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(Yume Nikki Downgrade)

Hykuu

Hykuu

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While scrolling through the Pages for this verse, I found this.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Madotsuki

" Universe level+ via waking up (When she wakes up, the whole Dream World is completely erased until she comes back, as her dreams vanish when she is awake. She can trigger this manually, although it is also triggered automatically when she "dies". The Dream World was shown to be similar to the real world in size several times) "

It states that they are comparable in Size, which would simply be Tri-Dimensional Space, not Space-time.

How would this reasoning be combat applicable? This would be like scaling Finn to his dreaming the Pillow world, or scaling the sleeper to Prismo.
 
Support, i was going to make this downgrade buuut anyways.

Madotsuki erasing the dream world is unquantifiable and not applicable, as this only applies to that Realm, not the real world. Plus Size doesn't warrant the same amount of spatial and temporal dimensions.
 
>Someone makes a Horus Heresy reference in the title, as a joke.

>"offensive and disrespectful!!! we can't tell if you are joking or not even though everyone here knows about Horus Heresy"
 
Disagree.

It states that they're comparable in size, but it also "vanishes", I'd imagine that this involves the entire timeline vanishing, as opposed to everything in it popping out, time ticking along, then popping back. But since it is arguable, I'm neutral on this point.

How would this reasoning be combat applicable? This would be like scaling Finn to his dreaming the Pillow world, or scaling the sleeper to Prismo.

Finn's profile isn't about Finn in the pillow world. It's more like scaling Kirito to him in the video game, or Azathoth to the dream that gets erased when it wakes up. The profiles are from the point of view of the bulk of the fiction, not the "real world" of the fiction.

EDIT: Madotsuki even has a "real world" key, this reasoning is pulled from her key for inside the dream world.
 
I hope you actually read Madotsuki's profile without coming to that conclusion.

Let's see:

Key: Real World | In the Dream World

And how is this portrayed in her profile?


"Attack Potency: Athlete level (Despite being simply a little girl, she was able to jump several meters in the air with a single jump) | At least Town level+ (Able to dispel huge rainclouds over an entire island, if not the entire dream world and is capable of illuminating the entire night sky), likely Large Planet level to Multi-Solar System level (Can murder beings with durability similar to hers). Universe level+ via waking up (When she wakes up, the whole Dream World is completely erased until she comes back, as her dreams vanish when she is awake. She can trigger this manually, although it is also triggered automatically when she "dies". The Dream World was shown to be similar to the real world in size several times)

Speed: Normal Human | Subsonic (She should be as fast on foot as with her witch effect, who managed to fly across a city in seconds) with FTL reaction and combat speed (Can kill Leif before it can react)

Lifting Strength: Regular Human | Unknow

Striking Strength: Human Class | At least Town Class+ (Her knife effect is likely at least as strong as her Umbrella and Yuki-Onna effect), likely Large Planet Class to Multi-Solar System Class

Durability: Athlete level | At least Town level+, likely Large Planet level to Multi-Solar System level(Survived being eaten by Big Red). Immortality makes her hard to kill."

Her real world key places her at the level of a regular human for gods sake.

"Finn's profile isn't about Finn in the pillow world. It's more like scaling Kirito to him in the video game, or Azathoth to the dream that gets erased when it wakes up. The profiles are from the point of view of the bulk of the fiction, not the "real world" of the fiction."

She doesn't even view the Dream World as fiction, she is a normal human IN THE REAL WORLD, not like Azathoth whose mere dreams encompass everything and nothing or One Being, what differentiates them is that Madotsuki is just a normal human who is having these dreams, unquantifiable. I guess any other character from A Nightmare on Elm Street is Low 2-C because they reset their dreams once they wake up and leave the Dream Ream?
 
Yes, her real world key places her at a regular human, because in there she's a regular human. What about that's meant to make me outraged again?

I haven't seen a Nightmare on Elm Street, I don't know if that comparison makes sense.
 
The difference is that, unlike Kirito or anything of the likes, Madotsuki's real-world self actually interacts meaningfully with her dream world. If Kirito's virtual self dies, he actually dies. Which isn't the case here.

Doesn't help that some characters actually lived through her waking up.
 
You were trying to support her being Low 2-C with an Azathoth analogy "She views them as fiction" but the only issue is that we can't place every normal human who has a long dream and resets it once he/she wakes up at Low 2-C, hence why i gave the aNoES as an analogy. She is a regular human who surprisingly erases the dreams she has once she wakes up.

"Yes, her real world key places her at a regular human, because in there she's a regular human. What about that's meant to make me outraged again?"

Because she is a regular human. You need substantiate her being able to erase her own dreams (which is not applicable by any means) is Low 2-C.

I guess Lucid Dreamers from Mortal Kombat or aNoES are Universal+ now?
 
Kirito only dies if his virtual self dies in some seasons iirc. He has profiles from arcs where his virtual self dying won't kill his real self.

If characters lived through her waking up then it probably should be downgraded to 3-A.

@Kahndaq The analogy with Azathoth wasn't "Viewing the dream as fiction" but "Having a key for how your actions affect the dream world". Hence why I also brought up Kirito, a character who has a key for a world which is virtual in-universe.

Because she is a regular human. You need substantiate her being able to erase her own dreams (which is not applicable by any means) is Low 2-C.

It's Low 2-C from the perspective of those within the dream, yes.

I guess Lucid Dreamers from Mortal Kombat or aNoES are Universal+ now? I don't know either of those verse, but if they have keys for the inside of their dream, and they can erase the timeline of those dreams, I don't see why not.
 
He didn't put her at low 2-C in the game's real world. She would be low 2-C from the perspective of the game's game. Azathoth is tier 0 from the perspective of the Cthulhu mythos, not necessarily whatever lay beyond, what Azathoth would "wake up" to (Though the notion of Azathoth being asleep, omnipotent, or even a god are merely meaningless adjectives ascribed to an incomprehensible being from a human perspective, so maybe not the best thing to compare to)
 
I mean, I wasn't the one to bring up Azathoth first, but someone seemed to have a misconception about that above. I wouldn't advise either side to make comparisons to that thing.
 
@wok @agnaa since woki decided to recycle Agnaa's arguments this goes to both of you:

She, only erases the Dream World she has, due to waking up in real life. It is that simple, nothing more. She doesn't erase the dream world from inside, she does it via waking up, ending the dream she has. She is a normal human who has a weird dream like this, becomes the protagonist of the dream and the dream ends once she wakes up in the real world. Unless you two give valid contrary arguments, my point stands still.

Since agnaa decided to use Kirito as an example, her being low 2-C is absurd due to the reasons i have given, but her 7-C to 4-A keys within the dream world make sense.
 
Yeah my bad, thanks for correcting me.

Know any other profiles on this wiki which are fictional in-verse and have characters rated to their involvement in that fictional fiction rather than the fiction's real world?

EDIT: @Kahndaq That's still AP on that dream. From the perspective of that dream world, she has done a low 2-C attack. It doesn't matter what she is outside of that dream, it matters what she does to the dream.
 
Her being a normal human awakening destroying the timeline of her dream world would indeed cause her action of waking up to be seen as low 2-C from the perspective of the dream, though. Also apparently things somehow survive that, not really sure what to think about that though. What's not being argued is that everybody in the real world wields low 2-C amounts of power in the real world, but that by awakening and destroying all she would be enacting low 2-C power when the dream world is considered as reality.
 
I love how everyone chooses to Ignore

" It states that they are comparable in Size, which would simply be Tri-Dimensional Space, not Space-time. "
 
The real world is already a 4D space time continuum, though. A 3D world with time is automatically as such.
 
"Comparable in Size" only refers to physical size. It's only talking about spatial dimensions, not temporal ones. i.e. it makes no comment on the lack or presence of a temporal dimension.

And even if it wasn't, our universe has 3 spatial dimensions and one temporal dimension. So being comparable in all dimensions would make it 4D.
 
"


And even if it wasn't, our universe has 3 spatial dimensions and one temporal dimension. So being comparable in all dimensions would make it 4D."

They are not comparable in all dimensions, nothing supports that. Spatial dimensions are space, directions, while temporal dimensions are dimensions related to time, it is possible to have a Tri dimensional construct with 0 temporal dimensions, and vice versa infact.
 
Dimensional scale is a measure of size, and the default assumption is that stuff like that has time. You would need to somehow show that her dream world does not have time.
 
Yes but I'd presume that time passes in Yume Nikki, right?
 
Size doesn't warrant the same amount of spatial and temporal dimensions , Lol.
 
Hykuu said:
Size doesn't warrant the same amount of spatial and temporal dimensions , Lol.
Click to expand...
Yes but if time passes in a world with 3 spatial dimensions.

Then 3+1 = 4
 
It actually would, generally. If something was comparable in size to an 8D construct, it would have to be 8D itself, as having any fewer dimensions makes it infinitely smaller and having any more makes it infinitely larger.
 
Because most of the game is her dream
 
ZacharyGrossman273 said:
Why is she even ranked by her stats in a dream? A normal human girl dreaming isn't the same as a god or cosmic entity dreaming universes into existence.
Click to expand...
Probably for the same reason why Kirito is ranked on his stats in VR.

Because a substantial amount of the story happens in that dream, so we index characters based on their demonstrated feats within that dream. There's nothing interesting to index in the real world of Yume Nikki.
 
Agnaa said:
Hykuu said:
Size doesn't warrant the same amount of spatial and temporal dimensions , Lol.
Click to expand...
Yes but if time passes in a world with 3 spatial dimensions.
Then 3+1 = 4
Click to expand...
who said it is a space time continuum rather than a realm with closed space?

" It actually would, generally. If something was comparable in size to an 8D construct, it would have to be 8D itself, as having any fewer dimensions makes it infinitely smaller and having any more makes it infinitely larger. "

Nice faulty analogy, The statement i said was directed to this context specfically. Lol
 
Agnaa said:
ZacharyGrossman273 said:
Why is she even ranked by her stats in a dream? A normal human girl dreaming isn't the same as a god or cosmic entity dreaming universes into existence.
Click to expand...
Probably for the same reason why Kirito is ranked on his stats in VR.
Because a substantial amount of the story happens in that dream, so we index characters based on their demonstrated feats within that dream. There's nothing interesting to index in the real world of Yume Nikki.
Click to expand...
Low 2-C calvin and hobbes was rejected for a similar reason, why is this different?
 
@Hykuu I'd assume that it's a space time continuum because there's space and time passes.

@Zachary Well Kirito was accepted for a similar reason, why is this different?

I can't explain the inconsistency to you since I haven't been involved in all these threads. Go make a CRT about this practice overall rather than just focusing on this verse. It's one case in a larger tenuous rule.
 
Universes being space time continuums is the default assumption. You need to show that it has no time, as by default we don't consider them to be closed spaces. The analogy is literally the same thing. You said that being the same size doesn't warrant the same dimensionality, and I explained how dimensionality is tied to size and as such it would indicate that.
 
Agna ffs, cherry picking my entire argument is invalid and you know it. She can only do this to the dream world, suggested by what i said earlier. Repeating this same argument on your side won't justify anything.

And certain Universes can share its own Temporal Dimension, not relevant but js.

Since you two can't provide anything new, we all should wait for Saikou.
 
Of course she can only do it in the dream world.

That's what the profile is based off.

The profile is not based off of the real world, it's based off of the dream world. Kirito is based off of the dream world. Even though an SCP says that all of the SCPs are just a dream in some ordinary girl's head, the verse is still rated based on their feats inside of that dream.

The onus is on you to explain how it's invalid, it's used across many articles and verses as being valid.
 
Jesus Christ. "Onus" stop using words you don't know the meaning of and repeating the same arguments.

"She, only erases the Dream World she has, due to waking up in real life. It is that simple, nothing more. She doesn't erase the dream world from inside, she does it via waking up, ending the dream she has. She is a normal human who has a weird dream like this, becomes the protagonist of the dream and the dream ends once she wakes up in the real world. Unless you two give valid contrary arguments, my point stands still.

Since agnaa decided to use Kirito as an example, her being low 2-C is absurd due to the reasons i have given, but her 7-C to 4-A keys within the dream world make sense."-what i said.

"@Kahndaq That's still AP on that dream. From the perspective of that dream world, she has done a low 2-C attack. It doesn't matter what she is outside of that dream, it matters what she does to the dream."-what you said.

You cherry picked my entire argument and repeated the already debunked. I substantiated my claim and proved how her being Low 2-C is invalid, because she erases the dream world, something which she has within her mind by waking up in real life.

I already debunked the Kirito analogy you made by proving how Madotsuki would only be 7-C to 4-A as the protagonist of her dream, Madotsuki gets these ratings from doing stuff inside her dream, while her Low 2-C status comes from the fact that she resets the world when she wakes up and i gave 3 different analogies on why that doesn't justify her being low 2-C, none of which you refuted by the way.

Yet you still use the same debunked arguments:

"@Zachary Well Kirito was accepted for a similar reason, why is this different?

I can't explain the inconsistency to you since I haven't been involved in all these threads. Go make a CRT about this practice overall rather than just focusing on this verse. It's one case in a larger tenuous rule."

You can't debate this topic at all and abusing Ad Nauseam and Cherry Picking like you always do won't justify your stance in the slightest.

Now, since you aren't going to add anything new at this rate, Saikou's word matters more than both you and Wokistan combined.
 
Madotsuki isn't only 7-C to 4-A as the protagonist of her dream, as she can end that dream, which is Low 2-C. Kirito doesn't have any universal feat to compare this to, so I don't know what you're trying to say here.

It doesn't matter if the actions themselves are performed "inside" or "outside" of the dream (whatever the **** that means since it's all a product of her mind anyway, her willing to dream the end and her willing to blow up a planet are all the product of her mind), what matters is that those actions affected the dream.

Can you please repeat those three different analogies? Sorry, I must not have noticed them.

EDIT: If you don't want things she gets from her "real world" self to be considered for her dream world profile, you should also get rid of her Type 9 Immortality and Void Manipulation.
 
Good job at ignoring my refute once again, ad nauseam on your part, for the fourth time. Well i am not going to repeat my arguments again sooo...

Since you aren't refuting anything i have said, let me repeat my analogies:

aNoES has a Dream Realm and people form their own versions of it once they go to sleep and have a dream, which gets erased once they wake up.

Same with MK, presumably.

Marvel also has a Dream realm, which is ruled by Nightmare and created by the subconsciousness of those who sleep.
 
I already addressed the first two. I'm not familiar with those verses, but if it is actually comparable, and the profiles have keys for inside of the dream, then I think it should be added.

I'm not familiar with Marvel either, but are Nightmare's dream-related feats completely disregarded? He's 2-C so it seems like they'd count, or at least their presence doesn't make him human level.

I promise you I'm not trying to ignore you, if I'm missing the point could you highlight it to me more?
 
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