Zelda Stuff (mostly upgrades)

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Wait, does this Ganon have regen that's Godly? You said "regenerate from nothing." Also, Azzy, I want your opinion on Lightspeed stuffs.

"freely regenerate himself and nothing will stop him"

What's the lightspeed stuff based on?

 

[Dark649]

No, that was not it. Ganondorf was defeated and not disintegrated if he was able to regenerate from nothing, then the Heroes did never stood a chance to defeat him.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Wow, my vision is bad lol. It would still qualify for some regen, but I wouldn't expect anything serious.

 

[LordXcano]

I would not say that this or this is genuinely lightspeed for the same reason I'd say a literal ball of light isn't actually lightspeed. Lanayru failing to react isn't indicative of FTL attack speed either, as just being made of light doesn't automatically imply lightspeed reactions as well (see: Kizaru).

The Light Arrows aren't light to begin with, they just have light in them (hence imbued) and can have their speed compared to horses.

 

[Dark649]

Yeah, also i don't remember Ganon in other Zelda games being able to regenerate from above Mid-Low damage.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Xcano

The ones from TP are indeed made of light, not imbued with it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The beings there are sentient constructs of light. Hence why they're rendered Shadows at best when twilight covers the realm. Kizaru, I don't understand why he's being used because he's never always light. He's human. It's like saying Ace is always fire. These beings were born as light and will stay light.

 

[LordXcano]

My point with Kizaru is more that even when he's in his light form he still can't react at the speed of light.

As for why I don't think being of made of light = lightspeed in this case...

They are not spilling out into every possible direction. Light is radiation, they should be massless forms. Yet they aren't. This means they must have something keeping their shape intact, presumably the same thing that allows them to actually touch and lift objects like physical beings. So while they may be lightspeed inside whatever shell keeps their shape, outside of that they can only move as fast as their shell can.

I think that really the only 2 options here are:

• They have a physical shell holding in their light, they are sub-lightspeed unless their shell has lightspeed feats

• They do not have a physical shell holding in their light, their light just has mass which allows them to touch things. In this case they are not real light

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Xcano

Then every form of light manipulation is wrong, since it can interact with matter; cut it, hit it, etc. See the problem with that?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

How do you know they even have mass? No one ever touches them. Zant emits a wave of darkness, and Midna is blasted apart by the light.

 

[LordXcano]

@Lephyr Yeah I see your point. If it weren't for this page, which states:

Furthermore, there are a few criteria which show a beam is NOT real light:

• It is shown at different speeds in the same material
• It is tangible and can be interacted with physically by normal humans
• They do not travel in straight lines (unless you can prove refraction/reflection, see above)

The Light Spirits do both of the bolded things, while the Light Arrows do the middle one. As for the requirements to prove that it is real light:

• The beam refracts in a new material, such as a liquid or...
• The beam reflects off a material that it can be expected to, such as a non-magical mirror
• The beam is called lightspeed by credible scientific sources
• It is stated to be made of photons or light itself, again by a credible scientific source
• It has its origin at a realistic source of light, such as a camera

None of these are met, bar the fourth one. Although I would hardly call medieval people who use magic on the day a "credible scientific source".

 

[Lina_Shields]

Here is a calc for Calamity Gano? Large Planet level is alright it seems.

Also, it would be preferable if Zelda's light arrows were directly stated to be a flash of light, or say that it is lightspeed before we even considered her arrows to be lightspeed, although light/lasers in question does not always need to be intangible.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I responded. Whaddya think of the light stuff yourself, Lina?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Xcaon. Not only does no one ever touch the spirits, but how silly would it be if beings that are always light are forced to move in straight lines always. That's like if we condemned beings who are made of electricity to follow all of the Lightning Dodging Feats, yet we have Rotom. Also, in every Zelda game with light, it has been able to reflect off of mirrors. Hence the Mirror shield even existing.

Also, scientists are credible but gods aren't?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Xcano

"...a beam..."

They are not beams, but rather beings. Again, every single light manipulation showing is not really light manipulation based on your point.

Edit: Since we're at it, the Endless are not concepts and non-corporeal since they have physical form. A physical form that can and has been touched, I might add.

Again, you see the problem with that?

 

[LordXcano]

@Cal Not sure why Rotom is MHS+, being plasma doesn't make you as fast as lightning any more than being air makes you as fast as a tornado.

Also, just because real light appears doesn't mean that therefore every mention of light in the series is now real light. Just because the Living Laser exists in Marvel doesn't mean that every laser that appears is now lightspeed.

@Lephyr Even dropping the fact the Light Spirits are tangible, they do meet requirements that disprove real light but only one of the 5 requirements needed to prove they are real light.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Xcano. Despite the fact that air has different speeds in the same medium, making it impossible to determine its speed.

When real light serves the same function as light arrows, along with the fact that light gods are made of light, it would give more credence to it.

And why? Because gods don't like being beams and take physical forms? Again, if something is heavily implied to be made of light and sentient, then it being forced to always travel in straight lines is asinine.

 

[LordXcano]

@Cal Plasma has different speeds too, it's just another state of matter there's no inherit speed to it any more than there's an inherit speed to a liquid or solid.

I can accept that light arrows use light, and even that the Light Spirits use light. But I don't think the fact that they use light proves that they are lightspeed, just that there is a "light element" in their attacks.

Again, I'm not saying they aren't lightspeed just because they "don't travel in straight lines", I'm saying they aren't lightspeed because:

• They have no feats on this level
• They display tangible and act no differently than any other object in the world

• They are not from a realistic source, they are literally magic

• They do not refract

• In the case of the Light Arrows they are only a few times faster than a horse

• And lastly, they do not travel like light

Meanwhile the only thing suggesting that they are light is a statement that they are made of it. Which, in a world where light, magic, and light-magic is highly prevelant could mean a lot of things.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Then we should downgrade everyone who's a lightning timer.

I'll skip this for now. But I'll move onto your bullets

• I'd love to see Crono's Low 2-C feat, or Cloud's 4-B feat. Or Gohan's MFTL feat.

• For the last time, nobody ever touches them.

• It doesn't have to be a realistic source if you're stated to be light.

• They're only shown in one medium.

• Absolutely terrible reasoning. By your logic, Ganondorf is slower than a horse. Zack Fair is slower than bullets. Crono and crew are slower than cars. Flash is slower than the Rogues' weapons.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with The Real Cal Howard, we cannot use extreme low-end feats as means of disproving higher end feats.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, fiction cares not for all your scientific requirements, the only requirements for something to be Lightspeed in fiction is:

- Stated to be made of light / a beam of light / heat / plasma / etc, from a credible source. In this case, the Gods are about as reliable as you can be.

- Have Lightspeed feats.

That's literally it, fantasy fiction has no obligation to follow science.

 

[LordXcano]

Lightning doesn't get the speed because it's plasma, lightning gets its speed because it is an electrical charge moving through the air.

• They all scale to people who are 2-C/4-B/MFTL though, the feat exists in this case, these guys aren't scaling off of anyone and they don't display any lightspeed feats

• Zant did, according to you

• When it doesn't display any properties of light not being from a realistic source isn't helping it's case

• One of those is in water IIRC, which it doesn't not refract through

• Does Twilight Princess have any good speed feats suggesting otherwise? Not to mention this isn't even a low-end for the Light Arrows, this is literally their only feat. This would be like saying I'm downplaying Batman's magic attack speed because it has "much better feats" when Batman has only fired one magic blast ever

I'd say that arguing the Light Spirits/Light Arrows are genuinely lightspeed despite displaying no properties of light would be like arguing that Luce in Fire Emblem is lightspeed for the same reason.

@Matt

"- Have Lightspeed feats."

Which they don't have. Hence my concern. They're stated to be light, sure, but they have no feats to back it up and don't display any properties of real light.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

I'm not to sure about Zelda in BOTW being scaled to Calamity Ganon but every other incarnation of Link seems valid, though we probably should see where BOTW falls under in the Zelda timeline, so we know which Link gets scaled off him.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The characters proper have much better feats, so saying that the arrows themselves are only faster than horses when they are faster than the characters is invalid.

Furthermore, this is a magic world, with arrows that are magically made, albeit literally made of light and fired as light, just like there are beings made of light in Zelda.

If they refract or not is irrelevant, just like they having mass is irrelevant. Saying that they can move in ways outside of straight lines is not an argument.

 

[LordXcano]

@Matt

The characters in Twilight Princess don't have any feats suggesting they are that fast. They have scaling we can infer is correct, but they don't actually have any feats on their own, which calls the scaling into question.

The arrows are not literally made of light. They are wood/steel just like any other arrow, they just produce light when fired/on contact.

Something failing to display every single property of light isn't an argument?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The scaling > Low End feats. Every time. Just because they don't have feats themselves don't mean we can't scale from characters that do, which they face against,

They are Arrows of Light, the dudes are made of Light.

Fantasy Magical World couldn't give half a **** about all your scientific requirements. If gods from the Zelda world state that they are literal light, they are.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Fine. Bad example. I'd like to see Saitama's planetary feat then. Or Arceus' 2-B feat.

No. I said Zant blasted it with darkness of twilight. The same twilight that gives credence to them being made of light. Heck, the When it emerges from the water, there's nothing but light. And it fades when Zant does his twilight wave.

Luce isn't stated by people of note to be made of light nor exhibits traits in darkness like light does.

 

[LordXcano]

@Matt

Except they don't face against characters with those feats. There are literally no speed feats in all of Twilight Princess.

The Arrows aren't stated to be made of light, again. And the dudes are made of light, but I don't think they are actually lightspeed due to displaying no properties of light.

This argument can be easily flipped around for me to say that "It's a fantasy world and light magic isn't as fast as scientific light". You can't say that everything works like the real world except when it doesn't.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also, false about the being made of wood and steel stuff. They're literally made from the golden lightbulbs of the light spirits.

 

[LordXcano]

I'll concede on what they are made of then @Cal.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Link fought Ganondorf, the same Ganondorf who scales to all of Link's previous incarnations, some of which have very impressive speed feats.

There's your speed feats.

Also all of the light stuff you are ignoring.

 

[LordXcano]

Proof this Ganon scales to all incarnations of Link? We know from BotW that Ganon varies in power per incarnation, this Ganon could just be a particularly weak form.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Read literally any of Cal's posts about the beings made of light.

Breath of the Wild also shows that Ganondorf grows in power with each incarnation, and you literally fight Majora's Mask Link as a boss in Twillight Princess (Confirmed by WoG).

To assume that he is weak is to downplay.

 

[LordXcano]

Yeah, I know that they're light. But I'm saying 1 statement doesn't stack up against several displays of non-real properties. Like if a world in Mario was stated to be a "planet" yet was shown via arials to be only 10 meters long, displayed much lower gravity than even a moon, wasn't even sphereical, and was even shown in orbit around a much more regular sized planet.

No, BotW says that Ganon pooled all of his power into this final incarnation, not that he grows in power every incarnation.

Is it downplay if the evidence points towards it? He doesn't have any good speed feats this incarnation and we know that each incarnation varies in power. So why should we assume that he's MHS+ if he consistently displays sub-MHS speed?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Because he scales to people who have MHS+ feats, and Twili Link fought and defeated Majora's Mask Link, and the Ganondorf he fights is very much implied to be the one from Ocarina that was sealed (Either Ocarina or Link's to the Past, I don't remember much, but one of the two).

That's like saying that Saint Seiya characters' aren't MFTL+ because there are only 8 or 9 MFTL+ feats in the franchise, in comparison to 99% of the fights which don't have any.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

Yeah, I know that they're light. But I'm saying 1 statement doesn't stack up against several displays of non-real properties. Like if a world in Mario was stated to be a "planet" yet was shown via arials to be only 10 meters long, displayed much lower gravity than even a moon, wasn't even sphereical, and was even shown in orbit around a much more regular sized planet.
No, BotW says that Ganon pooled all of his power into this final incarnation, not that he grows in power every incarnation.

Is it downplay if the evidence points towards it? He doesn't have any good speed feats this incarnation and we know that each incarnation varies in power. So why should we assume that he's MHS+ if he consistently displays sub-MHS speed?

Composite Link is already sub-relativistic to relativistic with speed multipliers iirc. I don't see why FTL would be a problem.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Mathew

Actually, the Japanese Version of the HH states that the Hero's Shade is The Hero of Time's regret incarnate, not actually him, since, well... He's spirit reincarnated in TP Link.

Edit: And the Ganondorf he fought was the one from the past. The one from the future of Ocarina (who was sealed) is the one in Wind Waker.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I know, but he is still the Link from before, just as powerful.

 

[Cropfist]

Composite Link is MHS+.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Mathew

And I wouldn't say TP Link scales from him since they were training. Hero's Shade didn't have any killing intent nor displayed anymore than showing him how to use the skills he was teaching. But that's just my interpretation.