Yu-gi-oh! Anime Upgrades

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Soo what exactly is left to do here? Because at this point im seeing just a lot of back and forth discussions

 

[Overlord775]

the high 4-C and the MFTL+ scaling

 

[Zencha9]

Soo what exactly is left to do here? Because at this point im seeing just a lot of back and forth discussions

discuss the 12 dimensions
jokes aside all that's left is who scales to high 4-C and MFTL+

 

[SomebodyData]

Overlord

So does the scaling chain end with Neos- never reaching Yusei? My issue here is that the scaling shouldn't reach Stardust to begin with- the summoning method for a creature that exceeded all of Stardust's previous evolutions doesn't make sense to scale to Stardust's weakest (?) form.

This was before he was revealed to be one wasn't it?

I'm pretty sure the signer marks can do much more than that, I'll look for scans if you want.

Zencha

What is it?

The growing stronger part you're right about, its the 'taking control over its user' that makes it unique. Not even Bakura in his hate had that happened.

 

[Overlord775]

So does the scaling chain end with Neos- never reaching Yusei?

Why would the scaling ever reach BBT Yusei ?

My issue here is that the scaling shouldn't reach Stardust to begin with- the summoning method for a creature that exceeded all of Stardust's previous evolutions doesn't make sense to scale to Stardust's weakest (?) form.

You do realize that Quazar was created out of the combination of 5 of the six Signer Dragons, right ?

also, why would the Summoning need to be inherently stronger ?

This was before he was revealed to be one wasn't it?

i don't see your point here

I'm pretty sure the signer marks can do much more than that, I'll look for scans if you want.

sure, do that

 

[Zencha9]

1-It's the energy that comes from the soul and strong will that's not energy that's Ka/blue eyes
2-yeah blue eyes possess the user's body as a vessel but the user still has BA of their own so KA and BA arent the same in blue eyes's case sure they are linked but not the same thing
Also if they were the same thing then P seto would've died

 

[SomebodyData]

Overlord

Then who are you trying to scale Stardust to, just Neos? Seems different then what I thought I read earlier.

In-game mechanics, yeah, he could have summoned Quasar through any synchros (for example, Junk Warrior, Jet Warrior, and Formula Synchron). If you mean Quasar is the explicit merging of the Signer Dragons in terms of power, then no.

You don't think Delta Accel Synchro Summoning, which in this case caused a star to go supernova, isn't stronger than regular version, which even with the Old Ener-D coming from synchro summoning throughout the city, was only 7-C?

It's relevant because he has Roman's arm in a separate container at that point in the series. It's with him, just not on him.

Rex refers to the actions of the signers as the actions of the Crimson Dragon when talking about how the Earthbounds were sealed (11:20). Sorry, going to have to watch some episodes at a time, so this isn't it atm, just some supporting evidence for now.

Zencha

You're describing Ba there.

Blue-Eyes at no point had control over Kisara's body. If you have scans, please go ahead, but the entire point of the White Dragon was that she couldn't control it from destroying their surroundings when it was outside of her.

Not sure how he would have died, P Seto would have had his Ba returned much like Kisara?

 

[Zencha9]

1-Yes im describing Ba Because the video didn't show Ba coming form kisara it showed Ka/blue eyes
2- yeah in the manga it was stated that blue eyes possess her that's why she gets unconscious when blue eyes appears same thing applies in the anime
http://zjcdn.*********.org/store/manga/6710/05-033.0/compressed/n001-115_035_ygo.jpg?token=887db0c952de7f796f9b250fe58d2d77b4c3f33f&ttl=1609246800
3-When a ka dies the user loses a big amount of BA it's been shown multiple times if blue-eyes was completely one with the user's Ba then P kaiba would've died when blue-eyes died
4- i didn't see that part of the argument but shimon was describing evil Ka in general nothing in the show says that Dark Spirit of Chaos was unique in any way

 

[Smashtwig]

Oh, unrelated, but, I recall in GX, the Sacred Beasts absorb the dueling spirits of the cards... does that... mean anything here?

 

[Zencha9]

That's just hax

 

[Smashtwig]

Like, I recall there was an argument of the cards being real or not or whatever so... Yeah

 

[Zencha9]

Some spirits in GX are real
Shadow games can make monsters real
Some dimensions can make monsters real (desert dimension)
There's even a day where every spirit becomes real

 

[SomebodyData]

1. ...For a fusion of Blue-Eyes White Dragons?
2. The manga is different in a lot of things- so I wouldn't be using it for the anime. However, your panel literally states that her Ka and Ba are united, so either way it would prove my point.
3. P Seto's Ba isn't the same as White Dragon's Ka though.
4. Like I said before, it really doesn't matter if its unique or not here.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

We have now reached 4 pages in this thread with a lot of back and forth. We need to try and wrap things up here without dragging this out

 

[Zencha9]

1-yes? The fusion only had KAs in it i didn't see any Ba being transfered or anything like that
2-yes the anime is diffrent but it the manga explained how kisara's Ka & Ba works meanwhile the anime skipped most of them so i think it's safe to use it here
And i've been saying this for a while my guy yes they are United in some way but they are not the same concept they can't be the same thing
3-why would it not? When kisara/blue-eyes destroyed aknadin while possesing P seto she became in his soul and when he died we saw blue-eyes's Ka come from his body meaning that some of blue-eyes is inside him
4-sure
Anyways i think kukui is right we need to wrap things up im probably gonna drop this Because there's alot of stuff that need to be discussed other than the blue eyes thingy here if you want to debate me further about this feel free to do so on my wall or something Because it seems this is not ending anytime soon

 

[SomebodyData]

1. Pretty obvious Bas were involved, considering P Seto also had his Ba removed to summon Ultimate Dragon.
2. No, you can't simply mix canons.
3. ...This entire thread you've been arguing against the idea that a Ka and Ba can be the same- yet now your point is that it possibly can be?
   
   Can't make any promises on continuing the debate as this derailed my revisions for the Puella Magi verse already. Also, I recommend you and Overlord maybe talk out your arguments beforehand, it makes the thread longer when there is 3 different sides to the same topic.

 

[Zencha9]

1-for the 3rd time that's not Ba the thing that came out from kisara and P seto's bodied is not Ba corpses don't have life force energy nor will/Ba. Seto would've died if his Ba was sucked out while he was in that state
So do you have any proof that BAs were used during the fusion?
2-i didn't mix canons i just used the manga Because it explained it more in depth than the anime
3- i specifically said that Ka and Ba arent the same concept sure in blue-eyes's case they are linked it's been said multiple times and i never denied them being linked im against the idea that they are the same thing/concept even for blue-eyes's case Because it wouldn't make any sense

You should probably finish the revisions you are planning to make Because this probably wont end anytime soon

 

[Overlord775]

Overlord

Then who are you trying to scale Stardust to, just Neos? Seems different then what I thought I read earlier.

Neos and Dark Magician

In-game mechanics, yeah, he could have summoned Quasar through any synchros (for example, Junk Warrior, Jet Warrior, and Formula Synchron). If you mean Quasar is the explicit merging of the Signer Dragons in terms of power, then no.

Considering Quazar is called the crystallization of Team 5Ds wish to save the future, that is the only way Yusei could ever summon Quazar

(those requirements you are listing are those for the IRL version, which is very much not canon)

You don't think Delta Accel Synchro Summoning, which in this case caused a star to go supernova, isn't stronger than regular version, which even with the Old Ener-D coming from synchro summoning throughout the city, was only 7-C?

considering how the Zero Reverse event was made by the prototype reactor which was intentionally made blow up and none of the strong Synchro monsters or Duelists (it occuring 17 years ago means most of the characters of the serie were infants to kids] were active at the time, it very much makes sense it would be much weaker

It's relevant because he has Roman's arm in a separate container at that point in the series. It's with him, just not on him.

that goes against your point, as the sign would be even further away from the arena, AKA the dragon shouldn't have it's head according to your argument

Rex refers to the actions of the signers as the actions of the Crimson Dragon when talking about how the Earthbounds were sealed (11:20). Sorry, going to have to watch some episodes at a time, so this isn't it atm, just some supporting evidence for now.

Rex litterally doesn't say that

the Earthbound Immortals weren't sealed by the signers, but the Crimson Dragon itself

also the episode compared the signs of the dragon as being the same as thse of the dark signers, which we know as a fact aren't the embodiment of the Earthbound Immortal, so you disproved your own argument



anyway, if you have other stuff do to we can just wait, though your point about us having three sides of the argument makes no sense, as i and Zecha are each talking of separate aspects of the same argument

 

[SomebodyData]

Zencha

1. It's clearly their ba- not the full thing obviously, but to say otherwise will literally describing it as ba is ridiculous. Why are you assuming they'll die? Most kas are powered by Ba- they never killed anyone when a ka is defeated.
   The proof? The entire arc was set up the idea that ba is needed to summon kas, the fact that it has the same description as ba (Unlike Ener-D, which you believe is also Ba),
2. That's literally mixing canons.
3. So you're essentially admitting you were just arguing based on a technicality?

I mean, sure I can go ahead and finish the PMM stuffs- this thread would fall into indefinite hiatus in the process.

Overlord

1. Where does Dark Magician fall into this?
2. No, those requirements are in the anime ver. too. Though it should be mentioned Cosmic Blazar is the one brought upon by Top Clear Mind, not Over Top Clear Mind.
3. None of the strong synchros- except the Signer Dragons, which is what the scaling is talking about. Heck, even in the bad future it's only 7-B.
4. "It's with him, just not on him."
5. Think you missed the point there- he calls them the actions of the Crimson Dragon, even though we know it was the signers (I meant, look at Red Nova for example or the entire reasoning for why the Signers exact).
   He called them similar in that they also have signs, not that the signs themselves are embodiments.

You should reread Zencha's points, he already disavowed scaling from the Crimson Devil to Stardust, essentially making everything you said is bunk.

 

[Zencha9]

1- it's clearly not tho Ba has never been shown to be like this
Ba is life energy if it gets depleted you die Karim died Because he depleted his Ba and giving it to shada isis died Because her Ka died Sahda is the same as isis
Just look at when common day duelist summoned their monsters (joey tea etc) when their monsters got destroyed they lost LP equal to the damage taken if they lose all LP you know what happens (about the ener-d things it works literally the same as the machines that were using spirit energy in GX it even has the same rainbow color)
2-fine i'll drop it but my point stands still
3-i thought the whole time that you were aware of that Because i could have sworn that i already said that they are linked

Alao i just remembered that crow wasn't suppused to be a main character he was supposed to be a dark sginer that could explain the inconsistencies
DAMN YOU BLACKWINGS

 

[Overlord775]

Overlord

1. Where does Dark Magician fall into this?

should be comparable to the ace monsters of the other two protags

1. No, those requirements are in the anime ver. too. Though it should be mentioned Cosmic Blazar is the one brought upon by Top Clear Mind, not Over Top Clear Mind.

nope, the anime never states those requirements

also, why are you mentioning Blazar ?

1. None of the strong synchros- except the Signer Dragons, which is what the scaling is talking about. Heck, even in the bad future it's only 7-B.

The Signer Dragon weren't active, they lacked the Signers and weren't in use.

seems you forgot how Ener-D is the far future completly destroyed Humanity, so far higher than 7-B

anyway, Ener-D is what is used to make monsters physical, aka it's capable of making the body of the clearly High 4-C Quasar

also, Top Clear Mind uses Ener-D to Acell Synchro

1. "It's with him, just not on him."

litterally the same thing, it would waaaay too far from the arena.

1. Think you missed the point there- he calls them the actions of the Crimson Dragon, even though we know it was the signers (I meant, look at Red Nova for example or the entire reasoning for why the Signers exact).
   He called them similar in that they also have signs, not that the signs themselves are embodiments.

Except we are litterally shown a flashback to when that happened and the signers are nowhere to ne found. it's the dragon themselves thatt did it

also, Crimson Nova is a complete different matter from the Earthbound Immortals, as he came 5 thousands years before them

You should reread Zencha's points, he already disavowed scaling from the Crimson Devil to Stardust, essentially making everything you said is bunk.

i don't really care of what he says, i'm the OP of the thread, so you have to disprove my points to me first and foremost

 

[SomebodyData]

Zencha

1. You contradicted yourself there a bit, no? When Joey's monster gets destroyed- he takes damage sure- but he doesn't die. So even with that, not all his ba is gone.
2. (Moving 3 to 2 now) Damn, if you agreed for a while now then yeah- that part was entirely pointless haha.

Unfortunately, we can't really argue intent with Crow. It would be nice if we could ignore him- but as it stands its a point here.
Overlord

1. Where does "should be" come from?
2. No, it's there. Cosmic Blazar comes from Top Clear Mind- so that would be the appropriate comparison since Antimony used Top Clear Mind and not Over Top Clear Mind.
3. I have many issues with this point:
   1. If them lacking signers affects the power of the Signer Dragons- then Paradox shouldn't have the full power of Stardust Dragon anyways. You're contradicting yourself here.
   2. Future Ener-D destroyed Neo-Domino City, it was the Meklords that destroyed humanity. We already went over this a couple of thread pages ago.
   3. Top Clear Mind is a state of being of the user, Ener-D isn't used for the user to enter that state.
4. He was watching from the top of the stadium- he's not "too far away". He's there.
5. The point with Crimson Nova was showing that Signers are the ones that seal- your argument previously was that most of the signer dragons + Crimson Dragon fought Nova, hence they scale. However, in doing so, you would contradict them sealing Earthbounds since they needed a Signer before. You can't have it both ways.
6. Even if you don't care what Zencha says- you should pay attention since A- If I conceded you would have to debate him and B- he's trying to at least make the stats accurate even if you or I disagree with him.

 

[Overlord775]

Overlord

1. Where does "should be" come from?

There's no reason for one of the Ace Monster to not be comparable when the duelists are threated as equals and the two other Aces have litterally been shown as comparable

also, the combined attack of the three was needed to defeat Malefic Truth Dragon

1. No, it's there. Cosmic Blazar comes from Top Clear Mind- so that would be the appropriate comparison since Antimony used Top Clear Mind and not Over Top Clear Mind.

Don't use outside sources as evidence, especially when themselves don't give no proof for their statements.

There is litterally no proof that Quasar has the same requirements as the IRL version

1. I have many issues with this point:
   1. If them lacking signers affects the power of the Signer Dragons- then Paradox shouldn't have the full power of Stardust Dragon anyways. You're contradicting yourself here.

Paradox stole Stardust Dragon after it has activated, though i guess "awokened" would fit more what i mean.

Future Ener-D destroyed Neo-Domino City, it was the Meklords that destroyed humanity. We already went over this a couple of thread pages ago.

Humans had survived the Mekk-Lord's attack, what truly ended the world is the reactor exploding.

1. Top Clear Mind is a state of being of the user, Ener-D isn't used for the user to enter that state.

Clear Mind/Acell Synchro is said to work off Ener-D (7:03)

1. He was watching from the top of the stadium- he's not "too far away". He's there.

AGAIN, he was watching from REMOTE survailance cameras.

hell, we litterally see that the dome ansd the skyscraper are in different parts of the city

1. The point with Crimson Nova was showing that Signers are the ones that seal- your argument previously was that most of the signer dragons + Crimson Dragon fought Nova, hence they scale. However, in doing so, you would contradict them sealing Earthbounds since they needed a Signer before. You can't have it both ways.

First off, Legendary Signer =/= Normal Signer, he's much stronger then them

Secondly, the only one who ever menaged to use the Burning Soul [What was used to seal Nova] beside the Legendary Signer is Jack Atlas, so the same methot litterally can't have been used

Third, we are litterally told and shown that it was the dragons to seal the Earthbounsd Immortals, with the Signer not being seen nor mentioned

Fourth, you do realize that Crimson Nova >>> Earthbound Immortals, right ? like it's so powerful that even the dark signers didn't want t have anything to do with it, so that's why the dragons needed the help of the Legendary Signer

and lastly. beside that they also downscale because of the war with the Earthbound Immortals

1. Even if you don't care what Zencha says- you should pay attention since A- If I conceded you would have to debate him and B- he's trying to at least make the stats accurate even if you or I disagree with him.

I already have to deal with your stone walling, i litterally mentally could not handle that

debating with him later is much easier

 

[Zencha9]

1- i didn't say that he would die from just red-eyes getting destroyed once but he would surely die if he dies a 2nd time and mind you red-eyes takes way less Ba than blue eyes who is considered equal to the gods
2- it in't a yugioh thread without the deep confusion
Also there other ways to scale the sginer dragons like i said zushin is one of them

 

[SomebodyData]

Overlord

1. You have to prove it first, before assuming it as fact.
   You're going to scale based on the card duels, again? Didn't you already concede that a long time ago?
2. That's different from the IRL version... The requirements are the bare minimum for Delta Accel Synchro Summoning. In the anime, they even consider the levels upon synchro summoning Quasar. If it was really like how you describe it, Quasar would be impossible to summon (As they had to be all reduced to 1 stars first).
   And again, Cosmic Blazar is the Top Clear Mind equivalent.
3. Even you know that's a stretch. Paradox isn't a Signer and therefore doesn't have the full power of Stardust Dragon. Kinda like how the Red Dragon Archfiends from Fake Jack Atlas were different, even in a regular card duel.
4. The only humans that survived the Meklord genocide were ones who followed Z-One, which was a couple dozen at best. Those then died from the explosion, but others (Like Antimony and the rest of his crew) were outside the range of the explosion, hence why they survived.
5. Maybe the Italian subtitles are different, but in English the Yusei particles just help reveal the "location" for Clear Mind- not powered by it.
6. They're not even in the dome when the comparison is shown. At best, in the same video, the dome is shown right next to the tower.
7. Stronger =/= has sealing. The Legendary Signer is never stated to be the sole Blazing Soul user other than Jack (Especially considering Jack descends from him, so we know the family line at least lasted thousands of years). Also, it is stated in the video you linked about the powers of the signers being passed down each generation. Finally, I thought the Blazing Soul only gave you the power to create a miracle?
   1. It says they were imprisoned, but never directly attributed the dragons to sealing them. Especially since the video just shows them being destroyed by the dragons
   2. In the video you linked, the mark of the dragon is stated to be the literal spirit of the Crimson Dragon. This renders this whole part of the debate pointless as it proves my earlier point about marks not just being marks.
   3. Weren't you the one who pointed out Crimson Nova's battle happened way before the rest? If so, then we already know Signers had to have existed by then, given the Legendary Signer existed far before.
   4. Why does it matter that Crimson Nova is stronger if we're talking about Sealing here. Hax doesn't get resisted by AP, you should know this.
8. My stonewalling?
   I'm debating with both of you right now, I'm not sure you can use that as an excuse. Regardless, that's not how CRTs even work, you can't just debate it later if it's the same thing unless you don't want to revise the profiles.

Zencha

1. But that proves the destruction of a monster =/= the complete destruction of a Ba, that's all I needed to prove. Not to mention, pretty sure Blue-Eyes White Dragon or an equivalent has been destroyed in a Shadow Duel before.
2. Zushin, right, I'll get to watching that episode later. I'm still a bit hesitant of the idea that everyone has it, more so, I don't even remember when it appeared outside a card duel, but I'll take your word on that for the time being.

 

[SomebodyData]

Overlord, if you really think I'm stonewalling, you could always invite staff to particpiate. Ofc, we'll have to make summaries of the arguments.

 

[Zencha9]

1- i didn't say that destroying one' s Ka = complete destruction of a Ba Because alot of people would've died if that was the case im saying that P seto would've died if the thing that came out of his body was his Ba HisgBa getting destroyed twice would've killed him right off the bat especially since blue eyes is compareable to gods who take a massive amount of Ba
2- he did only appear in the duel
The thing is that yusei needed to go all out and accel synchro shooting star in order to stand a chance

 

[SomebodyData]

1. Didn't all 3 of the Gods get destroyed and Atem still didn't die? Since White Dragon = the Gods, then being destroyed twice and surviving makes sense.
2. I mean, card mechanics alone make this an issue. It doesn't also help that it is entirely based on the card effects of the monster rather than naturally having any AP.

 

[Zencha9]

1-yeah but atem isn't really connected to the gods
My point is that if blue-eyes is completely one with the user's Ba then the user definlty won't survive blue-eyes getting destroyed once let alone 2 times
2- i mean he wasn't really talking about the power of the card he was refering to the monsters themself as shown by the visuals if he was talking about card effects then the god cards would've shown not the actual monsters

 

[SomebodyData]

1. I would argue that Yami is more connected to the Gods than P Seto is to the White Dragon at that point at least.
   When the White Dragon (Ka) gets destroyed, is it permanently gone? I would expect the same treatment with the Ba if they were one and the same. Not to mention, I'm not saying P Seto's Ba and Ka are the same here.
2. The holograms already existed back in DM, so the visuals make sense, as that would be what people remembered them by. (Not to mention, the rest of the world hasn't actually seen the God cards up close).

 

[Zencha9]

1-eh not really at least not during the event of season 5 you could make a case for DSOD tho
By meaning gone you mean dead? Not really but P seto would take a big amount of damage coprared to normal Ba users blue-eyes won't really die permanently he'll either go to the tablet or the afterlife
2-i seriously doubt that the god cards the same cards that are feared and respected by all duelist in the world still have their effects b unknown
Also tayo was talking about power so he had to have some knowledge about the god cards's power

 

[SomebodyData]

1. I think in Season 5, considering Kaiba's massive obsession with Blue-Eyes doesn't exist yet and only controlled it for a few hours at most, would be a much bigger case than DSOD.
2. Their effects being unknown to the general populace was a plot point back in the Marik arc- which was where the public were mostly exposed to the God cards.

 

[Zencha9]

1- i Actually lost track of what or why we are debating about this lmao
2-true but i meant that in the context of GX/5D's

 

[SomebodyData]

1. I think somewhere along the way, the Exodia Ba and Ka debate just spilled over here somehow.
2. How would they get information about the God cards in GX / 5D's that isn't revealed in DM? (Also, if they know the effects of the card, wouldn't that just still prove that they feared the cards because of the game mechanics?)

 

[Zencha9]

1-so does this matter anymore?
2-it is said that they are feared Because of their power not effect

 

[SomebodyData]

Nope lol
When it comes to the card game, their power is connected to their effect. Not to mention, the public can't sense its power. It's literally impossible for them to be talking about that.

 

[Zencha9]

aaaaaaaaaaaa
Well the god card's power could be felt iirc it doesn't matter if you're connected to the spirits or not Because i remember normal people sensing and fearing the gods

 

[SomebodyData]

I'm not sure about that, but even if we assume that's true, most people weren't anywhere near the God cards. Not to mention, no one is exactly terrified of the spirit of Zushin, as they don't even know he has a spirit.

 

[Zencha9]

gods were scaring people by their power but the other spirits don't need to scare people nor realse their power in order to be comprable to the gods (like diabound and Dark magician)
also an example is when jack summons red dragon archfiend he doesn't always relase his energy but when he fought thor he relased his power and was going to destroys the place they were in
which reminds me yeah we can also scale the sginer dragons to the nordic gods

 

[SomebodyData]

I don't remember the God Cards doing that to most people. I don't even really remember when the God Cards were used in public, other than Slifer, who appeared as just a regular duel monster in that fight.

Diabound was in season 5 and Dark Magician isn't known by the common populace to have actual power other than for the card game.