopped after being convinced by Termineus , which resulted in the dream collapsing everything " ... So he did destroy the Dream.
 
I'm answering based on the assumption that the "dream" is time and space can you give the scans about Eternity's realm?
 
I'll look through this again to get an actual opinion on the scans, but I will say that scaling characters who are explicitly bound by some form of space/time to 1-A via a character from a single arc who never actually appears and is supposed to be some supreme deity is a big no. That's just in regards to trying to use this as some sort of scaling to Eternity or whatever, and not the scans themselves. I'll look through, now.
 
Before I answer your question Sandman ... Can I ask one of my own ? Here are a list of realms within the Dream itself , May I ask what tier would you give each of them [ If they can even be given a tier ] ? :

This is True Atlantis, a realm that is stated directly to be part of the dream [the first Cleito is explicitly one with] ,"Time before Time Existed ,Timeless , Time and Space have no Meaning but the Limits Humanity Places on it . Ocean of Nothingness ; Consciousness without Form "

"Void before the World of Forms "[The Beginningless Beginning mentioned to be part of the Dream] ,

" A realm beyond all sense of Individual identity "

@Azathoth

Wow ... I didn't know you responded. My apologies . Like I said, I gave up on scaling them to the Creator . He technically is referenced later on though... I'll say that . Thor references him during the Chaos War, and describe his consciousness perfectly . In The Incredible Hulk Comic & Peter Parker Annual 1999 they reference the events that take place in these comics, so it isn't like this was only just one thing that happened and that was it. Plus it's suppose to be canon to Heroes Reborn as well... Which I already explained above. So it is canon. How they scale from it... That's a whole together different story.
 
@Seed

My main issue with the Creator in general is that he's supposed to be some "non-denominational creator being" according to WoG.

"The Creator referred to in the Man-Thing/Strange Tales stories was supposed to be the Abrahamic God (or, more correctly, some non-denominational creator being)."

Marvel already has something like this, while more specific creators are treated as lesser entities/skyfathers, at times.

Is there something in particular that is supposed to differentiate it from being DeMatteis' portrayal of "TOAA" (it's not like TOAA is always called TOAA during its appearances)? I don't believe this entity is ever portrayed as within the story as being something "below" something else, let alone sub-Eternity level or whatever.

However, as you said it's not part of the overall scaling, then I will take a look at the other stuff.
 
I think DeMatteis has said he intended for the Creator to be The-One-Above-All. I think there was a story DeMatteis wrote where the Lords of Shamballa surpassed the duality of "creation/the Creator".
 
@Azzy

Basically I'm now trying to scale them to the Fallen Stars now, instead of the Creator. There is only one statement that puts the Creator & Ka'dmon at "comparative" levels... But considering the contradictions I tried my best to ignore that tidbit and completely revamp the scaling attempt... To something much more feasible in hindsight. Also, like mentioned above, I have no problem with the Fallen Stars and those who scale above them as "possibly High 1-B" [ Which I can also see as it is much more consistent in hindsight , and would only make the Cosmics higher degrees of High 1-B than they already are ] if the "1-A" aspect isn't accurate. If it isn't, sorry for wasting your time.

Once Sandman responds, I'll go into what Sandman asked for, and if that isn't accurate, I'll just go with High 1-B .
 
@Hadou The Lords of Shamballa were said to be one with everything, the Creator, the Creation , the Dream etc. If you read enough of Dematteis work then you can see a pattern and he obviously intends the Lords of Shamballa to be the Atman, the divine essence within all things (that is released upon death or if you strip away the "dream") that is both one with Creator and Creation, its one with all things. The divine essence within all things, its basically the "universal self"
 
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