Minor Arceus and CT Hax Additions

Meant to make this thread earlier. I mentioned what I said in an earlier CRT for these guys but to keep it more organized I'll just bring my suggestions here. They're somewhat minor, but have a lot of stuff to support the new abilities so im splitting the thread in different sections as followed. Here we go. (Following the ways of Dragon in making Digimon threads ovo)

Arceus's Plate Typing
Here it shouldnt be too much to request to add in. It's the most minor and its through Arceus's plates, which im surprised has never been brought up.

Through the power of the type plates, Arceus is able to become [Insert Here] type to negate whatever attack comes his way, defensively. We all know this. However, what should also be acceptable is him being able to use them, offensively and regularly, like any pokemon. In other words, when becoming a type, Arceus should be perfectly capable of using the natural abilities of a pokemon type when he switches between them. For example, say Arceus becomes a ghost type in battle. When becoming a ghost type, Arceus should already gain the abilities any ghost pokemon would obtain from typing alone, such as intangibility, phasing, and so on. Or if he became a psychic type, he would gain a psychic pokemon's skill of mind control (he has mind manip. anyway but thats beside the point). And all of this would be vastly upscaled from weaker pokemon.

Even without the moves pertaining to a certain attribute, Pokemon are well depicted and known to use elemental manipulation without even using the moves. A Pikachu can still manipulate electricity without the use of thunderbolt. Same thing with a Squirtle and water gun, Charmander and flamethrower, Pidgey and gust, etc. Even if Arceus doesnt have the move of a specific type (sans Judgement), there is no reason why he cannot still manipulate the element of that type. Evidence as followed:

Anime
- Jewel of Life. While not exactly used in battle, the jewel is made up of the Water, Electric, Grass, Ground, and Dragon plates. And the jewel has been used to restore fertile life to an entire region that lacked it. Perfectly along the line of at least water, grass and ground manipulation to result in fertilizing land.

- The Prison Bottle. Mary explicity depicts the Ground, Fire, and Water plates as the 3 Great Forces of Nature when Ghris made the bottle for Hoopa. 38:17 . Though everyone can take this as they will.

Game
- Arceus was born with literally all Pokemon types already at his natural disposal. Something we all know and accept.

- Quote from the lore: "The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon.". Arceus bestows all pokemon the power of the types, and he already directly gave the Creation and Lake trio's their typings anyway.

Manga
Biggest one of all



As clearly seen in the pictures here, Arceus when switching plates conjures up the literal elemental forces from [Insert Here] plate and uses it against everyone. Electricity comes from the Zap Plate, rocks from the Stone Plate, leaves from the Meadow Plate, it even goes as far to make a whole body of water when Arceus uses the Splash Plate.


Dialga and Palkia's regular attack changes
Now for Dialga and Palkia (and debateably the other god tiers)

Doing some further digging on Gen 4 material (some we constantly deal with), i've discovered Dialga and Palkia should be able to do far more destruction than we give them credit for. Physical, Mental, and Spiritual levels of destruction that is. In other words, Dialga and Palkia should be given the ability to destroy the body, mind, and soul of whomever they fight against, even with just their presence. Evidence? Quite a fair amount for this:

Games
-In quotes:

""... ... Everything is ready for the creation of a new world. Now, all will end. And everything will begin. With this, the Red Chain made from the crystals of the three lake Pokémon. And this, the Red Chain I replicated with technological means... With these Red Chains I will pry open the portal to another dimension. I command that you unleash your power for me..."

"Dialga, the mythical Pokémon, and the master of time! ...And the other. Palkia, the mythical Pokémon, and the master of space and dimensions!"

"I've waited so long for this moment, Dialga and Palkia. Shaping this world is a double spiral of time and space. Yes, the very things that you have the ability to control! You will do my bidding! I will have your abilities as mine! With the power I wield, I will create an entirely new world! The incomplete and ugly world we have now can disappear. I am resetting everything to zero. Nothing can remain. It is all for making the ultimate world. A world of complete perfection. Nothing so vague and incomplete as spirit can remain."

"...I should have expected as much. Uxie, "The Being of Knowledge." Azelf, "The Being of Willpower." And Mesprit, "The Being of Emotion"..."

"The Pokémon have come to protect Sinnoh? Pathetic and worthless. It takes the three of them, the three lake Pokémon that symbolize spirit, to balance either the Pokémon of time or space. But they can't maintain balance against the two. Not when both Dialga and Palkia are here. Their coming here is in vain. So much meaningless drama. Now, <player>. You've constantly interfered with my plans, but you will be forgiven. After all, there will remain no spirit for all time when I am done. All spirit will disappear. It will be ripped away... From you! From your Pokémon! From those precious to you...! It is time! My dream will be my reality!"


Should be clear cut and dry. It outrights states Cyrus's intention of literally erasing the "spirit" that the Lake Trio themselves brought forth upon the birth of his new world, which makes up the mind and souls, the overall awareness of all people and pokemon in the Pokemon world. And Dialga and/or Palkia were able to do this just by being present at Spear Pillar. So with the universe erased (physical), and the LT's spirit (mind and soul) gone with it, that would give Dialga and Palkia physical, mental, and spiritual destruction. And before anyone says "speculation, they never did it", USUM already gives us confirmation that in another universe Cyrus gets his perfect world so these 2 definitely have success with doing what Cyrus wanted.

Its debatable on whether or not Giratina and the Lake Trio can get this, however Arceus is a no brainer.

Anime




Aside from the anime's depiction of Team Galactic's mission from the games, even in "Rise of Darkrai" Dialga and Palkia demonstrate such feats, even with their presence. Well...on Darkrai anyway, he clearly gets destroyed to nothing. His body, mind, spirit, all gone.

However, this does show that their attacks are incorporated with such erasure-type properties to erase Alamos Town either by being there or with their normal attacks. Manga versions shouldnt be any different IIRC so no need to post them here. EDIT: Manga versions do help as support. but they're posted down in the reply section anyways.


Resistances
Not much to say here. Sans Arceus, the god tiers should be given resistance to Dialga and Palkia's destruction of bodies, minds, and souls.

-Dialga and Palkia completely resist each others power.

-Lake Trio are able to subdue either Dialga or Palkia (and they were completely uneffected by their reset of the universe.).

-Giratina => Dialga and Palkia

-Darkrai can fight both Sealed Dialga and Palkia to the point where they need to actively attack him to destroy him.

Conclusion
Suming everything up here:

*Arceus should obtain the natural abilities from the type plates like any pokemon would and have it scaled higher than theirs (not that impressive for his tier, but still notable to add above other things)

*Casual destruction of the body, mind, and soul should be given to Dialga, Palkia, and Arceus (and anyone else that could have it argued for)

*Resistances are in the same boat as the former


That is it. Does everyone look/not look okay to add?

Wouldn't Arceus get the resistance as he bodied them during Jewel of Life?

Everything else seems good.

"His mind spirit and everything"

I'd rather not exaggerate what is essentially Darkrai just vanishing.

What is exaggerating about that? Darkrai definitely got the same treatment Alamos Town was getting, erasure.

What would imply he didnt?

Yes. His physical body got erased. You don't have to extrapolate by saying that he got erased on all planes of existence.

I agree with the additions, by the way, as in USUM it has been confirmed that Dialga/Palkia erased the universe I think that this feat could be added to the Void Manipulation of CT:

"Cyrus is the boss of Team Galactic, the villainous organization that appeared in Pokémon Diamond and Pokémon Pearl. Believing that the human heart is imperfect, Cyrus held a desire to use the power of the Legendary Pokémon Dialga or Palkia to erase the current world and create a perfect new world. He always conducts himself in a cool and logical way, and he is greatly trusted by his subordinates in Team Galactic."

Saikou The Lewd King said:

Yes. His physical body got erased. You don't have to extrapolate by saying that he got erased on all planes of existence.

Click to expand...

But I never meant this? Just his body, mind and soul...?

Well, "everything" can be misinterpreted...

I agree with Saikou. With should not make that assumption based on... Nothing, really. They erased his body. That's it.

Everything else is fine with me.

Um, no?

We had a big thread on this already and a majority of us agreed if Palkia never restored everything Darkrai would have gotten Mid-Godly regen because of this. He clearly got erased and nothing implies he didnt. There was literally nothing of him left behind.

We don't actually give ghost-types intangibility and the rest of those abilities just for being ghost types do we?

Also, we don't automatically upscale an ability unless shown to be upscaled.

Also agree with Saik, and he's just saying that to cover mind, and soul.

Well, show proof that they erased his mind and soul, then.

Yes, Darkrai probably shouldn't get this resistance, although that reminds me that Darkrai should be resistant to psychic abilities because it is Dark Type.

@Somebody

I believe we do but don't quote me on that please. I'll wait for Cal or someone else to address that.

And why not? Mewtwo's mind hax is definitely upscaled from every non-legendary psychic type like Alakazam for being, well, a legendary. If we're accepting Mewtwo to do that, there is no reason why Arceus wouldnt have his upscaled from every pokemon of a respective type under him.

The legendaries destroying mind soul and body with their mere presence is unsubstained, otherwise everyone in Mt.Coronet would've been destroyed instantly.

The Dialogue implies that Cyrus with the power of Dialga and Palkia can achieve this, not at one point is it stated that this ability is passive.

They get the ability but not the passive ability to do so.

The Darkrai stuff is just reaching, nowhere is it stated that their destruction is erasing the soul and mind within that continuity.

LephyrTheRevanchist said:

Well, show proof that they erased his mind and soul, then.

Click to expand...

The pic of Darkrai fading away is in the thread. And what other else proof is required?

Darkrai got erased down to nothing after multiple attacks and didnt once come back without Palkia's doing. If his mind or soul was still in place instead of his physical body we would have seen that. And what implies that they weren't erased either? Nothing.

First part is obvious PIS, thats like saying they werent destroying the universe because the distortion didnt kill them. And Cyrus wanted to remain to rule his new world so why would he die?

Check Diamond and Pearl. Because they were doing that the instant they in their respective games got to Mt. Coronet.

He was shown to be completely erased. What implies only his body was effected?

I'm sorry but you can't claim PIS whenever there is a blatant contradiction to your theory, Palkia also appears in the town during the movie long before Dialga arrives and no one's soul and body got automatically erased.

They very obviously don't do this in DP either as the protagonist still gets a chance to fight Dialga and Palkia respectively, something that wouldn't happen if their entire being got automatically erased just by being near them.

there is 0 evidence of this ability being passive.

What implies his mind and spirit were erased? You're the one that needs to provide proof of those two things happening in conjunction with his body being erased.

I absolutely can when its called for it. It's obvious the main characters wouldnt be effected by anything the CT have while under the workings of plot. Same thing for Team Galactic in game. Its simple inconsistency and PIS on their part, unless your expecting me to believe Ash or the player should instantly die out when thats ridiculous.

Same thing as before. Plus the Lake Trio already stopped Dialga and/or Palkia before you even face them.

Because of the fact that literally nothing of Darkrai was left behind? If we accept Alamos town being erased by them, the same thing goes for Darkrai.

Some things I will say later, because both sides are saying very wrong things.

@Kukui

So essentially you're assuming that they erased mind, body and soul because we don't see the first and latter... based on a scene that only shows a body fading...

I'm just gonna say this and take my leave: Just because they can erase stuff in the games, does not mean they did it in the movies.

I'm gonna say it again: I do not agree with the darkrai stuff based on this assumptions. Everything else is fine.

It'd be PIS if it was actually established they have the passive ability in the first place it is not, the dialogue you quote makes no mention of the ability being passive.

As it stands your theory has 0 evidence and 2 contradictions.

AFAIK there is no evidence of the spirit and mind being erased in that particular instance, only matter and space-time for obvious reasons.

LephyrTheRevanchist said:

@Kukui
I'm just gonna say this and take my leave: Just because they can erase stuff in the games, does not mean they did it in the movies.

Click to expand...

Im fairly certain that this is the complete opposite. The CT should be all around the same across all media besides maybe stuff like PMD Primal Dialga. Even then, they were clearly erasing Alamos Town and Darkrai got destroyed in the same way. How would that not be erasure?

@Aguilar

In Diamond and Pearl, Professor Rowan says that Dialga/Palkia is waiting for the player because it wants to test him, so it's pretty obvious that he doesn't want to erase the player.

• I'm neutral about passive erasure of soul and mind

AguilaR101 said:

It'd be PIS if it was actually established they have the passive ability in the first place it is not, the dialogue you quote makes no mention of the ability being passive.
As it stands your theory has 0 evidence and 2 contradictions.

AFAIK there is no evidence of the spirit and mind being erased in that particular instance, only matter and space-time for obvious reasons.

Click to expand...

Thats kind of not how PIS works. If any fodder are caught in the crossfire, then unless you expect me to believe they should instantly die out, it's PIS and Outliers on their part for them to remain in any way. That includes involving people and pokemon with that of the CT.

It's not theory. Alamos Town was getting erased and we literally see them in the games begin to destroy everything just by being called to Spear Pillar. Besides, USUM already gives us confirmation that in an alternate universe Cyrus completes his goals, so it isnt even as it it didnt happen at all.

For regular inanimate objects yes only their space-time (and IIRC we denied this and let it stay as regular erasure anyway but I could be wrong). Living pokemon? Different story.

Spoilers, guys...

@Kukui

It would be literally impossible for Cyrus to carry out his plan if the Creation Trio had the ability to erase the mind, body, and soul of foes since he'd be erased the moment he approached them. There's also no evidence to corroborate your theory aside from Cyrus' monologue in any of the mediums. As the others have said, there's 0 indication that mind and soul got erased and we're jumping to conclusions by doing so. A no from me.

I don't cover Pokemon closely, but I don't think we power-scale abilities that way, nor do we assume that Pokemon have certain abilities because of their typing, especially when Ghost types can be harmed by physical attacks for as long as they aren't normal type (i.e. Ice Fang) even though there would be now reason for them to if they were intangible.

@Reppuzan

And yet somehow Cyrus has the mentality of thinking he'd survive in a world where Spirit is non-existent anyway? Either case he should have been erased yet he wasnt. So why say he should be erased when approaching the trio? His intentions where to completely get rid of the spirit of everything in the universe, including the universe and reset it. Why not believe him all of a sudden? Plus, doesn't the red chain give him complete control of their powers?

As stated already USUM already confirmed this by bringing Cyrus back (spoilers but this was long already revealed) so that does indicate he got what he wanted.

Those are elemental attacks, ghost types are only intangible to physical moves like ghost and fighting. So limited intangibility I guess for this.

@kukui What crossfire? There is no "crossfire" it is neither shown or stated that their presence automatically erases people near them, it'd only be an inconsistency/outlier/PIS if we assumed they have the ability in the first place and it failed for no reason.

Yeah no, they only show how their presence starts to affect space/time, nowhere is it shown or stated that they started erasing spirit and minds of the people around Sinnoh.

The real cal howard said:

Spoilers, guys...

Click to expand...

Technically not a spoiler. This was shown officially in a japanese trailer.

@Aguila

Team Galactic would have been instantly wiped out by them if that wasnt the case and that would be the PIS in this scenerio so that the player could stop them. Otherwise if they were going to be instantly killed there would be 0 point in them going after Dialga and/or Palkia at all. Plus they still had the red chain which controls their powers iirc so its easily believeable that Cyrus would command them not to harm him or his allies.

The distortion is what Cyrus is refering to when stating he'll destroy the Lake Trio's "spirit". We don't see it because the Lake Trio themselves come by seconds later to free them from the chains (or in Platnium's case Giratina just shuts everything down when the LT fail to stop them). Besides, once again, Cyrus does this in USUM so the rest is completely moot.

@Prof

Or... we could use Occam's Razor and assume that is not the case since there are numerous cases of regular people and Pokemon not being erased in the Creation Trio's preference and 0 cases of passive mind and soul erasure happening.

Could Dialga potentially destroy the mind and spirit? Sure. Is it passive? Probably not, given that Cyrus had to order Dialga to do so.

@kukui I have another explanation for them not being wiped out instantly, Dialga and Palkia don't have the ability to passively erase spirits and mind.

You fail to understand that this ability you claim they have is not established at all, so the showings of it supposedly not working can't be PIS because there is no evidence of the ability being passive in the first place.

Also, if Cyrus pulled them out of their dimension it is just as likely he commanded the distortion in the first place which only hurts your argument of them requiring no concious input to achieve the effect.

Cyrus ultimately achieving his goals in another timeline is irrelevant and goes beyond the point of this discussion, no evidence of them having erased spirit and mind passively in that timeline either.

Because in any of those cases, it would be incredible PIS for Ash, the player, or any human to suddenly not be killed by the CT? With nothing protecting them, the CT would be able to do absolutely anything they wanted or are used to do and nothing (sans Arceus) would be able to get in their way. And we already have them erasing stuff with their presence. For instance, Palkia erased those lamposts just by jumping to them. Are we now going to say its moot when Ash suddenly doesnt get erased when getting close?

Not acccording to this . Because the instant Dialga stepped foot onto Spear Pillar, the distortion Cyrus wanted began without Cyrus needing to say one thing.

The latter is speculative since USUM just confirms Cyrus did it without the games player stopping him. And how? Because of Dialga or Palkia's time/space distortion wiping the LT's spirit away.

As for the former, I addressed it to Rep.

@Kukui

That's not PIS. When you have five or six different showings of the CT not erasing something, it's far more likely that you are extrapolating than the narrative is.

PIS is something so outrageously out of the normal showings of a character that it's dismissed, like Black Panther wrestling the Silver Surfer or Doc Oc Spider-Man flattening Thor. You're misusing the word.

"Distortion" =/= erasure. Sure it began, but it didn't finish until Dialga was ordered to.

It's the same with characters that distort time and space with their presence alone. It's not an indication of erasure.

So are we going to say Palkia erasing those lamposts just by being near them isn't legit or PIS because of a fodder close up to it didnt get erased then? Because then id be sure every other instance would be the PIS because of this one. I understand PIS cannot apply to everything and agree to that but im not certain of this being the case either.

Also that isnt true either. https://youtu.be/IpxYAwkeD4k

The distortion was already erasing the current universe, Dialga or Palkia just needed to make a whole new one without spirit. Cyrus never once ordered either to do it, they began doing it themselves without an order at 13:34 in the link but failed a second later when the LT came and stopped them. Or if we go by USUM's route, they did do so there with no interference.

Also, there may be manga scans to further show this but ill need to go get them first.

Yeah I was right. Manga versions definitely support passive mind and soul erasure of the LT's spirit.

In this manga version, Dialga and Palkia's distortion is erasing the universe just by literally being there glaring at each other, causing reality to go incredibly unstable to where it'd be nothing entirely.

@Kukui

Again, distortions and holes in reality are not Existence Erasure. That's space-time manipulation.

Your linked video is the creation of a new galaxy, not the erasure of the current universe.

This is a massive difference. In addition, it immediately stopped as soon as the Lake Trio showed up to break the Red Chain and calm Dialga.

@Reppuzan

That distortion was causing reality to become completely nothing (to make it easier this is the manga where the CT once had Infinite Speed to validate the nothingness part). Im fairly certain space-time hax wouldnt be capable of doing that and even then that would still prove they were passively doing it instead of active.

As for the video, I know its the link to where they made Cyrus's galaxy. That was to show they werent ordered by Cyrus to erase the current universe because their distortion was already doing that, they just proceeded to make his new world without him needing to demand it.