Yu-gi-oh! Anime Upgrades

[Zencha9]

normal monsters meaning signer dragons/earthbounds etc?

 

[Overlord775]

ye, also people from Duel Monsters and gx because of the BBT scaling

 

[Zencha9]

umm they would scale to them reagrdless because zushin exists
diabound is comparable to the gods dark magician scales above diabound before diabound evloves even further
neos scales to dark magician
stardust scales above neos

 

[SomebodyData]

1. He wasn't needed in most of those duels.
2. You can make that argument if you want but then I could just point out that during the fight with Crimson Nova, the Crimson Dragon didn't have the heart (Sixth mark) as shown by the lack of the six dragon either.
3. Ba is the user's spirit.
4. Blue-Eyes was Kisara, so yes.
5. I'm not sure how to determine worthiness.

 

[Zencha9]

worthiness in yugioh would require a strong will/spirit or soul

 

[SomebodyData]

I mean, yeah but I dunno how to determine it quantitively.

 

[Overlord775]

1. He wasn't needed in most of those duels.

define "not needed"

1. You can make that argument if you want but then I could just point out that during the fight with Crimson Nova, the Crimson Dragon didn't have the heart (Sixth mark) as shown by the lack of the six dragon either.

all Marks come from the Crimson Dragon and were taken back by it at the end of the serie, so that doesn't matter

also, Lifestream Dragon was present during the fight against the Earthbound Immortals as shown in Episode 30

1. Ba is the user's spirit.

what's Ba doesn't matter, what matter is the Ka being a different entity

1. Blue-Eyes was Kisara, so yes.

Kisara wasn't Blue-Eyes, it was her Ka, which she passed dow to Seito

BTW, we have another flashback of the war against the Earthbound



which tells us that the dragon sacrificed themselves to imbue their power in the Marks, so they must have had survived the fight against Red Nova.

also, Ancient Fairy Dragon became the ruler of the Spirit World after being sealed with the Earthbound Immortals, showing that the dragons are indeed Duel Spirits

 

[Zencha9]

wait i didn't notice that, but yeah at first kiara wasn't blue-eyes
blue-eyes was her KA

 

[SomebodyData]

1. Well Yusei already had Shooting Star by then no?
2. Not by the time they fought the Crimson Devil, however.
   ^Same
3. In Kisara's case, her Ba and Ka were treated the same (Anime version), unlike, for example, Shimon or Atem.
4. Interesting to note here that your flashback shows that Black-Winged Dragon is not there, it proves that at best, the Crimson Dragon was only composed of five marks when he fought the Crimson Devil, which by your scaling wouldn't be enough to scale.
5. Also looking back at ep 112, the actual battle between the two lacks the Signer Dragons entirely.
   
   EDIT: They sacrificed themselves? And only afterwards did Ancient Fairy Dragon become rulers of the spirits? Isn't that proving what I said?

 

[Zencha9]

the links you posted are broken
also no her ka and ba are not the same where did you get that from ?

 

[Overlord775]

1. Well Yusei already had Shooting Star by then no?

he also had Shooting Star during the fight against the Norse, but he used Majestic Dragon as his main strategy and Shooting as backup

1. Not by the time they fought the Crimson Devil, however.
   ^Same

doesn't really prove anything as the nearest showing of Life Stream is 5 thousand years after that fight

1. In Kisara's case, her Ba and Ka were treated the same (Anime version), unlike, for example, Shimon or Atem.

mind showing me proof of that ?

1. Interesting to note here that your flashback shows that Black-Winged Dragon is not there, it proves that at best, the Crimson Dragon was only composed of five marks when he fought the Crimson Devil, which by your scaling wouldn't be enough to scale.

the Crimson Dragon is not composed of the Marks, he's far above them, they are just the method people use to summon it and channel it's power

1. Also looking back at ep 112, the actual battle between the two lacks the Signer Dragons entirely.
   
   EDIT: They sacrificed themselves? And only afterwards did Ancient Fairy Dragon become rulers of the spirits? Isn't that proving what I said?

Considering the battle against Red Nova happened 10 thousand years in past, while that against the Earthbound happened only 5 thousads back in the timeline, Fairy Dragon and life Stream could have just not have been part of the squad yet and the signer dragons 100% survived the fight against Nova [or at least everybody minus Blackwinged who is absent in the episode 30 flashack]

also, sacrifice happeed after the Earthound Immortal's sealing

and duel spirits aren't dead things

 

[SomebodyData]

Overlord

1. He didn't really have a choice there, you can't use Majestic Dragon to bring out a Synchro Tuner monster.
2. Yeah, remember I'm arguing BBT Yusei doesn't scale via Stardust scaling to Crimson Dragon in the Crimson Nova fight? If Crimson Dragon doesn't have all 6, you can't prove that was full power Crimson Dragon there.
3. That's the entire point of the Stone Tablets, they hold the Ka that is summoned and maintained by the user's Ba. Kisara is explicitly stated to not need the stone tablet because the Blue-Eyes is her spirit/Ba.
4. The marks/dragons represent the body of the Crimson Dragon, if one is missing then it isn't the full power of the Crimson Dragon. In the flashback, a dragon is shown to not be there (and we also know that one mark/dragon disappears) so it really isn't full power Crimson Dragon.
5. Thing is, duel spirits can always be brought back. Look at Exodia for example, or more fittingly, Life Stream Dragon. And again, the actual battle lacked the signer dragons entirely according to ep 112.

Zencha

That's the entire point of the Stone Tablets, they hold the Ka that is summoned and maintained by the user's Ba. Kisara is explicitly stated to not need the stone tablet because the Blue-Eyes is her spirit/Ba.

 

[Zencha9]

KA is a spirit

 

[Overlord775]

1. Majestic Dragon only and only ever shows up when he's necessary, so that argument has no basis
2. Just because there are only 5 dragons it doesn't mean the dragon doesn't have the mark, as he litterally just handed the 6th mark to Leo
3. Where is it stated that Blue Eyes is her Ba ?
4. Nothing points at that being the case
5. When was Exodia killed ? also Life Stream ever died as far as we know, all we knnow is that it for some reason was sealed and became Power Tool Dragon. Also, if they has died to Crimson Devil it wuld have been stated to any degree, but nothing is ever stated about it, so thinking they died because just they aren't present in the Burning Soul shot is grasping at straws, and explaning them appering 5 thousand years later because of a once again never evenn hinted ressurection is EVEN MORE SO

 

[SomebodyData]

Zencha

Specifically, a duel spirit, which is powered by the Ba (User's Spirit). The Kas themselves exist within the Stone Tablets- this isn't the case with Kisara as they're one and the same.

Overlord

1. I guess? That just means Shooting Star makes Majestic Star unnecessary, which just proves my point still.
2. Well, it also helps that the Crimson Dragon is never seen with his heart in the flashbacks anyways. We also know that the Crimson Dragon's appearance is affected by the marks present, as it previously lacked many parts when the respective signers weren't there.
3. Her entire gimmick is that her soul is the Blue-Eyes White Dragon.
4. ^Point 2.
5. Against the fight with Zorc, over thousands of years before the card game.
6. It doesn't really matter why it's gone, what matters is that it is gone.

 

[Zencha9]

dude they refer to her spirit (blue-eyes) and BA differently

the reason why aknadin wanted to kill kisara is because he wanted to seal her spirit (blue-eyes) in the tablet and make seto the king of egypt because blue-eyes is as strong as the gods

 

[Zencha9]

also i'm not saying that blue-eyes and kisara are spreate throughout all of yugioh i'm saying that at the start they were different entities
also @SomebodyData the link regarding your 2nd point is broken

 

[Overlord775]

1. I guess? That just means Shooting Star makes Majestic Star unnecessary, which just proves my point still.

i mean, Shooting also derives it's power from Crimson, so it doesn't really matter

1. Well, it also helps that the Crimson Dragon is never seen with his heart in the flashbacks anyways. We also know that the Crimson Dragon's appearance is affected by the marks present, as it previously lacked many parts when the respective signers weren't there.

it's not seen with the Heart period, even at the end of the serie, so moot point

also image broke

1. Against the fight with Zorc, over thousands of years before the card game.

considering Exodia is immortal like Zorc, he just got better

1. It doesn't really matter why it's gone, what matters is that it is gone.

Sealing =/= death

 

[SomebodyData]

Zencha

Can't screenshot on Crunchyroll for some reason, so I'll have to link the videos with the time. Shada scans Kisara and finds that the White Dragon is her Heka (Note how it's not called Ka) (12:15 onwards). The guy with the name I can't spell also tells Kaiba that the White Dragon is her Ba. (6:20) Your scans come after the White Dragon was separated from Kisara thru the use of the Millennium Items.

Overlord

Pretty sure Shooting gets its power from Accel Synchro Summoning, not the Crimson Dragon.

This work? I would assume the heart would be inside the Crimson Dragon?

No, he died. Also, aren't all duel spirits inherently immortal (Longevity type specifically) / Zorc also died?

Again, it doesn't matter, my point was just that it wasn't there at the time. It could be dead, sealed, or busy babysitting Baby Dragon; it doesn't detract from the point.

 

[Zencha9]

Can't screenshot on Crunchyroll for some reason, so I'll have to link the videos with the time. Shada scans Kisara and finds that the White Dragon is her Heka (Note how it's not called Ka) (12:15 onwards). The guy with the name I can't spell also tells Kaiba that the White Dragon is her Ba. (6:20) Your scans come after the White Dragon was separated from Kisara thru the use of the Millennium Items.

heka and BA are the same
the next thing seto says is that her KA and BA are linked . that's how KAs work they are linked to your BA and when they die you lose BA if you lose all of your BA you die

 

[Zencha9]

also just noticed that aknadin said "osoraku " meaning maybe
when he was refering to "the white dragon"

 

[Overlord775]

Overlord

Pretty sure Shooting gets its power from Accel Synchro Summoning, not the Crimson Dragon.

i mean, accell syncro is more of a way to channel/use power

This work? I would assume the heart would be inside the Crimson Dragon?

considerinng this is the first ever appearence of Crimson, i'd think that's more for scene effect rather than something to speculate on

also, then why would you assume the heart isn't also inside Crimson Dragon in the flashbacks ?

No, he died. Also, aren't all duel spirits inherently immortal (Longevity type specifically) / Zorc also died?

the actual immortal type, as Exodia was explicidly slown to regenerate from wounds, with even being cut in half having implied to not work with enough energy

also, at that point it was already sealed inside the 5 stones, so those would have had to be destroyed for it to fully die

Again, it doesn't matter, my point was just that it wasn't there at the time. It could be dead, sealed, or busy babysitting Baby Dragon; it doesn't detract from the point.

your point is that he died, which he didn't clearly

 

[SomebodyData]

Zencha

Ye, but it doesn't detract from Aknadin just outright calling her White Dragon the Ba.

Overlord

Regardless, the Shooting Star Dragon doesn't get its power from the Crimson Dragon.

Scene effects wouldn't have to remove body parts from the Crimson Dragon. Because there is no correlating Signer Dragon in said flashbacks.

I am not aware of any of the duel monsters having immortality type 8 based on the stone tablets, though if they did, it'd just prove my point about the duel monsters being able to come back.

Again, it doesn't matter. My point just needs the monster to be absent and that's it, I argued it was probably dead before but all I need is for it to be absent for the actual point.

 

[Zencha9]

Ye, but it doesn't detract from Aknadin just outright calling her White Dragon the Ba.

it's an assumption what else can i say

 

[Overlord775]

Zencha

Ye, but it doesn't detract from Aknadin just outright calling her White Dragon the Ba.

He also repetedly calls it a Ka

Regardless, the Shooting Star Dragon doesn't get its power from the Crimson Dragon.

Yusei calls on the power of the Crimson to accell summon tho

Scene effects wouldn't have to remove body parts from the Crimson Dragon. Because there is no correlating Signer Dragon in said flashbacks.

no body part of the dragon is absent

The Mark come FROM the Crimson Dragon and are litterally stated to be just the way he's summoned

I am not aware of any of the duel monsters having immortality type 8 based on the stone tablets, though if they did, it'd just prove my point about the duel monsters being able to come back.

The signer dragon don't have stone tablets tho

like, shooting star does, but i don't think there's any proof that the others do too

Again, it doesn't matter. My point just needs the monster to be absent and that's it, I argued it was probably dead before but all I need is for it to be absent for the actual point.

the dragon being absent wouldn't make Crimson not have a sign

 

[Zencha9]

in case i wasn't clear enough aknadin says "the white dragon is maybe her BA" he assumes that blue eyes is her BA and he wasn't sure that's why he said "osoraku " he's not saying it as a fact

here's another translation that is more accurate
if you don't trust me feel free to call anyone that knows something about the japanese language

 

[SomebodyData]

Zencha

Aknadin is a pretty reliable source here (And given we are shown the process of the White Dragon being split from her), I think it's safe to say it's the truth of the matter.

Overlord

Yes? I've never denied it also being a Ka- my point is that it's both for her.

So you're saying Yusei can't get to Clear Mind / Accel Synchro Summon without the Crimson Dragon, correct? That's fine with me, but that proves BBT Yusei =/= High 4-C.

In the link I showed, his hands and feet were missing.

If Shooting Star has, then it's rather safe to assume the others do too.

We know the dragons are embodiments of the body parts of the Crimson Dragon, and given we know the heart went missing alongside one of the dragons, it's not hard to put 1 and 1 together.

 

[Zencha9]

Aknadin is a pretty reliable source here (And given we are shown the process of the White Dragon being split from her), I think it's safe to say it's the truth of the matter.

doesn't matter if he's reliable or not because he's speculating and seto corrected him right after
and later mentioned that kiara has her own BA

 

[Overlord775]

So you're saying Yusei can't get to Clear Mind / Accel Synchro Summon without the Crimson Dragon, correct? That's fine with me, but that proves BBT Yusei =/= High 4-C.

you seem to be forgetting that it's Stardust the one that i'm tring to upgrade to High 4-C, not BBT Yusei

In the link I showed, his hands and feet were missing.

you do realize it still has it's head despite goodwin not being need the arena ?

and that if distance doesn't matter, then it's moe so visual effect since both Luna and akiza had their Marks since early childhood ?

If Shooting Star has, then it's rather safe to assume the others do too.

not really

We know the dragons are embodiments of the body parts of the Crimson Dragon, and given we know the heart went missing alongside one of the dragons, it's not hard to put 1 and 1 together.

when was any of that said exactly ?

 

[Zencha9]

also yusei when facing against team taiyo didn't need the crimson dragon to accel synchro and go into clear mind

 

[Overlord775]

bump

 

[Zencha9]

kiara and blue-eyes don't share the same BA necessarily it's like dark magician and atem dark magician can use atem's BA for attacks but Dark magician has his own heka/Ba that he can use without draining atem's BA

 

[SomebodyData]

Sorry, couldn't come on the wiki much this week (Or the next few days).

Overlord
I don't understand, you want to claim regular Stardust = High 4-C but BBT Yusei isn't? Can you explain how that works?

Goodwin was in the arena watching their duel, a little later even revealing he was a "Star Guardian".

Why would Shooting Star have a stone tablet but the other Signer Dragons not?

The heart going missing is the entire sub-plot of the 6th signer, and the signs being the embodiments of the Crimson Dragon seems kind of obvious given they're each one of its limbs.

Zencha

We can assume that, but currently White Dragon = Kisara's Ba is at least suggested by a knowledgable character within the series and we see the Milienium Items were needed to split it from Kisara into a stone tablet.

 

[Zencha9]

We can assume that, but currently White Dragon = Kisara's Ba is at least suggested by a knowledgable character within the series and we see the Milienium Items were needed to split it from Kisara into a stone tablet.

bruh. literally the first unnamed character in the arc gets the exact same treatment as kiara with her KA there's nothing different between blue-eyes and dark spirit of chaos and the rest of the KAs
plus sure akndain is one of the most knowledgable characters but he's still making a random guess that gets corrected (by seto) and contradicted right afterward (seto mentioning that kiara having her own BA)
also the whole context behind the scene is that aknadin never saw anything like the blue-eyes in term of power and that it's rivaling dibaound and the gods
that's why he said that it's maybe her BA is fused with the blue-eyes because of how much energy he has
2- that's the whole reason behind the milienium items and the reason why the shrine of wedju exists

 

[Overlord775]

I don't understand, you want to claim regular Stardust = High 4-C but BBT Yusei isn't? Can you explain how that works?

Stardust > Yusei

Goodwin was in the arena watching their duel, a little later even revealing he was a "Star Guardian".

Goodwin was looking at the fight through cameras, so no he wasn't in the arena

Also, "a bit later" is the day tomorrow that happened

The heart going missing is the entire sub-plot of the 6th signer, and the signs being the embodiments of the Crimson Dragon seems kind of obvious given they're each one of its limbs.

The sub-plot is more thst Leo hinted to be signer but neither he has a mark nor Power Tool Dragon felt like a signer dragon

Also, saying the marks are the crimson dragon just because they are shaped like him is extremelly poor proof

 

[Overlord775]

Why would Shooting Star have a stone tablet but the other Signer Dragons not?

The battle against the Crimson Devil happened 5 thousand years before ancient Egypt and the millenium items' creation, so monster stone tablets just didn't exist yet

 

[Zencha9]

tbh tablets are not really important

 

[SomebodyData]

Overlord

Stardust > Yusei? So where do you get Stardust scales to the other characters in BBT?

Pretty sure he was still in the arena.

I said they're embodiments, which again, they are. It's hard to argue that when they're all needed for the Crimson Dragon to form.

Zencha

I mean we see Kisara's Ba used to summon Blue-Eyes Ult. Dragon, which given you need Blue-Eyes White Dragon to summon, seems pretty hard to argue against. (8:50 forward)

Yeah, the Dark Spirit of Chaos, which was incredibly weak. This contradicts your statement of Aknadin assuming the Ba and Ka are the same just because the White Dragon is powerful. Also, the Dark Spirit of Chaos is unique, as it took over its host and his body in an attempt to grow stronger. (15:10 forward)

But let's assume Kisara's Ba and Ka isn't unique. And? Doesn't detract from my point that they're one and the same for Kisara.

 

[Overlord775]

Stardust > Yusei? So where do you get Stardust scales to the other characters in BBT?

because Neos blocked a blast from it

Pretty sure he was still in the arena.

he wasn't, he was in his skyscraper, watching the duel via remote cameras

also like, his mark wasn't even shown to light up

I said they're embodiments, which again, they are. It's hard to argue that when they're all needed for the Crimson Dragon to form.

when are they are even said to be/do that ?

because as far as i'm aware they are just AND only stated to summon Crimson

 

[Zencha9]

1-that's not BA
2- except that when atem asks about KAs shimon explains that KAs grow stronger with hate so it's the norm bakura and the criminals that seto tortured were also the same
not really seto stated the opposite that she has her own BA while she was alive