Zuko Vs Shoto Todoroki

[Therefir]

Shoto has no reason to get close, with the help of his fire side he can launch Town sized ice walls and completely freeze his surroundings, Zuko included.

The ice is so cold that All Might-level characters get broken to pieces by it.

And even if this was ignored and Zuko somehow got close to Shoto, he still can't do much considering this Shoto can take 41 tons attacks and just keep going.

 

[Therefir]

That argument would make Shoto 7-B, which he isn’t, so I dunno why you’d bring it up.

Because My Hero Academia is held by much stricter rules and we know that creating and vaporizing a bunch of ice doesn't necessarily mean you can use that energy to attack someone.

And I have the feeling that those 8-B fire calcs for Zuko and Ozai would fall into this issue as well, but that's a problem for another thread.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Because My Hero Academia is held by much stricter rules

What stricter rules? It’s either an outlier or he scales.

and we know that creating and vaporizing a bunch of ice doesn't necessarily mean you can use that energy to attack someone.

Except that Shoto literally used that amount of energy to attack Sero in that scene.

And I have the feeling that those 8-B fire calcs for Zuko and Ozai would fall into this issue as well, but that's a problem for another thread.

… these are their attacks. They throw them out like candy and block them in turn but if it needs another thread then I’ll leave it alone.

 

[Therefir]

What stricter rules? It’s either an outlier or he scales.

Except that Shoto literally used that amount of energy to attack Sero in that scene.

… these are their attacks. They throw them out like candy and block them in turn but if it needs another thread then I’ll leave it alone.

@TheRustyOne Can explain it better, but fire calcs use heat energy to find their potency, but they don't actually have this amount of force behind them, that's just the energy needed to create the fire, not the force they are actually hitting someone with.

That's why creating a 7-B ice doesn't necessarily mean you can directly hit someone with 7-B levels of power, the same applies to fire.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Hope you're ready to read, but I'll explain once again why getting rating from fire/ice is worthless... Here I mean. An obvious exception being is if the verse has a universal/shared energy source like KI/Magic or whatever, which means they can use that same energy for something else. MHA does not have such a thing.

Heat/Cold can ignore physical durability, especially in fiction. It's why Endeavor can consistently vaporize All Might level characters, yet be noticeably inferior to them. It's why Todoroki's ice can freeze the USJ Nomu and have his limbs fall off, despite not being nowhere close to All Might level at the time.

This is already accepted on this wiki to an extent, tanking fire that is calculated as being 8-B via temperature/heat isn't accepted as being scaled to physical durability. Fire/ice in fiction can produce force/thrust and have impact, as fiction can do anything. However fire/ice that acts like normal fire/ice, doesn't produce impact.

It's far more complicated than what I've said, but you get the gist yes?

Some fire calcs in Avatar are the same and honestly should be changed as they don't scale to anyone. 8-B heat doesn't mean 8-B levels of force. That's why I made that 8-B earth bending calc for Aang, as that actually carries 8-B levels of force and would scale to Ozai. Though didn't care to do anything else.

Iroh's feat of destroying the wall is a good feat that carries impact and can be used for scaling. But giant flame pillars that Ozai, Zuko, and Azula create are worthless. They do not scale physically and doesn't mean the fire they can produce has 8-B levels of force. And they can't place that energy into their fist either.

Here is the copy paste part from an old CRT that changed MHA's temperature ratings.

Spoiler: Temperature Ratings

Now if you look at Shoto, Endeavor, Tetsutetsu, or any character who has resistance to fire/cold in this verse. You'll usually see a rating in their durability that says Blank level against Ice/Cold/Fire/Heat attack. As a way of showing their resistance towards certain level of attacks. This seems to make sense at a glance.

However this is wrong, as this rating doesn't actually tell us how heat resistant someone is. Let me explain. Damage caused via heat/cold happens because of extreme temperature. High temperature burns/melt and low temperature freezes. The energy that it takes to produce that heat/cold doesn't translate into temperature automatically.

Obviously higher/lower temperature would give off more energy. However size/volume is a major factor here as well.

Example: Character A can produce fire that can instantly melt through steel. Character B can produce a fire that can't melt steel, but can melt copper. In this case Character A's fire is superior correct? They can melt things Character B's fire cannot melt, as it has a higher temperature.

However Character B's fire is calculated at High 8-C levels of energy, while Character A's fire is only 9-A. People who tank Character B's fire are given High 8-C durability towards fire attacks, while Character A's fire is only 9-A. This implies that Character A's fire cannot harm those who can tank Character B's fire.

This is incorrect. As heat/cold damages via extreme temperature, the more extreme temperature will do more damage. Character B's fire has a higher rating because the area that fire covers is greater than what Character A's fire can cover. Yes Character B's fire does require more energy to create, however it isn't because it's hotter, it's because it's bigger. The flame are still incapable of melting steel, while Character A's flame can melt those things.

High heat can cause damage physically by a small amount, however this has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I'm talking about heat/cold resistance only. Which is currently labeled on the MHA profiles as, in Shoto's case, Town level/Mountain level+ against Ice/Fire Attacks. What does this rating mean? It means nothing.

The rating is pointless as this doesn't tell me how hot or cold the flames or ice Todoroki resist is. What if Todoroki fights someone who's fire was calculated at 8-A, but has a temperature of ten thousand degrees Celsius? Does Todoroki tank his fire or does he get roasted? I'm pretty sure anyone you'd ask would say he gets roasted.

Todoroki is incapable of attacking with the energy he uses to create that fire and ice. And as discussed, the rating given is irrelevant. Todoroki's flames/ice being 7-C or 7-A doesn't change the fact he can't burn/freeze anyone who can resist temperatures greater than his own. There is no universal energy source either, Todoroki cannot put the energy he uses to create his flames/ice into anything else.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

There is literally nothing that Zuko can do to Todoroki burying him under nearly a kilometer of ice, then just keep spamming the ice anytime he tries to get out. Literally no Force or temperature Zuko has can defeat that attack.

Lol, Fire benders can causally produce this much fire at this much distance with the Sozin’s Comet amp. The following feats were performed by fire bending soldiers and Ozai.

And they can let it keep flowing continuously, they were going to keep letting this flow till the entire expanse of land is submerged in fire. There is no reason to say Zuko can’t perform these feats when necessary. And in this case it’s absolutely necessary since this isn’t some Agni Kai match where Zuko needs to worry about trashing the place and killing whoever lived nearby (cough Katara cough civilians)

Moreover, Zuko can melt the ice easily. While weakened by cold weather and lack of sunlight he was able to escape being drowned by melting the ice quickly sealing his path while under freezing water early in the series. Also, while there was sunlight but still in cold weather, Zuko easily negged Katara’s ice that restrained him with the heat of his exhale (unless he warmed his own body up which will count as heat resistance). Now imagine what an Sozin Comet Amped Zuko will do against Todoroki’s ice. Zuko will easily melt them, and he can continuously keep fire flowing until Todoroki’s body temperature decline forces him to stop with his ice flow.

Ozai is stronger than Zuko, and not even this feat from him is enough to melt all of Todoroki’s ice. That’s how much he’s making. The ice Zuko melted in the feat described is pitiful compared to what he has to melt now, not to mention that Shoto can just freeze his head too. Are we forgetting how Azula could do nothing when Katara froze her whole body?

Saying “he melted some of Katara’s ice so a stronger version can melt all of Shoto’s ice” is like saying “I can touch hot water and not get burned, so a stronger me can survive the supernova of a star.” The scale of power necessary is completely different. Zuko isn’t doing shit to Todoroki’s ice when he shoots it seriously other than getting buried in it.

Also here’s the funny part: let’s say Zuko manages to get out of the ice.

Shoto just shoots more ice at him.

Because his power is only limited by his body’s regulation, which he can control with his fire side. So he literally can do this move over and over again until Zuko is taken out. He doesn’t even freeze over from this attack by Joint Training anymore.

Also Zuko will bring this fight close range and skill **** Todoroki easily. Todorki, who barely has control over his fire side and is okay with his ice side, is up against a very skilled fighter and bender like Zuko.

The same Zuko who can take on multiple skilled fire nation soldiers on his own.

The same Zuko who beat Zhao — a former lieutenant, captain, commander and admiral of the Fire Nation Army, who was also taught by Jeoung Jeoung to become a fire bending Master— in an Agni kai match.

The same Zuko who beat Azula — A prodigee who is a more skilled fighter than Zhao — in an Agni Kai match.

etc.

Todoroki was even regarded as a careless fighter by Stain for relying on his quirk too much iirc. Zuko not only utilize bending but also engages in physical hand to hand combat. So coupled with all this with Zuko’s acrobatics… Todoroki has no chance against Zuko close range combat.

“Todoroki is more versatile”, Zuko can make several weapons in all shapes and sizes with his fire bending. Zuko can breathe fire and use it to enhance his skills and mobility. Create fire based forcefeilds, etc.

“Barely has control over his fire side” buddy this is Joint Training what do you mean?!? He has perfect control of his fire side here, enough to being using Flashfire Fist moves, and he’s never even stated that he has more trouble with it than his ice side, he just neglected it. Also, why are you even bringing this up when the main argument is that it’s his ice side that bodies Zuko??

“Close Range he skill ***** him” Ok, so he blasts him from hundreds of meters away and KOs him that way then. Or he, y’know, gets out of his range because he can use his ice to move??? Like are we going insane and not realizing that Todoroki’s ice can carry him like he’s Iceman, so he never has to be close to Zuko at all? The **** is Zuko gonna do then, when he’s too busy trying to not die from being buried under Ice he can’t even melt before Todoroki has replaced it?

Zuko is never getting into close quarters. Todoroki has every advantage in the book to keep him away on top of being more mobile. And cqc is the only way Zuko is beating him in the first place since his fire bending is nothing to Shoto, who is several times stronger than Comet Zuko’s force and laughs at his temperature.

Also, “he can make things with his fire so he’s more versatile,” lmao? Is that supposed to help him not die? Nothing he has is saving him from Shoto’s ice attacks and his fire attacks are weaker in every way. The only thing he has is fire bending and cqc. Shoto’s ice mobility, range, spam potential, and sheer amount, coupled with a fire resistance, takes precedence over “but Zuko can breathe fire.”

 

[chosen]

I hate to say it but todo fra

 

[Doggo]

counted

 

[Doggo]

Todoroki:8
Zuko:2

 

[Doggo]

Also, “he can make things with his fire so he’s more versatile,” lmao? Is that supposed to help him not die? Nothing he has is saving him from Shoto’s ice attacks and his fire attacks are weaker in every way. The only thing he has is fire bending and cqc. Shoto’s ice mobility, range, spam potential, and sheer amount, coupled with a fire resistance, takes precedence over “but Zuko can breathe fire.”

I think they were talking about versatility

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Brother, not only that fire cone doesn't even reach a hundred meters in any way, but it was performed by the strongest fire bender, which Zuko isn't currently scaling from in his profile.

Just woke up. Who cares about who scales to who? You can literally see other fire bending soldiers alongside Ozai. As for the old ass calc you brought, I calced the second scan I brought before going to bed and it gave me roughly 1500m and 100 or so wide. I think I stumbled upon a similar calc a while back. I’ll edit this message if I find it.

And why the hell is city levels of energy required to melt the ice when Todoroki is only 8-B??

 

[chosen]

You have to get the range calc being accepted so it cab be used here (albeit it Would be a Nice upgrade)

 

[Therefir]

Just woke up. Who cares about who scales to who?

Anyone concerned just a bit about power scaling would care. A stronger firebender would naturally create a stronger, bigger fire.

As for the old ass calc you brought.

Old calc that is still being used and there's nothing wrong with it because they used Ozai in the image to measure it.

I calced the second scan I brought before going to bed and it gave me roughly 1500m and 100 or so wide.

Which I don't care for because it was performed by 16 different firebenders.

And why the hell is city levels of energy required to melt the ice when Todoroki is only 8-B??

Please read.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Hope you're ready to read, but I'll explain once again why getting rating from fire/ice is worthless... Here I mean. An obvious exception being is if the verse has a universal/shared energy source like KI/Magic or whatever, which means they can use that same energy for something else. MHA does not have such a thing.

Heat/Cold can ignore physical durability, especially in fiction. It's why Endeavor can consistently vaporize All Might level characters, yet be noticeably inferior to them. It's why Todoroki's ice can freeze the USJ Nomu and have his limbs fall off, despite not being nowhere close to All Might level at the time.

This is already accepted on this wiki to an extent, tanking fire that is calculated as being 8-B via temperature/heat isn't accepted as being scaled to physical durability. Fire/ice in fiction can produce force/thrust and have impact, as fiction can do anything. However fire/ice that acts like normal fire/ice, doesn't produce impact.

It's far more complicated than what I've said, but you get the gist yes?

Some fire calcs in Avatar are the same and honestly should be changed as they don't scale to anyone. 8-B heat doesn't mean 8-B levels of force. That's why I made that 8-B earth bending calc for Aang, as that actually carries 8-B levels of force and would scale to Ozai. Though didn't care to do anything else.

Iroh's feat of destroying the wall is a good feat that carries impact and can be used for scaling. But giant flame pillars that Ozai, Zuko, and Azula create are worthless. They do not scale physically and doesn't mean the fire they can produce has 8-B levels of force. And they can't place that energy into their fist either.

Here is the copy paste part from an old CRT that changed MHA's temperature ratings.

Spoiler: Temperature Ratings

Now if you look at Shoto, Endeavor, Tetsutetsu, or any character who has resistance to fire/cold in this verse. You'll usually see a rating in their durability that says Blank level against Ice/Cold/Fire/Heat attack. As a way of showing their resistance towards certain level of attacks. This seems to make sense at a glance.

However this is wrong, as this rating doesn't actually tell us how heat resistant someone is. Let me explain. Damage caused via heat/cold happens because of extreme temperature. High temperature burns/melt and low temperature freezes. The energy that it takes to produce that heat/cold doesn't translate into temperature automatically.

Obviously higher/lower temperature would give off more energy. However size/volume is a major factor here as well.

Example: Character A can produce fire that can instantly melt through steel. Character B can produce a fire that can't melt steel, but can melt copper. In this case Character A's fire is superior correct? They can melt things Character B's fire cannot melt, as it has a higher temperature.

However Character B's fire is calculated at High 8-C levels of energy, while Character A's fire is only 9-A. People who tank Character B's fire are given High 8-C durability towards fire attacks, while Character A's fire is only 9-A. This implies that Character A's fire cannot harm those who can tank Character B's fire.

This is incorrect. As heat/cold damages via extreme temperature, the more extreme temperature will do more damage. Character B's fire has a higher rating because the area that fire covers is greater than what Character A's fire can cover. Yes Character B's fire does require more energy to create, however it isn't because it's hotter, it's because it's bigger. The flame are still incapable of melting steel, while Character A's flame can melt those things.

High heat can cause damage physically by a small amount, however this has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I'm talking about heat/cold resistance only. Which is currently labeled on the MHA profiles as, in Shoto's case, Town level/Mountain level+ against Ice/Fire Attacks. What does this rating mean? It means nothing.

The rating is pointless as this doesn't tell me how hot or cold the flames or ice Todoroki resist is. What if Todoroki fights someone who's fire was calculated at 8-A, but has a temperature of ten thousand degrees Celsius? Does Todoroki tank his fire or does he get roasted? I'm pretty sure anyone you'd ask would say he gets roasted.

Todoroki is incapable of attacking with the energy he uses to create that fire and ice. And as discussed, the rating given is irrelevant. Todoroki's flames/ice being 7-C or 7-A doesn't change the fact he can't burn/freeze anyone who can resist temperatures greater than his own. There is no universal energy source either, Todoroki cannot put the energy he uses to create his flames/ice into anything else.

Looks like the ATLA pages are more outdated than I thought. Well Therefir did start bringing 2019/18 calcs and they’re still being used.

Anyway I guess a CRT is needed to change the 8-B rating. However, like you said in fiction Fire produces force and these levels of force are capable sending people flying and breaking shit in ATLA as you know already.

Remember the little confrontation Zuko had with Ozai? Zuko could take in, bend and redirect Ozai’s lightning that could harm Ozai himself. So I wouldn’t say Zuko is far off from Ozai and should maybe down scale to the 8-B calc you made.

So what now? For the sake of this match should we still go by the page?

 

[chosen]

Isn't iroh Only firebender in the chance who even stands a chance against ozai?

 

[SuperStar]

So what now? For the sake of this match should we still go by the page?

The match should continue, no need for delaying it.

If you want to make a CRT, go for it.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

The fire ratings in ATLA can stay. The attacks carry force and generate explosions, and can clash with other elemental attacks such as from earthbenders

 

[Therefir]

I'm pretty sure characters like Ozai are scaling from Aang's 35.20 tons feat, not sure about Zuko though.

I just wanted to show you can have 7-B ice without being able to use all that energy to directly attack.

 

[Doggo]

I'm pretty sure characters like Ozai are scaling from Aang's 35.20 tons feat, not sure about Zuko though.

I just wanted to show you can have 7-B ice without being able to use all that energy to directly attack.

Aren't Zuko and base Aang compared?

 

[Doggo]

Looks like the ATLA pages are more outdated than I thought. Well Therefir did start bringing 2019/18 calcs and they’re still being used.

Anyway I guess a CRT is needed to change the 8-B rating. However, like you said in fiction Fire produces force and these levels of force are capable sending people flying and breaking shit in ATLA as you know already.

Remember the little confrontation Zuko had with Ozai? Zuko could take in, bend and redirect Ozai’s lightning that could harm Ozai himself. So I wouldn’t say Zuko is far off from Ozai and should maybe down scale to the 8-B calc you made.

So what now? For the sake of this match should we still go by the page?

If your planning on fixing it, mind if I help you?

 

[TheRustyOne]

I believe Zuko scales to Aang as well, since Zuko is still 8-B outside of Sozin's Comet.

He scales to base Aang, and that feat was done by Base Aang.

Ozai and Iroh should be 8-B+ since I saw an accepted calc that placed Sozin's Comet Iroh at being 8-B+ for destroying the wall.

 

[Doggo]

I believe Zuko scales to Aang as well, since Zuko is still 8-B outside of Sozin's Comet.

He scales to base Aang, and that feat was done by Base Aang.

Zuko with sozin comet also upscales I think

 

[Nierre]

Zuko FRA

I feel like this match has already been done before.

 

[Therefir]

And I recall Shoto winning that one as well, even in the Death Battle match he won.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Now we need an Endeavor vs Ozai match

 

[Doggo]

Zuko FRA

I feel like this match has already been done before.

maybe? Shoto once had a match against Azula

 

[Doggo]

Now we need an Endeavor vs Ozai match

I can't wait to see Ozai get shit on

 

[Kaio1277999]

I honestly don't understand anything anymore lol, can someone update me please?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

snip.

I am currently responding to this btw, will address others later.

 

[Doggo]

I am currently responding to this btw, will address others later.

Oh no his cooking

 

[Kaio1277999]

I honestly don't understand anything anymore lol, can someone update me please?

?

 

[Doggo]

?

Shoto has more range and aoe but zuko has skill and better fire manip

 

[Doggo]

Zuko should be town level

 

[Nierre]

maybe? Shoto once had a match against Azula

oh right, that's the one

 

[Kaio1277999]

Will you be able to do Ozai vs Endeavor? As far as I remember, Endeavor doesn't have an 8-B key, anyway about the skill itself, I'll repeat the same thing I said in the Shoto thread against Azula,
""""and before you use the argument of the fight that Todoroki had against stain, remember Todoroki was holding back so as not to hit Lida and the others with his ice attacks, and the fight took place in a small alley and that leaves Shoto much more limited, which doesn't happen here, Shoto himself said that can't use his power very well in a group in season three, and yes shoto doesn't have as good control as his fire, but imagine this shoto being the shoto of season four, his fire attacks are much more brutal and have an area of far greater than Azula's fire,And well, Season 4's Shoto won't make the same mistakes he did when facing Stain, and even though he was very limited, he was still able to use his fire to fend off the assassin and the ice to block one of his knife attacks,Shoto can move at high speeds and can be very agile with him, as he demonstrated in the movie 2 heroes, he won't stand still watching her approach him, if she can, and the firebenders don't get weaker in low temperatures? Shoto being as smart as he is, when he realizes that, he's sure to take advantage of it.""""
but now added some more information, is that the Shoto used here is Joint Training Arc Shoto, much stronger and more experienced than the Shoto that faced Stain

 

[SuperStar]

Ozai seeing Endeavor unleashing a Prominence Burn at full power.

 

[Kaio1277999]

Ozai seeing Endeavor unleashing a Prominence Burn at full power.

Lol

 

[Nierre]

Ozai seeing Endeavor unleashing a Prominence Burn at full power.

LMAO

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Snip.

Most of these assumptions/exaggeration on what you believe Todoroki’s actions are do not reflect the actions we have all seen him do on screen/panel. I don’t even need to keep arguing on range with you considering there are other ways around it.

---

1. Todoroki never starts off with such a massive ice attack to freeze his opponent. He almost always use lesser versions of ice attacks. In such cases skillful enemies could easily evade or some could just break/melt the ice like we have seen on screen/panel. Zuko can easily capitalize on this fact to win.
2. EVEN IF Todoroki becomes suicidal and starts spamming humongous ice attacks like you claim he would. It is not a problem for Zuko. If Zuko is frozen solid by it he can simply exhale to escape. This technique was taught by Iroh and he used this to easily escape being trapped in Katara’s ice while weakened. If Todoroki does it again he Zuko simply escapes again by exhaling. Zuko does not need city levels of flames to melt only a fraction of the large ice that’s holding him. Todoroki does not even bury his foes in thick ice (almost always their all of or half of body is visible above ice structure). Todoroki could just end up killing himself if he keeps spamming massive attacks like that because there are times where his fire side doesn’t even help him in cases where he uses extremely powerful ice attacks like when he stopped that Chimera monster with a large ice attack and it practically incapped him.
3. Shoto isn’t going to run away from CQC. We have seen him engage in close quarters combat and keep fighting many times. In practically all his fights even with characters more skilled than he is. So you can’t just basically claim he’s gonna run with his ice sled and keep putting distance to spam more useless ice attacks. Absurd of you to think that.

So no Todoroki is not going keep spamming useless attempts to freeze Zuko in “kilometers of ice” as a starting move. It’s not a move he starts with and it’s not a move he spams with. Neither is Todoroki going to run like a little bitch to avoid an approaching enemy. Zuko can easily work his way around his ice attacks without having to melt them all with “city levels of energy” like @Therefir said and he is smart enough to do that and has done that before. Once Zuko engages Todoroki in CQC, Zuko skill ***** him as I’ve explained briefly here.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

"and before you use the argument of the fight that Todoroki had against stain, remember Todoroki was holding back so as not to hit Lida and the others with his ice attacks, and the fight took place in a small alley and that leaves Shoto much more limited, which doesn't happen here, Shoto himself said that can't use his power very well in a group in season three, and yes shoto doesn't have as good control as his fire, but imagine this shoto being the shoto of season four, his fire attacks are much more brutal and have an area of far greater than Azula's fire,And well, Season 4's Shoto won't make the same mistakes he did when facing Stain, and even though he was very limited, he was still able to use his fire to fend off the assassin and the ice to block one of his knife attacks,Shoto can move at high speeds and can be very agile with him, as he demonstrated in the movie 2 heroes, he won't stand still watching her approach him, if she can, and the firebenders don't get weaker in low temperatures? Shoto being as smart as he is, when he realizes that, he's sure to take advantage of it.""""
but now added some more information, is that the Shoto used here is Joint Training Arc Shoto, much stronger and more experienced than the Shoto that faced Stain

I remember stain calling Todoroki a careless fighter and that he relies on his quirk too much.

Obviously Shoto can unleash his quirk to freeze and/or burn a more skilled opponent.

but you have to consider the fact that Zuko isn’t Stain. That fact makes this entire point moot. Zuko has an answer to his ice and fire side. So Shoto gets ****** up close.