Yu-gi-oh! Anime Upgrades

[Overlord775]

@SomebodyData
1. No, Acell is definition requires both monsters to be synchro, also Z-One said a tuner is a requirement, not the only thing needed
2. not really, Crimson Dragon scales above 6 marks Yusei, Stardust is in the same ballpark as C.
Dragon
3. Not how downscaling works

also TBF Red Nova Dragon very likely doesn't have the power of prime Nova, what with it being sealed and losing his physical form, as swell as Crimson Dragon rather easilly taking care of it instead of being pushed to it's limits

 

[SomebodyData]

Zencha

Since you guys are both on the same 'side' maybe you guys should talk to each other about what your views on duels are? Because Overlord ignores card mechanic amps in the Paradox match but you accepted it with your argument about the trap card making them equal. You guys have to choose one and stick with it.

Overlord

1. Z-One said the tuner is a requirement but I don't think commenting on whether the other monster has to be a synchro.
2. So Crimson Dragon > Stardust > 6 Marks Yusei with OTCM? Where are you A- getting your scaling from? B- that doesn't change the absurdity of Stardust being above 6 Marks Yusei, who by your own scaling would be stronger than T.G. and Shooting Star.
3. Ye, we scale you down to the next available feat like Yamcha for example.
4. I'm pretty sure it was stated Red Nova Dragon has the Nova's full power, or at the very least, it was never stated to have been weakened.

 

[Zencha9]

my take on game mechanic is that animation > effect so i stand still
the whole point of accel synchro is that it uses synchro monsters as a material

 

[SomebodyData]

I thought you said a trap card made them equal? Also, the animation is a direct result of the card mechanics; it's just the same thing without admitting you agree to the card mechanics.
Ye, I'm pointing out though that it's the synchro tuner part that matters though, not the other material. Especially considering Shooting Star Dragon can be synchro summoned without another synchro material

EDIT: NVM, anime Battle Waltz has a slightly different effect, so scratch the last part.

 

[Overlord775]

@SomebodyData

1. Acell Summoning always requires it. Where are you getting that Shooting Star doesn't require 2 Synchro monsters ?

2. It's more:

Crimson Dragon > 6 Mark Yusei

Crimson Dragon > Stardust Dragon

also again, t.g. doesn't matter at all in the feat, as it was Antimony that did it, Shooting Star was powered by 6 Mark Yusei during the last fight.

3. Yamcha doesn't even have downscaling tho

4. if Red Nova was at full power it wouldn't have required Jack's body

 

[SomebodyData]

1. I mistook Battle Waltz's anime effect, so it's my bad. Though there is an argument to be made considering Z-One doesn't have Stardust but can summon Shooting Star Dragon
2. And where does Shooting Star, BBT Yusei, Antimony, etc fit? Once the full scaling chain is present, the contradictions begin to show themselves.
3. The page notes: (Should not be much weaker than Krillin and Tien. Despite suffering a crushing defeat from Kami, the latter praised his technique.)
4. I'm a bit confused here, considering Shooting Star also requires Yusei's body (Clear Mind), so I'm not sure how its different.

 

[Zencha9]

well i do agree with card mechanics being a thing but not always

 

[Overlord775]

1. Z-One skipped the synchro summoning entirely tho
2. Crimson Dragon > Quasar > Blazar > Star > Stardust
3. See how Yamcha is 7-B like Krillin and Tien
4. That's not even comparable, it's not that Shooting Star needs Yusei's body, it's that Yusei needs Clear Mind to summon it

 

[SomebodyData]

1. Nah, Z-One used Shooting Star Dragon back in the flashback of the future.
2. Right, and Majestic Star Dragon? Noting how Majestic is < to even Shooting Star. Not to mention, none of this explains how it would scale back to BBT Yusei.
3. "Despite suffering a crushing defeat from Kami, the latter praised his technique."
4. Red Nova needed Jack's body to summon him too, it's the exact same.

 

[Overlord775]

1. Yes and he did so by just summoning Shooting Star, not synchro summoning at all, just:

Clear Mind Boom Shooting Star

2. Majestic Dragon rappresents like the power of the Crimson Dragon and easilly killed the leader of the Earthboudn Immortals, as swell as requiring 5 Marks

so he should be at least as strong as Shooting Star if not outright stronger

3. that's not even AP tbh, tecnique is skill

4. sorry, it seems you haven't understood Red Nova litterally needed Jack's body, as in that he wanted to possess him. Also this whole argument is based on ATK point scaling, which yourself said shouldn't be used.

 

[SomebodyData]

1. Oh that's what you mean, yeah I'd assume without game mechanics that'd be possible.
2. No, Majestic Star Dragon << Shooting Star Dragon, otherwise there wouldn't be a need for Clear Mind to begin with. Also, Shooting Star Dragon killed the ing of the Netherworld, didn't it? Something even the Crimson Dragon couldn't do alone. That'd imply Quasar > Blazar > Shooting Star > Majestic Star > Crimson > Stardust.
3. I'm not the one trying to scale BBT Yusei to a technique TCM Antimony had?
4. I understand, it's just not that much of a difference, as summoning Shooting Star literally needs Yusei to have Clear Mind according to your previous arguments. No, the argument is based on your scaling regarding Crimson Nova, not ATK.

 

[Overlord775]

2. Majestic Star Dragon required a specific tuner to summon, which uh, i guess Crimson Dragon only allowed Yusei to use against the Dark Signers since it was used just in that ark.
also, considering how all "Shooting" evolutions are derived from the Crimson Dragon's power, saying that they are stronger than it makes 0 sense
IMO, Majestic > Quasar makes sense since the former is directly linked with Crimson Dragon and even served as it's physical vessal when it killed the king of the neatherworld

3. i'm not trying to scale BBT, i'm trying to scale Stardust
4. The difference is that Shooting Star is not activelly trying to reach the material plane, he's being summoned there. Nova's servant was able to summon him, but it still required Jack's body to be reborn. Also your argument against the scaling is because Shooting Star destroed Red Nova Dragon, which was because of the fact Yusei increesed it's ATk points with a trap

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm with SD

 

[Zencha9]

in term of what because there's alot of stuff going on

 

[SomebodyData]

1. No, Yusei still has access to Majestic Star Dragon when he dueled the Aesirs and Meklords even, but could only win the latter duel through exploiting that Wisel was made up of several weaker monsters (Wisel Top). Also ep 89 has him directly remember this card when thinking about how only accel synchro summoning will be enough to beat the meklords.
2. Which would scale all the way to the beginning of the series and BBT, again its an attempt at indirectly affecting the scaling much like how the High 4-C feat switched from T.G. to the summoning method.
3. He needed Jack's body to maintain his form forever, much like the rest of the Earthbounds. It's not something ever stated to affect AP.
   Yes, but I'm not the one arguing animations despite being directly connected to the card mechanics matter, right?

 

[Zencha9]

just want to ask what makes shooting star above to red nova ?

 

[SomebodyData]

It was stated multiple times that defeating the Meklords require Accel Synchro Summoning- anything short of that wouldn't be enough (Later retconned a bit to Top Clear Mind, but the point still stands); though it really doesn't matter if it's stronger or weaker than Shooting Star as long as it's weaker than Quasar as Red Nova would be stronger than the Crimson Dragon based on Overlord's scaling.

This is all downstream from the issue that it's absurd to give T.G. Halberd's / Delta Accel Synchro Summoning's High 4-C feat to the Stardust Dragon.

 

[Zencha9]

okay
so is scaling stardust to crimson devil makes sense or not ?

 

[SomebodyData]

I'm still shaky about that- we're scaling it based on an image that only shows the Signer Dragons w Crimson Dragon and Crimson Devil confronting each other, not actually showing how the fight went (And we do know the Signer Dragons never actually beat it- it was sealed by a Burning Soul Signer)

 

[Zencha9]

i mean they still fought it and while yes they didn't beat they still fought it for a considerable amount of time
they fought it for enough time to drive crimson dragon to it's limits
also likely and possibly were made for stuff like this if it's that unclear

 

[SomebodyData]

An unknown amount of time- Zencha already linked the episode, the only times the signer dragons were mentioned was in the one image and that's it. When the Crimson Devil was sealed and the Crimson Dragon was pushed towards defeat, the signer dragons weren't there.
The episode mentions that this Earthbound was a cut above the rest, so I don't think them being made (If it was true) to fight regular Earthbounds (Which still needed to become Majestic to defeat btw) means they scale.

 

[Zencha9]

okay sure stardust and the rest of the sginers dragons won't scale to crimson devil it makes more sense this way
but what about scaling the rest to shooting star like zushin and the nordic gods and the egyptian gods

 

[SomebodyData]

I don't mind scaling to Zushin or the Aesir Gods (As it was stated several times that they have the power to take down the Three Nobles' Meklords), but not sure it was stated that Shooting Star was equal to the Egyptian Gods.

 

[Overlord775]

1. No, Yusei still has access to Majestic Star Dragon when he dueled the Aesirs and Meklords even, but could only win the latter duel through exploiting that Wisel was made up of several weaker monsters (Wisel Top). Also ep 89 has him directly remember this card when thinking about how only accel synchro summoning will be enough to beat the meklords.

well, point still stands, Majestic Star Dragon can only be summned if Crimson Dragon feels like it

and i don't seem to see where in episode 89 Yusei said that, like the episode was about the wester arc

Also wasn't accell summon needed more to avoid the capture effects of the Meklords ?

1. Which would scale all the way to the beginning of the series and BBT, again its an attempt at indirectly affecting the scaling much like how the High 4-C feat switched from T.G. to the summoning method.

why would it be a problem ? like the first main villains of the serie are already directly tied to the Crimson Dragon and if you mean Duel Monsters/gx, the monsters there don't really have any anti-feats

also, Zencha was the one that said tg made the feat

1. He needed Jack's body to maintain his form forever, much like the rest of the Earthbounds. It's not something ever stated to affect AP.
   Yes, but I'm not the one arguing animations despite being directly connected to the card mechanics matter, right?

mind pointing me where that is said ?

also, Nova the first time drove Crimson to it's limits, while in that battle the flatter easilly dealt with it permanently.

also, the signer dragons definitelly fought as there would have been no point showing them others and they are directly linked with the Signs, so it would make no sense they would have died prior to those being made

lack in memory, my bad

 

[SomebodyData]

It's a bit hard for me to believe that the Crimson Dragon wouldn't let Yusei summon the Majestic Star Dragon upon several occasions.

There is a pretty big amount of power escalation between BoS and EoS 5D's. What my comment was trying to say is that all its doing is trying hide an inconsistency considering it's pretty apparent that scaling to T.G. would have been a big no-no.

It's kind of the plot of 5D's, I don't have the scan on me, but Zencha would be able to back me up about the Earthbound immortals trying to escape to Earth. I mean, by 5D's the Signer Dragons are reduced to spirits, so we know they inevitably died, the question is just how / when.

 

[Zencha9]

I don't mind scaling to Zushin or the Aesir Gods (As it was stated several times that they have the power to take down the Three Nobles' Meklords), but not sure it was stated that Shooting Star was equal to the Egyptian Gods.

zushin was stated to be equal to the Egyptian gods

 

[Overlord775]

@Zencha9

question, where did you get that Majestic is the embodiment of Crimson Dragon's power ?

It's a bit hard for me to believe that the Crimson Dragon wouldn't let Yusei summon the Majestic Star Dragon upon several occasions.

i mean, not in every duel Yusei fought he had access to it [for exemple he didn't use it for the entirity of the wrpg minus vs the norse gods

also, it Majstic Star does require a bit of set up to summon, so there's that too or in other situations it's "can only stay up for 1 turn" is very problematic

There is a pretty big amount of power escalation between BoS and EoS 5D's. What my comment was trying to say is that all its doing is trying hide an inconsistency considering it's pretty apparent that scaling to T.G. would have been a big no-no.

Except i'm not hiding anything, Zencha was simply wrong there, like it's even in the profile

It's kind of the plot of 5D's, I don't have the scan on me, but Zencha would be able to back me up about the Earthbound immortals trying to escape to Earth. I mean, by 5D's the Signer Dragons are reduced to spirits, so we know they inevitably died, the question is just how / when.

the plot of 5Ds is that they are sealed

all the other Earthbound Immortals are clearly back to normal once unsealed, but Red Nova didn't have a proper shape once summned by his familiar

Yu-gi-oh monsters are always spirits, so that point is moot

 

[Zencha9]

in the duel against the nordic gods yusei summons Majestic star dragon and when he summons it crow and jack mention that he has the power of the crimson dragon

and harald says that he's the embodiment of Crimson Dragon

edit:keep in mind that yusei did not use the marks or the crimson dragon's power nor accel synchro

 

[Zencha9]

also about the t.g thingy didn't i already say that the feat comes from manipulating ener-d ? if i didn't say so then i'm gonna make myself more clear
but yeah my take on the t.g feat is that it manipulates ener-d (energy) and thus making people who can accel synchro scale to it



edit: also i don't get the power escalation thingy
GX was town level to it planet level at the beginning then S3 came out and the threat level was portrayed to be universal to low multi (not saying LoD and yubel are on that level yet but narratively they are portrayed to be on that level)
zexal came from high star to universal threats ( somehow everyone forgot how the numeron code works, this is also ignoring the sizes of astral and barian worlds and how they are portrayed )
Arc-V came from small building level to low multi
DM came from building level to large planet

 

[SomebodyData]

Zencha - I don't mind scaling people who can Delta Accel Synchro Summon to T.G.'s feat. Though I think we might have to revise the page after everything that has been debated:

Base | Over Top Clear Mind (If someone makes an Alt. Yusei profile, it'd be like that except with Top Clear Mind instead). Do we have any feats to scale to Dark Signers (Other than Zero Reverse, since you guys want to treat Ener-D as regular duel energy) Saga Yusei or Clear Mind Yusei?

I'll probably need to rewatch the episode with Zushin, but wasn't the card exceedingly common? We sure they weren't talking about being as powerful as the God Cards mechanics-wise? Although, if the guy who said it was knowledgeable on the true power of the God Cards, then sure, it probably scales.

Overlord - It's still one of Yusei's strongest cards, which he needed several times against the Meklords and several opponents.

I'll let you guys debate that here.

They hadn't been fully unsealed, as they can appear in the real world for some periods of time but had to get a way to maintain their true forms permanently.

I don't remember if the Signer Dragons were spirits back thousands of years ago. Also Yu-Gi-Oh monsters aren't always spirits- just look at the origins of Blue-Eyes White Dragon and Dark Magician for that.

 

[Zencha9]

sure. i was planning on revising DM manga&anime but upon rewatching a little bit of GX and 5D's i realized that it was impossible to revise DM alone without GX and 5D's
i would say. base and with the Crimson Dragon power | Over Top Clear Mind . what do you think? i'm fine with either one of them

yes it was common everyone had it even leo. i mean the gods are well known as legendary monsters and no he wasn't talking about the card effects and in the flashbacks it showed the gods themselves not their cards

 

[SomebodyData]

It isn't really base if he has the Crimon Dragon's power, but I wouldn't mind: Base | With the Crimson Dragon | Over Top Clear Mind.

I dunno, I'll have to rewatch that. Given unworthy users would die if they had the God Cards, it seems a bit hard to believe that the monster is their equal when everyone has it.

 

[Overlord775]

Overlord - It's still one of Yusei's strongest cards, which he needed several times against the Meklords and several opponents.

which he tecnically doesn't even have in his deck since Crimson needs to magic it in

They hadn't been fully unsealed, as they can appear in the real world for some periods of time but had to get a way to maintain their true forms permanently.

wasn't the point of the arc was that they were unseealed by the Dark Signers tho ?



anyway, top clear mind litterally comes from the Mark of the Dragon, so CM being inferior to it would make no sense

I don't remember if the Signer Dragons were spirits back thousands of years ago. Also Yu-Gi-Oh monsters aren't always spirits- just look at the origins of Blue-Eyes White Dragon and Dark Magician for that.

considering basically every monster shown in the serie was a duel spirit, the negative would need to be proved, not the positive.

Also, Blue Eyes was Kisara's Ka, so it was always a spirit, meawhile Dark Magician was created by Muhuad fusing his Ba and Ka, which is something that couldn't have happened to the Signer Dragons

I dunno, I'll have to rewatch that. Given unworthy users would die if they had the God Cards, it seems a bit hard to believe that the monster is their equal when everyone has it.

god cards only killed those who used counterfeit versions of them tho

 

[Zencha9]

It isn't really base if he has the Crimon Dragon's power, but I wouldn't mind: Base | With the Crimson Dragon | Over Top Clear Mind.

I dunno, I'll have to rewatch that. Given unworthy users would die if they had the God Cards, it seems a bit hard to believe that the monster is their equal when everyone has it.

i mean in base he has the mark and can summon the crimson dragon at will but i'm fine with either way
i mean everyone has it they just can't summon it

when zushin got summoned the narrator literally says that it's the first time in duel monsters history that zushin got summoned

 

[Overlord775]

HOLY SHIT

****** Trishula

Duel Terminals is canon to the anime

 

[SomebodyData]

Overlord

No, but yes. Arc-V like I mentioned showed a significant amount of OCG cards (including duel terminal) but its pretty self-evident duel terminal's storyline isn't canon.

Zencha

I mean sure, but we still separate for example, Base Goku from SSJB.

Just like Exodia

That's fair. Though, I guess I'm still hesitant on scaling based on a duel.

 

[Overlord775]

y u so party pooper >:T

also, you forgot to respond to my reply to you Data

 

[SomebodyData]

Srry

Yeah, but seems rather hard to believe the Crimson Dragon would randomly prevent Yusei from summoning Majestic Star Dragon for no reason.

I think the Mark of the Dragon is a requirement for Over Top Clear Mind, but not something that powers it. Yusei used the Mark of the Dragon before, but Antimony makes it pretty clear that even basic Clear Mind is needed here.

That's like saying all humans are spirits because of their ka. Blue-Eyes and Dark Magicians were at one point, humans, and I think that's what matters at my point.

Remind me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't people who weren't worthy also be harmed?

 

[Zencha9]

pretty sure he wasn't talking about power in terms of dueling but sure
what's left ? because i'm pretty lost on what both of are arguing

 

[Overlord775]

1. you mean like how it didn't show up at all during the Crash Town Arc or any fight in the wrpg beside vs the Norse ?

2. I fee like clear mind is more just a state of mind needed to use acell rather than a boost in-of itself tbh. also he never has used the FULL Mark of the Dragon that moment, didn't he ?

3. Very false equalacy, Ka is the spirit created by the user's Ba, a spirit made out of spirit energy, which is very much not the same as the user.

Blue Eyes was never a huma PERIOD, Dark Magician comes from a guy that quite litterally fused his soul with a monster spirit, so it's an exception not the rule

4. only thing i remember about that is the vague "You may not be able to hadle Obelisk's power" but not more, also i'm pretty sure Team Taiyo fits under the Yu-gi-oh definition of "worthy"

@Zecha9

High 4-C and MFTL+ for normal monsters

would say a higher rating for the god cards and those who scale, but Zushin existing very much complicates things