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some resistances in dragon ball super

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HrishikeshM

HrishikeshM

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it is very strange to me that goku has resistance to time stop yet vegeta and other stronger characters dont. same goes for existence erasure...

there are enough proofs that resistances to these abilities are gained by increasing the ki...more ki more resistance...

this should scale to other characters...should it not???
 
I guess, but don't resistance to existence erasure goes on a case by case basis.

To assume energy of destruction is equal in function to being wiped out by something like the infinity gauntlet is incorrect, they are not the same.

The only definitive way to have "true" existance erasure against all types no matter how they function is to demonstrate Mid-Godly Regenerationn, which no DBZ character has afaik.

But your proposed revisions make sense I suppose, just keep my above statement in mind.
 
obviously existence erasure is not the same throughout fiction and there are different levels... even if goku has resistance to it he can still be erased by zeno...so i am not proposing a case for immunity to existence erasure...its just simple resistance which can be overcome by more potent existence erasure
 
Pretty sure that this was brought up before. Not by you, but still. And the answer was and still is no. We don't grant resistances due to AP. Vegeta's gotta price this stuff himself, just like how Goku doesn't have mind resistance from Vegeta.
 
@Cal

I've got a question then.

In some VS threads, I've seen people bring up the AP = Resistance thing.

EX: Kefla should be able to resist Hit's Time-Stop because she's so much more powerful him than him, like Goku or Jiren.

Considering we don't grant resistances based on power alone and a character must demonstrate their resistances, should that be considered a valid argument? Cuz, it kind feels like a double standard.
 
The real cal howard said:
Pretty sure that this was brought up before. Not by you, but still. And the answer was and still is no. We don't grant resistances due to AP. Vegeta's gotta price this stuff himself, just like how Goku doesn't have mind resistance from Vegeta.
Click to expand...
thats how many verses handle hax...true... but it is not a universal rule...every verse is flexible and free to follow their own rules... and in dragon ball they have shown that these haxes interact with ki and resistances to them are gained by having higher ki

i am not talking about mind hax...just about existence erasure and time stop
 
thats how many verses handle hax...true... but it is not a universal rule...every verse is flexible and free to follow their own rules... and in dragon ball they have shown that these haxes interact with ki and resistances to them are gained by having higher ki

Only reason that Dragon Ball isn't allowed to follow their own universal rules is due to Cal disagreeing without giving any debute valid argument besides "oh well other universes would be insane XD".
 
goku started resisting hit's time stop just by using kaioken which is nothing but an increase in ki...later hit did not even bother trying it on a much stronger jiren...

base goku struggled with resisting existence erasure from sidra while golden freeza did it much easily... and a much stronger vegeta did it even more easily...
 
TheC2 said:
@Cal
I've got a question then.

In some VS threads, I've seen people bring up the AP = Resistance thing.

EX: Kefla should be able to resist Hit's Time-Stop because she's so much more powerful him than him, like Goku or Jiren.

Considering we don't grant resistances based on power alone and a character must demonstrate their resistances, should that be considered a valid argument? Cuz, it kind feels like a double standard.
Click to expand...
Kefla has no resistance to Time Stop. Hit would be able to kill her by freezing time and using an intangible attack to rupture her organs.
 
and that's the problem right there...she should have resistance to it and that is what this thread is about...
 
In Dragon Ball, power IS > Hax. But the stuff here won't accept it so no point trying (Don't try bringing in Babadi, that was Magic)
 
Goku resists time skip through kaioken, hence why Goku states "the level I'm at now is far above your time skip" only after using the Kaioken. Goku was referring to the level of power he was at, and this is quite clear. Hit also improves after Goku resists the time skip, and once he does so, Goku is, once again, unable to resist it.

This would show that it was done through a rise in power level, would it not? Goku got stronger, he could reisst. Once Hit did the same, he could not. Yes, this wouldn't be how things typically would go. However, it's a different universe with different rules.

I'd appreciate more than a simple "No" by the way. No disrespect meant by this, however I see a lot of responses with just "No" or "We wouldn't allow it". Would like to actually know why that is the case.

(Posted this but it wouldn't appear so if there's a glitch and I have two messages of the sort, sorry in advanced)
 
I suppose this makes sense. Though we should probably wait and see what the staff members think.
 
Going by precedent (https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1826285), there's no way this is going to be accepted. Resistances don't scale by way of power, they only scale with proof. They're not going to make an exception for Dragon Ball, even if that is the way it apparently works in-verse, because then you'd get a ton of replies in any thread involving a Dragon Ball character and someone else with hax "hurr hurr [insert DB character] resists [insert given opponent's hax] because stronk" in spite of 0 evidence that said DB character has any resistance to the aforementioned hax.

So, no, Kefla shouldn't have resistance to Time Stop just because she's stronger than Hit. No more than Android 17 should have Resistance to Existence Erasure for being equal to (or plausibly greater than, by a small amount) Golden Freeza. No proof? No resistance.
 
That's the way it works in verse though, like you said. The REASON why Jiren resists time manipulation is because of the strength he has— that was stated.

The manga even states this objectively, so if we were to make Manga profiles, how would they handle it— by ignoring that statement. I agree with Mind Manipulation not scaling unless we can prove Goku's willpower to be comparable to Vegeta's beyond assumptions- but at the very least in VS battles where two DBZ characters are fighting, resistances in many cases scale to AP, whereas they don't in other cases— Transmutation and Mind Control specifically. Goku and Vegeta should both resist time and absolute zero, when the only reason why they can do that is shared between them. To assume it's a specific thing that Vegeta himself only has access to is to deny the evidence for the opposite.

But they're being hard on Dragon Ball because they don't wanna seem biased against it. When, maybe, everyone should be more lenient on other verses on certain things, rather than neutering a verse because they refuse to look at things on a case by case basis.
 
Amexim said:
-snip-
Click to expand...
I don't even personally believe that's the way it works in-verse, tbh. Jiren was stated by Vados to have "a power that transcends time". She didn't say the same thing (or anything even remotely similar) when Goku broke through Hit's Time Stop in the U6 Tournament. :\

It isn't even a bias, either. Supposedly, in-universe, characters from Saint Seiya are able to ignore Time Stop because "they move at the speed of light", as from Word of God. But that's a ridiculous notion--instead, on their profiles, the relevant characters have Resistance to Time Stop listed, but only those who have shown proof of resisting it.

You call it "being hard on Dragon Ball because they don't want to seem biased", but that's a fallacy. It's the rules they use for literally every single universe--no resistance without the feat to back it up. Why would they make an exception here, when they don't for other series (e.g. the aforementioned Saint Seiya)? Why does that mean they're being hard on Dragon Ball?

Hax does not scale to AP. It just isn't how it works here, and arguably, it isn't how it works in its own series, even.


Not to mention, Vegeta was at least equal to Goku in strength as an SSB in the U6 tournament, but that didn't stop him from getting his shit kicked in by Hit's Time Stop, when Goku was able to break through it in SSB.
 
False equivalence with Saint Seiya.

And you're wrong about a bunch of the stuff you said. The most important one would be if a Verse had followed the Hax scales to zap thing, why would the wiki ignore it when it's clearly stated. The Manga EXPLICITLY says this as well, so if we were to make profiles for them, that's how it works. To ignore that would be the same as ignoring a canon event. It would actually BE ignoring a canon event...

While it was never directly stated, it's not an unintuitive and unsupported idea. Goku, for example, resists Existence Erasure along with Frieza, when everyone and everything else (barring Vegeta as well) get completely erased by it on every level. What's the thing they have in common? Power. Jiren broke through Hit's time because of his raw power. Goku was able to resist the Time Skip (when he was still moving in the Time Stop during the U6 battle, when before he and Vegeta in standard Blue couldn't do anything about it. He resisted it after he got stronger using the Kaioken. Vegeta punches through a Hakai sphere, when the hakai erases people who are far weaker than them all with negative difficulty. Vegeta Powers up to break Absolute Zero ice latched on his body (plus they trained in the Time Chamber which has fucky weather that could build temperature resistance if that Absolute ZeRo doesn't scale for some reason). Vados NOT saying anything when Goku finessed Hit doesn't negate the fact that she DID say something when a Suppressed Jiren finessed time itself allegedly via raw power. Logic would dictate anyone stronger should be capable of doing the same.

To say that they have some sort of special specific quality responsible for this is to ignore all of this, and why? Because we lack a statement in verse? When anyone can see that it's likely to be true. It's definitely not true for all hax, but a good amount of them. The bigger issue is how this rule applies to vs battles.
 
The whole thing about being stronger than your opponent always meaning you have a resistance to their haxes on DBZ is pure headcanon.

Exception 1: Spike the Devil Ma.

  • Spike has the ability to use an opponent's evil heart against them. His hax works regardless of the opponent's strength, since Goku was confirmed to be stronger than him and he only resisted the attack because he had a pure heart, otherwise he would have been affected.
Exception 2: Guldo

  • Guldo's Time Stop works on an opponent regardless of their strength, considering his power was completely dwarved by Krillin and Gohan's (both of whom thought of him as a massive weak link as soon as they set their eyes on him) and, even then, both his time stop and telekinesis still managed to stop them.
Exception 3: Ginyu

  • Ginyu's ability to change bodies with someone else is also independent of their strength, as those who have read the Goku-Ginyu segment might remember.
Exception 4: Mafuba

  • Mafuba can seal anyone regardless of powerful the enemy is. Worked on Zamasu, worked on both Piccolo's and only failed because of the stupidity of the user in all of those situations.
Exception 5: Candy Beam

  • Majin Boo's Candy Beam also works on anyone independent of their AP. It's confirmed by the Daizenshuu that it didn't fully work on Vegito because his strength doesn't change even if his shape does, and would have worked on Evil Boo had he not blown it back.
Exception 6: Dabura

  • It was confirmed in the manga by Vegeta, who thought Dabura was physically weak at first, that Dabura's Spit was the only thing they had to watch for, and it was later confirmed by Dragon Ball Super that it would have worked on Super Saiyan 2 Trunks had Dabura used it.
Conclusion:

This entire discussion is nigh baseless and hinges on one or two examples while ignoring the many cases where it isn't true. It is objectively not the default assumption to be made.
 
It's not baseless. It's just got a lot of exceptions (that I didn't think of). Doesn't change the fact that Goku being stronger than Jiren while Jiren continues doing as Jiren does, flexing on the 3rd Dimension with his 4th Dimensional Power, and resisting Time manip because of it, makes Goku capable of doing the same for the same reasons. Same for Resisting Hakai.

The only rational conclusion is that some examples work. And while I now think that it's not necessarily a good practice to apply this to all profiles for all abilities and in VS battles, the fact still remains that those abilities that DO rely on AP should scale.

So Time Manip, and EE are the only ones basically.
 
Yeah, fair point @TheC2.

Though, What do we do about verses (& the Manga) who do scale AP to hax resistance? Because it works in their verse, but outside of their verse? I was thinking Goku's able to resist weaker EE and/or EE from weaker people, so Verses who have that rule for ALL hax probably do both and have their power not work on those powerful than them too.
 
So...yeah...should we push for a note or something about the whole 'More power/ki =/= hax resistance'?

Honestly, until we put something on that page and put a foot down on it, it's just going to keep going. Kep's examples pretty much debunk that notion and thus, show that DB characters resisting hax is just that, them demonstrating thei resistance.
 
Yeah, but we do need to clarify that it's still a case by case basis. As in, literally just EE and Time resistances.
 
TBH Guldo can be used anytime to disprove that strength can overcome hax..but at the same time man we can obviously see that AKira forgets his own anime at times
 
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