Yukari Yakumo vs Hakumen

[Andykhang]

A classic fight between a hero and a overlord mastermind. Speed equalization, both at tier 6, win when killed, defeated, or incapacitated. Who would win?

Extra Stage: Both at full powered.

 

[Andykhang]

bump

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

I'd go with yukari by her boundary manipulation hax.that would be a pain for even hakumen

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Yukari wins via the fan art…jk jk jk *shot*

Ok for reals they seem to counter each other as PoO (don't pun it plzzz) cancels things like Reality warping also negating Yukari's magic can be negated by Hakumen. The thing she has is intangibility but idk how useful is that but it can dodge Hakumen's ultimate attack time killer so i would go with Yukari for more hax and the fact Hakumen's ultimate move if she dodges he loses considerable amount of power

 

[Akira1298]

Yukari needs no swords she has her umbrella.


Anyways Yukari might win since more hax.

 

[Andykhang]

So 3-0 then.

 

[Andykhang]

bump

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Yukari via Hax

 

[BowserRulesAll]

Yakumo should take it by virtue of being more hax.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yukari is way more Hax than Hakumen. She takes this in my opinion.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm personally not a fan of the "she's more hax" reasoning, but, well, they're not wrong...

 

[Andykhang]

7-0, then.

...This is almost too easy. I'm going to submit it to the vs thread, but guess I have to add an Extra Stage for this.

So, Extra Stage: What's about Hakumen's 100%?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Ahem, Time Killer rekts at 100% as it doesn't need to charge.

Also AP difference would make it a stomp.

 

[Andykhang]

What if she place a clone in front of him though? And manipulate truth/false so he believe it in the heat of the moment.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I mean it would work, but based on my knowledge of BlazBlue (which is admittedly limited), Hakumen's Time Killer erases the target's past, present and future. I don't know if clones would have the same effect as they are made from the same target, but if it doesn't kill Yukari, the AP and Dura difference will.

Edit: Also, forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Power of Order just one big finger to anyone who wants to use reality warping or time based attacks on Hakumen?

 

[Brunout]

/\ yea. The power of order allows Hakumen to dispell phenomena intervention (reality warping)

 

[Andykhang]

Only if : 1. He's being mindful of using it (searching the wiki doesn't give me an example of him using it without his concious) and 2. He's absolutely unwavering. While there would be some debate about 2, she could easily slip some minor manip here and there without his notice, slowly but surely breaking down his confident and eventually his will. (That's not to mention if Yukari could used that PoO against him by building a new standard around him while he doesn't notice, suddenly making PoO seemingly doesn't work. Or how it's pitted against Yukari's level of manip in the first place)

 

[Brunout]

Hakumen 100% is ALWAYS with his will at max, even when not fighting. Ragna in phase shift noticed that Hakumen at full power has a willpower so strong that was enough to scare the shit out of him, and Hakumen was not even searching for a fight, he was just inspecting a cauldron, without even noticing Ragna there.


Hakumen can notice if the person is a clone or not. It was shown in his story mode in calamity trigger; When he saw Ragna, he instantly said it was a clone, not the real one, despite the same appareance, power and attitude

 

[Andykhang]

That doesn't mean there isn't a laspe in his concentration ...or more accurately... his lapse of concious at the interval between one moment of it and another. If there's any "gap" in it, no matter how small, she could used it.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Wow, actually shocked everyone goes with Yukari on this one.

Although isn't Time Killer basically Sakuya's time erase ability? Erasing the person's time to make them cease existing? If Yukari was said to be able to win against anyone in a non-danmaku match in the profile it implies resistance against it. And still pending for those Large Planet buffs...

 

[Andykhang]

It's her ability's stronger cousin, since it destroy the past too.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Err, destroying 'time' may be much more simpler but the past, present, and future are still 'time'

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Actually, now that I think about it, Hakumen 20% could potentially take this if Time Killer connects... But, the charge up time is still going to mess him up.

 

[Andykhang]

Unless Yukari suddenly becoming someone that's "have her time ended long ago", or just pure dodging.

 

[XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx]

The PoO wins this one pretty easy.

For clarifications if the PoO can negate reality warping from beings with a much higher degree of power. i.e. PoO can negate it from beings such as the Takamagahara system, and Amaterasu. What makes you think that Yukari's powers even hold a candle to these 2?

Hakumen takes this at 20% and stomps at 100%.

 

[XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx]

Hakumen 100% is ALWAYS with his will at max, even when not fighting. Ragna in phase shift noticed that Hakumen at full power has a willpower so strong that was enough to scare the shit out of him, and Hakumen was not even searching for a fight, he was just inspecting a cauldron, without even noticing Ragna there.

Hakumen can notice if the person is a clone or not. It was shown in his story mode in calamity trigger; When he saw Ragna, he instantly said it was a clone, not the real one, despite the same appareance, power and attitude

Adding onto this he used sheer willpower allow to dispel Kokonoe's Phenomenon intervention despite her observation over him, which should in turn give her complete control over his existance. At this point he is merely a projection from the boundary rather than the real thing so suffice to say it's a rather impressive feat.

More onto the clone thing. In Central Fiction's Story Hakumen is able to see and shatter the illusions placed before him by Nine.[Who was using phenomenon intervention from Requiem which is just slightly below The Master Unit.]

Someone mentioned earlier that Yukari's intangibility would come into use, but Hakumen himself is able to slay Terumi despite him being capable of becoming intangible, and is capable of doing so himself. What does Yukari even have to offer against him in battle to begin with if her hax are out of the question? I suppose she could try projectiles, but Hakumen has an ability that directly combats projectiles in the first place.

 

[Brunout]

Adding onto this he used sheer willpower allow to dispel Kokonoe's Phenomenon intervention despite her observation over him, which should in turn give her complete control over his existance. At this point he is merely a projection from the boundary rather than the real thing so suffice to say it's a rather impressive feat.

Also, in centralfiction it was said that the power of order works like an instinct. Celica, which has a little of this power, was able to resist agains't embryo intervention. And she wasn't even aware that she possessed it

http://imgur.com/a/kyG6Z

 

[XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx]

Adding onto this he used sheer willpower allow to dispel Kokonoe's Phenomenon intervention despite her observation over him, which should in turn give her complete control over his existance. At this point he is merely a projection from the boundary rather than the real thing so suffice to say it's a rather impressive feat.

Also, in centralfiction it was said that the power of order works like an instinct. Celica, which has a little of this power, was able to resist agains't embryo intervention. And she wasn't even aware that she possessed it
http://imgur.com/a/kyG6Z

And she has only a small fraction of it. Hakumen should take this no problem at any level. Not only is he basically immune to all the hax she can throw out but he can also negate magic. He has a counter to basically anything she can throw out, and without them she's basically defenseless. This is a mismatch.

 

[Andykhang]

Also, in centralfiction it was said that the power of order works like an instinct. Celica, which has a little of this power, was able to resist agains't embryo intervention. And she wasn't even aware that she possessed it

http://imgur.com/a/kyG6Z

Yeah, but in the game wiki, there's mention an instance in which Hakumen 20% get booted off the field when he is not notice.Instinct or not, some degree of thinking is require.

And I does mention this ability work like a full-body Imagine Breaker than a true Antihax in which it returns the world in some standard. And if you forget, her ability work on that very standard. What stopping her from permanently change it in some place he doesn't notice, especially since she got the capabilities to?

 

[XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx]

Also, in centralfiction it was said that the power of order works like an instinct. Celica, which has a little of this power, was able to resist agains't embryo intervention. And she wasn't even aware that she possessed it
http://imgur.com/a/kyG6Z

Yeah, but in the game wiki, there's mention an instance in which Hakumen 20% get booted off the field when he is not notice.Instinct or not, some degree of thinking is require.
And I does mention this ability work like a full-body Imagine Breaker than a true Antihax in which it returns the world in some standard. And if you forget, her ability work on that very standard. What stopping her from permanently change it in some place he doesn't notice, especially since she got the capabilities to?

Her abilities don't extend that far. The PoO is an absolute, and cannot be tampered. Yukari isn't NEAR the level of The Master Unit, like I said before. if the Master Unit is unable to do anything to the ability what chance does Yukari have? He'd dispel it and then make short work of her. You're not really taking into consideration Hakumen can use this ability to his own advantage, whether or not it "returns the world to a standard". Can you give me an example of her being capable of doing so?

That happens after he gets knocked out, Yukari isn't going to be knocking him out any time soon if she can't do anything against him. Whether or not that doesn't matter because Hakumen is also immune to mind manipulation.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Wow. And I thought I can't get anymore confused by Blazblue anymore. Either way I can't really be sure of the absolution of your claims though.

 

[XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx]

Wow. And I thought I can't get anymore confused by Blazblue anymore. Either way I can't really be sure of the absolution of your claims though.

The PoO grants negation of reality warping against him on the scale of Takamagahara System, Requiem, and Amaterasu, all of which are around the 2-C range. [Requiem is debatable, but it's supposedly close to Amaterasu in function.] I don't know where you guys get the idea of Yukari being able to manipulate something of that magnitude. All that said, Touhou seems to be way more confusing in regards to how Yukari's power actually works. From what I'm read though it has some pretty big limitations in effect. Namely the fact she is incapable of creating gaps to the moon, or too an area because gods inhabit it. The fact that she has limitations with something as small as that gives me no doubt his PoO triumphs over any sort of reality warp she could throw at him. Not to mention all his immunity to those hax to begin with.

The difference here is that her ability has limits, and they do not reach those of what Hakumen is able to deal with.

 

[Akira1298]

One of those limits were actually never proved, Besides the one of the moon that has actually an explanation, anyways the explanation of why she coudln't get to the moon is because an certain character could block her powers since they could control the boundary between the moon and the earth, and that might be why Yukari needed an lake to gap the entire Youkai army to the moon.


But the part of her powers not working in the Moriya Shrine is based off what Yukari said on one of the games there wasn't any proof, Yukari tends to lie a lot so it's very likely that she lied about it like she does most of the time.

 

[XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx]

One of those limits were actually never proved, Besides the one of the moon that has actually an explanation, anyways the explanation of why she coudln't get to the moon is because an certain character could block her powers since they could control the boundary between the moon and the earth, and that might be why Yukari needed an lake to gap the entire Youkai army to the moon.

But the part of her powers not working in the Moriya Shrine is based off what Yukari said on one of the games there wasn't any proof, Yukari tends to lie a lot so it's very likely that she lied about it like she does most of the time.

Well it's pretty vague on how her abilities work so you'll have to take what they say with a grain of salt. You're comparing a very vague ability to one that's well described. It proves that her ability has it's limits. Besides, what reason does she have to lie about that? That sounds silly.

Lets also not forget character personality. How would Yukari's personality work against Hakumens? From what I see she appears to be lazy and doesn't take things very serious, meanwhile Hakumen is strong willed and always takes things seriously, he would be much likely to finish things quickly.

All this being said, lets not forget his only actual weakness on his page that applies to this battle is that he's lowered to her level, and that's with just raw power alone. That doesn't affect his immunities or his anti-hax.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

It proves.... there's no proving. The only limitations are your self imposed ones. Vague is harder to define which makes it even more of a pain to debate. To say an ability is weaker because it's vague is absurd considering the scale of what Yukari can affect and considering the amount of people. Also I'm kinda surprised there's no 2-C Hakumen lying about if what you're saying is true. Aren't you overblowing him a little?

You realize that in the later games where there are actual stakes, Yukari has gone MIA? Actually doing who knows what? Not to mention the eradication of Gensokyo which would've involved the other worlds there, something that would require at least planetary scales of destruction was something she doesn't even care about or isn't worried about? Point is Yukari can be serious when the enemy is powerful enough, and from her treatment on how she dealt and tricked Toyohime, it certainly doesn't seem like she's lazing about or taking anything casually. To claim she never takes anyone seriously is absurd. She's not Gilgamesh or Yhwach levels of cockiness.

And you kidding right? The other weaknesses still apply with the exception of working together with others. He's only able to use 20% of his power which could apply to his stats and abilities. Power typically defines the person and their capabilities. Simply absurd on how you're overblowing Hakumen.

 

[XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx]

It proves.... there's no proving. The only limitations are your self imposed ones. Vague is harder to define which makes it even more of a pain to debate. To say an ability is weaker because it's vague is absurd considering the scale of what Yukari can affect and considering the amount of people. Also I'm kinda surprised there's no 2-C Hakumen lying about if what you're saying is true. Aren't you overblowing him a little?
You realize that in the later games where there are actual stakes, Yukari has gone MIA? Actually doing who knows what? Not to mention the eradication of Gensokyo which would've involved the other worlds there, something that would require at least planetary scales of destruction was something she doesn't even care about or isn't worried about? Point is Yukari can be serious when the enemy is powerful enough, and from her treatment on how she dealt and tricked Toyohime, it certainly doesn't seem like she's lazing about or taking anything casually. To claim she never takes anyone seriously is absurd. She's not Gilgamesh or Yhwach levels of cockiness.

And you kidding right? The other weaknesses still apply with the exception of working together with others. He's only able to use 20% of his power which could apply to his stats and abilities. Power typically defines the person and their capabilities. Simply absurd on how you're overblowing Hakumen.

I never said he was 2-C, I said he was capable of negating reality warp from characters at the 2-C level. Negation=/=Destructive Capability. Yukari has nothing on that level, so how am I overblowing him?

How are these self imposed? They're literally on her page. If you want to complain about them, please try and get them removed from the page if they are not applicable for a weakness.

You do realize that nearly ALL of his abilities on there are from 20% right? His only disadvantage is that is put down to country level [Which he could be higher considering he shows more feats later on.] Near all the feats provided on his page are gotten from Hakumen while he is at 20%. Hakumen since that's the only one we actually see throughout the games. Him being prideful and stubborn kind of factors into his problem with working together with others, as he refuses to set aside his pride to work with some, and is just plain stubborn when it comes to being told what to do. If anything, you're on reinforcing my point on why Hakumen stomps in this battle.

If anything I'm not overblowing Hakumen, you're the one overblowing Yukari.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Typically when you're comparing scales you have to resort to that method. If you can negate that level of power from someone that's on the level of 2-C you're typically on that same range from what I've witnessed and no one is going to spare that feat lying around. People would've talked about it before.

Guess what. I did. We pointed out the flaws of you claiming weaknesses when they're kinda on a grand scale with the output of lunarian magicians. By that I mean lunarians are absurdly powerful. Of course I'm not claiming they're 2C, even if one of them can technically summon one of (if not) the strongest 3-A in existence, but it's a notable damn feat.

And we're not using anything higher aside from the bonus. Your point? Hell there's already feats discussing the Planetary state of Touhou and I already argued my case on just what level of power Yukari seems to not care about and deem as weak. I'm not going to push any further since I just wanted to point that out. Why are you even pointing out the pride issue? All I'm saying is that he has actual weaknesses and that he's being used at his 20%. Nothing more nothing less unless you're talking about the bonus round. Reinforcing? You're kidding me. I don't know how you got into that scenario but that's not the case here. I believe Yukari has a higher likelihood of winning and I ain't saying anyone stomps either.

The only thing I did are point out the mistakes on Hakumen and point out a feat and point out how the feat of negating something a 2-C did should be pretty damn notable. Keep trying.

 

[XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx]

You see, this is the problem. You're arguing against the abilities main power. It's literally made to detect and dispel reality warping, and more notably that from Amaterasu and the Takamagahara system. It's not only limited to that either, as shown by him being able to cast aside interventions from Kokonoe. More examples of this come from Celica (Someone with significantly less experience with it) being able to counter the Emrbyo's intervention. (Which was made by Amaterasu.) This extends to him resisting interventions be Requiem, which is arguably closer to Amaterasu than the Takamagahara System.The definitive use of the PoO is to resist reality warping by Amaterasu.

 

[Andykhang]

...You know that you kinda lose most of your credibility if you have to made your point in bold? Also you still didn't explain that how someone that could dispel a tier 2 feat isn't a tier 2 himself, so I'm inclide to buy into COB word.

 

[XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx]

...You know that you kinda lose most of your credibility if you have to made your point in bold? Also you still didn't explain that how someone that could dispel a tier 2 feat isn't a tier 2 himself, so I'm inclide to buy into COB word.

The bold thing was an accident, I'll fix that up.