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Yu-gi-oh! Anime Upgrades

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GX and Duel Monsters upgrade

So, in the Bonds Beyond Time movie Neos tank a direct hit from Melefic Stardust Dragon, who as a Signer Dragon fought alongside and scales to Crimson Dragon, who is High 4-C

The movie is canon as seen by the fact Yusei had a flashback of Paradox, the main villain of the movie

also just in case someone says, Malefic Stardust has no reason to be weaker than the normal counterpart, as the malefic power only makes him evil and has even the same attack points

Dark Magician should scale too, as the three protagonists are protrayed as equal to each other, so their ace monsters should too, furthermore the combined strenght of the three of them was required to destroy Malefic Truth Dragon. Lastly and less importatly, all three mosters have the same attack power, which while a inconsistent matter shows that they are met to be equals

but that's not all.

In Zexal Yuma, who by episode 15-16 has seen a multitude of Number Cards as swell as galaxy-Eyes Photon dragon, treated classical monsters like Dark Magician and Blue Eyes, as swell gx ones like Neos and Flame Wingman as legendary monsters ad fan boying over them. He also outright shit himself a seeing 3 Blue Eyes out in the field at the same time. Furthermore the user of Numer 12: Crimson Shadow Armor Ninja, who specifically was focused on power through might above all else else, also considered the cards of the dojo as legedary and wanted them, with everything about that dojo being about old cards and Ruko himself playing stuff like Black Luster Soldier.

This whole makes so the old cards shown in episodes 15-16 should be at least comparable to Number Cards, who are High 4-C

In conclusion, Dark Magician, Neos and everybody who scales to them should be High 4-C

Non-god mosters of Duel Monsters are currently featless and in gx the only they have is Thunder giant passivelly creating a storm by being summoned, which mind you is also a feat from the very first season of GX, so it wouldn't an outlier. [especially because of the following upgrade]

God Cards Upgrade

So, for anyone who hasn't seen the Finale of Season 4 of the anime, at the climax point of Athem's Dartz, the latter summoned his strongest monster, the Divine Serpent.


This bad boy had infinite attack points, with Athem referring to it as having "Infinite Strenght" trice

How did our favorite Pharaoh beat this beast ? simple, he activated the special ability of his knights, which allowed him to redirect Crisius' attack into Heremos, who then activate his ability to redirect back the attack at his fellow knight. This created an endless loop, multipling the strenght of the attack to infinity, as he then merged the three knights ito the Knight of Destiny.

The Knight of Destiny is and i quote "Your serpent's strenght may be infinity, but now there's a force beyond infinity."

So yeah, both of them are clearly High 3-A, but what has this to do with the god card ? getting to it.

The great Leviathan, as Dartz's god and who the former spend over 10 thousand years to try revive, should very easilly be vastly above the Divine Serpent, a beast the atlantian menged to summon relativelly easilly [Remember that the Orichalcos has the power to make monsters physical, as swell as the fact that in same season monsters were stated as real entities residing in a parralel world] and that he was only able to bring out thanks to the power of the Orichalcos [which was created by the great Leviathan], specifically with Orichalcos Kyutora and Orichalcos Shunoros. So the great Leviathan scales to the High 3-A.

Lastly, the god cards were the only thing that could stand against the Leviathan and defeat it, with every other monster not menaging to even scratch it and getting one-shotted, so much so that the serpent even initially tried to flee once they were ressurected. Furthermore, their power had been required to revive the great Leviathan. So High 3-A for the anime god cards, the Creator of Light and Zorc.

oh and one last thing since this could very easilly be cosidered an outlier, Obelisk himself as the ability to raise his own attack to Infinity, which further shows that the true power of the god cards is at that level [the reason why they aren't always at infinite power is easilly explainable by them being limited when summoned normally by a normal human (See Ra being limited to the cards tributed to summon it and the life points sacrificed and Slifer being limited by the number of cards the user has), akin to how Exodiaì's power was limited by the fact he was summoned by Ancient grandpa and thus couldn't beat Zorc]

Infinite Speed ?

See, Cridius' attack bounces back and fourth between himself and Heramos an infinite number of time, thus it traveled a infinite distance in finite time.

This should grant them Infinite attack speed and reactions, which would also apply to anyone who scales to them ... probably.
 
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it's BBT scaling fuck me
adding to the BBT canon part one of the directors said that yusei used fusion summoning because he met yugi and jaden
not sure about zexal scaling to Dark magician and such i mean yes they are consider legendary monsters and thus should scale for monster profiles but i'm not sure if zexal happens in the same universe as the rest of the series so i'm not sure if humans with monsters scale to them like jaden&yugi
i would like for high 3-A gods but i'm not sure if infinite energy still qualafies for High 3-A so netural
also netural on speed
 
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I agree with infinity damage/tier 3 you don’t get more blatant unless you bust a universe.

Neutral on speed.

I guess the tier 4 is fine?
Yu-Gi-Oh scaling is all a bit wack in general since it’s a card game anime.
 
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card game anime
triggered
jokes aside yes you can scale card shows if they fight each other or stated to be comparable and such
also spirit energy is still a thing and it's still around from DM to 5D's so you can still scale monsters by spirit energy/BA
 
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But then you might as well just scale by attack points since that is what decides who can fight who.
 
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I guess? (but don’t they have the same attack, it would still be consistent with either.) Eh, still weird but I get it.
 
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Ultimate Blue Eyes is 4500 attack while 3 Blue Eyes are 9000 attack. You’d think they’d be the same, but they aren’t. That’s why we don’t scale by attack- Attack Values are inconsistent and likely Game Mechanics (For the Card game, which canonically exists in the Anime and are constantly playing, in case someone says something.)
 

DarkDragonMedeus

The Sword and Shield of AKM Sama
VS Battles
Sysop
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Are we really using the Infinity attack points thing again? SomebodyData might flip.
 
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Not really, the main arguments for it are the statements of infinite strenght/force (not attack points) and the multipling to infinity
 
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Agreed on High 4-C Dark Magician, the movie is very clearly canon and even if the DM in Zexal wasn't Yugi's, Yugi's should easily be comparable or stronger. Neutral on High 3-A Egyptian Gods. Disagreed with Infinite speed.
 
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I’m not sure we should do that.

I could be wrong, but wasn’t Kibas Blue Eyes shown to have equal to or better feats than the Gods in the anime did? Like fighting Zorc longer?

And I mention that because it would imply the idea that the god cards aren’t inherently superior to everyone just by rank alone.
 
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any one who scales to yugi&dark magician after battle city S3 judai and would get high 4-C
and that includes zorc blue eyes exodia dartz/leviathan
for GX it would be yubel light of destruction gentle Darkness/judai and Darkness
5d's is the same
 
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I’m not sure we should do that.

I could be wrong, but wasn’t Kibas Blue Eyes shown to have equal to or better feats than the Gods in the anime did? Like fighting Zorc longer?

And I mention that because it would imply the idea that the god cards aren’t inherently superior to everyone just by rank alone.
blue eyes is considerd a god and was stated to be equal to the gods multiple times it's the reason why kaiba and aknadin tried to torture kisara and make her kaiba's KA is because she had an insane amount of power comparable to the gods
 
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I do want these things to happen but like, wouldn't that be game mechanics?

Any child could just scratch out the ATK points on a card and replace it with infinity.

BBT Scaling seems good if it's really canon, but then again, them being equal to recent cards are just because attack points right?

idk, but I think at least Obelisk should be H3A due to his special ability, and the others can scale off of that.

Also, what would this make the Sacred Beasts, they are comparable to a degree if I recall, Uria, Hamon, and Raphael?
 
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nope, scratching out the numbers would litterally do nothing, as the monsters are real creatures coming from another dimesion, so modifing the card wouldn't affect them

also, the only time we ever seen cards being changed is when Yuya reality warped Pendulum into existance

the aces being equal to recent cards is not because of attack points, but because of the sheer hype they are given by characters that well know the power of the Number Monsters
 
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Not really, the main arguments for it are the statements of infinite strenght/force (not attack points) and the multipling to infinity
While there are statements, they could be referring to the monster's actual stats in the game it was summoned in. Was the monster real? Yes. But anime duelists make a big deal out of big Attack Points & Life Points & damage all the time. It seems plausible they might refer to high ATK values in gameplay with such gravity as they did.

There's also the issue of you can't multiply finite values into infinity with a finite timeframe, but that's exactly what Yugi did. Math does not work that way. (Unless Infinite Speed, I guess?)

Also also, Leviathan doesn't have any 3-A Feats BESIDES scaling to The Divine Serpent Geh. It's got absorbing the Egyptian Gods, absorbing stars & maybe blotting out the sun, & the Moon Level storm, as well as a lot of clashes with the Dragon forms of The Legendary Knights.
It has several feats lower than infinity. I'd think it's questionable.
Not to mention I'm unsure this is Obelisk using infinite power in the clash, & Atem didn't have his True Name against Leviathan.
What's more is it's stated the God Cards are almost completely powerless when retrieved, which I'm skeptical meshes with having infinite power. (& hurts Leviathan for losing to nearly powerless versions of them after absorbing most of their power way earlier in the arc, & then lots more other power later.)

& before you say Obelisk: When?
Obelisk having Infinite ATK happened, I believe in.... The Pyramid of Light, which is a 4Kids canon movie?

The Gods aside, I'd also question the Legendary Dragons/Knights scaling to Leviathan; When Yugi summoned Knight Timeaus from his Duel Disk & used Multiply on it, Timeaus barely did any damage. & even after destroying Leviathan's physical form, when he came out of Yugi's Duel Disk to attack the spirit form, he was very quickly swatted away, if my memory serves.

I would like to bring up, though that The Egyptian Gods seem to have a sort of... reverse Immersion? Unsure what the ability is called, but if my memory serves, during the anime (Dunno about the manga.) they're shown to kill the people involved in the creation of their cards, until eventually, Pegasus, who had the Milennium Eye, had to go & paint their cards himself.
 
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While there are statements, they could be referring to the monster's actual stats in the game it was summoned in. Was the monster real? Yes. But anime duelists make a big deal out of big Attack Points & Life Points & damage all the time. It seems plausible they might refer to high ATK values in gameplay with such gravity as they did.
In the season monsters where clear and cut stated to be real and come from another dimesion, with the power of Orichalcos being able to summon them even without a duelling disk.

There's also the issue of you can't multiply finite values into infinity with a finite timeframe, but that's exactly what Yugi did. Math does not work that way. (Unless Infinite Speed, I guess?)
it was an infinite loop, so he multiplied the attack by 3 x infinity basically

Also also, Leviathan doesn't have any 3-A Feats BESIDES scaling to The Divine Serpent Geh. It's got absorbing the Egyptian Gods, absorbing stars & maybe blotting out the sun, & the Moon Level storm, as well as a lot of clashes with the Dragon forms of The Legendary Knights.
He also was threatening both the normal world and the dimension of the duel monsters iirc

also, those are more lesser feats than outliers as those feat were either casual or passive.

Also, he fought the legedary dragons in a much weaker state, meanwhile in his revived state he no-selled their attacks and one shot them

& before you say Obelisk: When?
Obelisk having Infinite ATK happened, I believe in.... The Pyramid of Light, which is a 4Kids canon movie?
fair point, tbh i remembered Kaiba using the ability during Battle City too, my bad

The Gods aside, I'd also question the Legendary Dragons/Knights scaling to Leviathan; When Yugi summoned Knight Timeaus from his Duel Disk & used Multiply on it, Timeaus barely did any damage. & even after destroying Leviathan's physical form, when he came out of Yugi's Duel Disk to attack the spirit form, he was very quickly swatted away, if my memory serves.
The Legedary Dragons/Knights wouldn't scale to High 3-A since like you said they got completly obliterated, they would only have the possily infinite speed since they had to react to their attack to bounce it back and forth between them

I would like to bring up, though that The Egyptian Gods seem to have a sort of... reverse Immersion? Unsure what the ability is called, but if my memory serves
mind further elaborating ?
 
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In the season monsters where clear and cut stated to be real and come from another dimesion, with the power of Orichalcos being able to summon them even without a duelling disk.
Yes. I'm very aware of & don't deny that but anime duelists still get very dramatic about high values. Divine Serpent Geh is also featless outside of that duel, AFAIK, & seems to be a different being from Leviathan.
it was an infinite loop, so he multiplied the attack by 3 x infinity basically
No quantity of 2,800 added to 2,800 will equal infinity, except an infinite quantity, which you can't achieve in a finite timeframe without infinite speed. (Also, infinite speed to KO an enemy with infinite AP/Durability?)
That's one of my biggest issues, the math is faulty; Yugi use the monster's abilities in the duel to do said loop, but the math doesn't actually work out.
He also was threatening both the normal world and the dimension of the duel monsters iirc
I'm unsure if we have evidence that the Duel Monsters world is a whole Universe, & I'm not sure we can use evidence from the then-non-existent content of a sequel series.
also, those are more lesser feats than outliers, also he fought the legedary dragons in a much weaker state, while in his revived state he no-sell their attacks and one shot them
Having so many more lesser feats makes the higher feats more suspect. & yes, as I said, post-resurrection Leviathan effortlessly tanked numerous Knight Timeaus clones & even in a weakened spirit form, smacked away Knight Timeaus.
In the distant past, Timeaus was struck in the eye by Dartz's sword charged with lightning (Unclear what this did.) then beam clashed with Leviathan, with Timeaus's beam having the help of an army. Both of them seemingly ended up sealed away/needing to regain their strength as a result of this.
IIRC, at the start of the arc, a Crystal from Leviathan clashes (Using tornados this time, I think?) with Dragon Timeaus & doesn't exactly stomp, despite the God Cards having already been stolen at the time, IIRC.
fair point, tbh i remembered Kaiba using the ability during Battle City too, my bad
If anyone can get Kaiba vs Duel Computer footage, that'd be useful!
...But it may be problematic that after Obelisk & BEUD clash, the system overloads, & there's a bunch of destruction; Thus, even if Obelisk DID achive Infinite ATK in that scene, we may have to count the destruction over it, which is far from infinite.
The Legedary Dragons/Knights wouldn't scale to High 3-A since like you said they got completly obliterated, they would only have the possily infinite speed since they had to react to their attack to bounce it back and forth between them


mind further elaborating ?
My apologies. I typed in a hurry & forgot I needed to finish that part. I edited in what I forgot to say before your post, I swear, & it's right at the end, but for convenience's sake, I'll repost it. (Apologies for my negligence &/or if I seem condescending!)

Quote myself: "I would like to bring up, though that The Egyptian Gods seem to have a sort of... reverse Immersion? Unsure what the ability is called, but if my memory serves, during the anime (Dunno about the manga.) they're shown to kill the people involved in the creation of their cards, until eventually, Pegasus, who had the Milennium Eye, had to go & paint their cards himself."

This is supported by them able to affect the real world even in regular duels, so them having power even as cards being created or before that may have evidence, too.
1 other evidence for it... is also from Pyramid of Light (The aforementioned 4Kids canon movie) since Kaiba's systems get overloaded & damaged AGAIN, but this time by Obelisk attacking with Infinite ATK... in a simulation.

IDK if being able to affect the real world from within a simulation is a 3-A or higher feat or whatever, especially as a result of attacking with infinite ATK (In your simulated world.) & if so, how do we treat damaging the real world? Do we treat it as infinite in the simulation, tier [DESTRUCTION YIELD] or whatever for the real world....
....but good job 4Kids Obelisk.
 
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Yeah im very skeptical on the infinite power stuff, especially when this isnt the first time it was brought up and rejected. Again, has anyone asked SomebodyData to comment here?

He's one of the best users and staff to ask to evaluate when it comes to Yu-Gi-Oh!
 
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I recall the attack points being infinity when Yugi fought Marik

But other than that (& Pyramid of Light, & the Duel Computer, which we've yet to check.) Obelisk hasn't done the Infinite ATK thng. So it's 1 instance or 2 instances. & didn't it fail to KO Marik nonetheless? (As well as to destroy Ra, but Divine Hierarchy, right?)
& didn't Obelisk along with Slifer & Ra lose to Zorc, who's best feat was moving the moon via TK? (Not to mention the whole being described as powerless after being retrieved before being used to fight Leviathan; A being with infinite power shouldn't be able to get near 0 power; Infinity is infinity, no matter how much you subtract.)

Maybe it's Infinite ATK via the effect, but not only is it circumstantial, Obelisk lacks feats SHOWING infinite power.
As said, the statements could be referring simply to the ATK values (& ATK & LP & damage are treated as big deals.) so it might not refer to actual power. So that's ambiguous, IMHO, & while I can see the case, it hurts the case for Infinite AP Obelisk that it lacks feats with infinite yield. (& has lost to at least 1 character with arguably finite yields, if we count Zorc.)
 
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Theres also the fact that infinite power in general can tend to be hyperbolic and needs to have some context behind it before we can take it as literal (otherwise Kirby would be riding the 3-A train with Magalor).

And if we dont accept things like Low 2-Cs becoming 2-C with infinite power, or 2-Cs/2-Bs becoming 2-A with infinite power, why would any tier grant 3-A or High 3-A with infinite power?
 
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Yes. I'm very aware of & don't deny that but anime duelists still get very dramatic about high values. Divine Serpent Geh is also featless outside of that duel, AFAIK, & seems to be a different being from Leviathan.
geh only appeared in a duel

also it was created through the power of the Orichalcus, which originates from the great Leviathan

No quantity of 2,800 added to 2,800 will equal infinity, except an infinite quantity, which you can't achieve in a finite timeframe without infinite speed. (Also, infinite speed to KO an enemy with infinite AP/Durability?)
That's one of my biggest issues, the math is faulty; Yugi use the monster's abilities in the duel to do said loop, but the math doesn't actually work out.
(infinite speed to bouce the attack back and forth an attack going infinite speed)

the math tecnically works out as infinite multiplication would equal infinity, it's just that logically speaking it shouldn't have been possible to pull i that timeframe, but you know fiction be fiction

I'm unsure if we have evidence that the Duel Monsters world is a whole Universe, & I'm not sure we can use evidence from the then-non-existent content of a sequel series.
Iirc it was stated to be a parralel dimension, which would maye imply them to e equal in size, though gx does confirm that the duel spirits' world is the same size as the normal one, two sides of the same coin

Having so many more lesser feats makes the higher feats more suspect. & yes, as I said, post-resurrection Leviathan effortlessly tanked numerous Knight Timeaus clones & even in a weakened spirit form, smacked away Knight Timeaus.
ehhhh, not really, it depends on how those feats were made, which in Leviathan's case were very casual

In the distant past, Timeaus was struck in the eye by Dartz's sword charged with lightning (Unclear what this did.) then beam clashed with Leviathan, with Timeaus's beam having the help of an army. Both of them seemingly ended up sealed away/needing to regain their strength as a result of this.
IIRC, at the start of the arc, a Crystal from Leviathan clashes (Using tornados this time, I think?) with Dragon Timeaus & doesn't exactly stomp, despite the God Cards having already been stolen at the time, IIRC.

Back at Atlantis the Leviathan didn't have 10 thousand years worth of souls that Dartz snatched, so it was much weaker

also, tbf, the thing at the start of the arc was just a eye, so we could

If anyone can get Kaiba vs Duel Computer footage, that'd be useful!
...But it may be problematic that after Obelisk & BEUD clash, the system overloads, & there's a bunch of destruction; Thus, even if Obelisk DID achive Infinite ATK in that scene, we may have to count the destruction over it, which is far from infinite.
Here at 15:09

though it's not clear if that's what's happening

It caused no destruction directly tho, the machine exploded because it overloaded

My apologies. I typed in a hurry & forgot I needed to finish that part. I edited in what I forgot to say before your post, I swear, & it's right at the end, but for convenience's sake, I'll repost it. (Apologies for my negligence &/or if I seem condescending!)

Quote myself: "I would like to bring up, though that The Egyptian Gods seem to have a sort of... reverse Immersion? Unsure what the ability is called, but if my memory serves, during the anime (Dunno about the manga.) they're shown to kill the people involved in the creation of their cards, until eventually, Pegasus, who had the Milennium Eye, had to go & paint their cards himself."

This is supported by them able to affect the real world even in regular duels, so them having power even as cards being created or before that may have evidence, too.
1 other evidence for it... is also from Pyramid of Light (The aforementioned 4Kids canon movie) since Kaiba's systems get overloaded & damaged AGAIN, but this time by Obelisk attacking with Infinite ATK... in a simulation.

IDK if being able to affect the real world from within a simulation is a 3-A or higher feat or whatever, especially as a result of attacking with infinite ATK (In your simulated world.) & if so, how do we treat damaging the real world? Do we treat it as infinite in the simulation, tier [DESTRUCTION YIELD] or whatever for the real world....
....but good job 4Kids Obelisk.
i have no idea how to handle this, but isn't Pyramid of Light not-canon ?

But other than that (& Pyramid of Light, & the Duel Computer, which we've yet to check.) Obelisk hasn't done the Infinite ATK thng. So it's 1 instance or 2 instances. & didn't it fail to KO Marik nonetheless? (As well as to destroy Ra, but Divine Hierarchy, right?)
& didn't Obelisk along with Slifer & Ra lose to Zorc, who's best feat was moving the moon via TK? (Not to mention the whole being described as powerless after being retrieved before being used to fight Leviathan; A being with infinite power shouldn't be able to get near 0 power; Infinity is infinity, no matter how much you subtract.)

Maybe it's Infinite ATK via the effect, but not only is it circumstantial, Obelisk lacks feats SHOWING infinite power.
As said, the statements could be referring simply to the ATK values (& ATK & LP & damage are treated as big deals.) so it might not refer to actual power. So that's ambiguous, IMHO, & while I can see the case, it hurts the case for Infinite AP Obelisk that it lacks feats with infinite yield. (& has lost to at least 1 character with arguably finite yields, if we count Zorc.)

Marik used an attack negation spell to stop Obelisk's attack, since even if you have infinite power abilities that don't care how powerfull you are will still work

Zorc's plan was to plundge the universe into darkness, so he's universal by himself, also in the dub he was stated to be the creator of the Shadow realm

also, this is fiction, just because draining infinite power would logically be impossible it doesn't mea we should disregard it, it would be like ignoring every FTL feat in fiction because it would physically impossile irl


@ProfessorKukui4Life

Kirby's are first off-hand statements, second not even as close as explicit as the Knights multipling their attack to infinity or Obelisk's attack becoming infinite

Low 2-C can't become 2-C via infinite amps because the difference between the two tiers isn't infinity, it's immesurable (same applies for 2-C/2-B to 2-A i think, but don't quote me on that)
 
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The point I made still stands. Any "infinite power" claim needs to have actual context backed up with it before we take it as literal instead of a grain of salt. And im not seeing how either of what Obelisk does (which has been very much contested as game mechanics here for several reasons) or the Knights multiplying attacks up to Infinity makes it any better than Magalor being stated to have infinite power.

My second point remains the same too. Infinite Power x any tier is not tier 3, nor do we use it to upgrade people. If anything, infinite power shouldnt be given a tier in the first place beyond limitless stamina. Unless of course, say, 3-A Andriod 17 and 18 is a thing now and we upgrade all of DB pre Super to tier 3.
 
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It wasn’t just stated, it was shown with the attack point box, that is far more literal then just a one off statement. It literally means “infinite damage with a single attack.” So High 3-A.
Same with the Multiplication, it isn’t just a statement, we see it happen.
 
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^^^^^
that alone makes it much more valid than the Kirby stuff

also, the god cards and the geh derive their power from things outside of the game, so it can't be game mechanics

also there's the fact that the mosters battling in duels are actual monsters, so it's not just a card game

My second point remains the same too. Infinite Power x any tier is not tier 3, nor do we use it to upgrade people. If anything, infinite power shouldnt be given a tier in the first place beyond limitless stamina. Unless of course, say, 3-A Andriod 17 and 18 is a thing now and we upgrade all of DB pre Super to tier 3.
We actually do that, see Monica Pinkston and Tart

also Endless Power =/= Infinite Power, the two androids are the clearly estalished as the former, the stuff here is the latter
 
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It wasn’t just stated, it was shown with the attack point box, that is far more literal then just a one off statement. It literally means “infinite damage with a single attack.” So High 3-A.
Same with the Multiplication, it isn’t just a statement, we see it happen.
Which is using card game mechanics as the supporting point for it. Not exactly "far more literal" the way your making it to be. And unlike this, Magalors feats are far far more closer to the idea of Universe level than simple multiplication or what a card game duel reads as, only being denied due to hyperbole being the wall that stops the upgrade.

And again, infinite power not being tiered. Again, are 3-A Android 17 and 18 a thing now for having infinite power?
 
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^^^^^
that alone makes it much more valid than the Kirby stuff
See above.
also, the god cards and the geh derive their power from things outside of the game, so it can't be game mechanics
You cant use in-game duel specifics like point values to help prove your case, and then turn around and use out-of-duel specifics as evidence as well. Choose one or the other.
also there's the fact that the mosters battling in duels are actual monsters
The monsters themselves are real, what happens in the duels themselves are not. Theres a reason why not every monster and their mother get what their holohraphic versions do if im remembering this correctly.
We actually do that, see Monica Pinkston and Tart
Cool, then they should be downgraded too. Infinite power isnt and should never be warranted a tier.
also Endless Power =/= Infinite Power, the two androids are the clearly estalished as the former, the stuff here is the latter
Pretty sure the latter was stated for them as well.
 
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just wanted to say that effects are canon and are considered a power the actual monsters should have
example
in the anime before bakura enters the world of memories he duels seto kaiba in the duel he uses diabound and kills blue-eyes in the duel
flashforward during the events of world of memories bakura uses lightning burst stream (blue eyes's power) against yugi's obelisk to somewhat stalemate him and runs away
 
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Are we sure the effects arent just being made real by outside influences like you'd find in a shadow game, rather than the effects belonging to the monsters?

Also, as pointed out above, isnt Zorc's best feat in the anime summoning forth the moon via TK? He stomped the God Cards.
 
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geh only appeared in a duel

also it was created through the power of the Orichalcus, which originates from the great Leviathan
It was created by Leviathan? Do you mean made real or such just like how Gazelle or Kuriboh would be real in the seal?
(infinite speed to bouce the attack back and forth an attack going infinite speed)

the math tecnically works out as infinite multiplication would equal infinity, it's just that logically speaking it shouldn't have been possible to pull i that timeframe, but you know fiction be fiction
But even assuming infinite multiplication of speed, you probably have to have infinite multiplication of AP for the Knights to overcome Geh's durability, since unless it's a glass cannon, it's durability shouldn't be significantly weaker than its infinite AP.
Wouldn't that would mean scaling the Knights, in spite of us claiming we wouldn't, plus all their feats showing they're weaker?
In any case, if the knights don't scale, I suppose their Infinities (Speeds aside.) probably aren't relevant.
Iirc it was stated to be a parralel dimension, which would maye imply them to e equal in size, though gx does confirm that the duel spirits' world is the same size as the normal one, two sides of the same coin
I think we need scans about the dimension size, & more evidence of the Dimension GX is concerned with is the same the Orichalcos arc was concerned with; GX's dimension & canon didn't exist when Orichalcos aired. IIRC, GX explicitly had 12 Dimensions.
ehhhh, not really, it depends on how those feats were made, which in Leviathan's case were very casual
Distant past Leviathan doing a beam clash & ending up having to slumber & regain strength is casual?
Shards leviathan nearly losing another beam clash against Dragon Timeaus is casual?
Absorbing stars BEFORE it awakens (Implying it needed more energy.) is casual?
Losing to nearly powerless-from-its-own-draining Egyptian Gods is casual?
Back at Atlantis the Leviathan didn't have 10 thousand years worth of souls that Dartz snatched, so it was much weaker

also, tbf, the thing at the start of the arc was just a eye, so we could
The eye thing still had numerous shards, souls & likely the God Cards power as well.
Here at 15:09

though it's not clear if that's what's happening

It caused no destruction directly tho, the machine exploded because it overloaded
But wasn't the overloading BECAUSE of Obelisk & BEUD's clash?
i have no idea how to handle this, but isn't Pyramid of Light not-canon ?
AFAIK, yes, Pyramid of Light indeed is not canon. The Gods killing the artists who were working to get their cards made until Pegasus did it is from the anime, though.

@ProfessorKukui4Life : I don't disagree with you, but monsters are made real by the Orichalcos. Although, finding statements concerning how this realness is achieved may be valuable, if at least to make clear to unfamiliar users how it works. (No offense meant.)
 
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Are we sure the effects arent just being made real by outside influences like you'd find in a shadow game, rather than the effects belonging to the monsters?

Also, as pointed out above, isnt Zorc's best feat in the anime summoning forth the moon via TK? He stomped the God Cards.
it was a shadow game but what's important that it can use it's effect outside the duel thus not really game mechanics
he done the moon thing really casually while getting attacked by the gods and is on the ground iirc
 
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@ProfessorKukui4Life : I don't disagree with you, but monsters are made real by the Orichalcos. Although, finding statements concerning how this realness is achieved may be valuable, if at least to make clear to unfamiliar users how it works. (No offense meant.)
Oh im not suggesting this, I know very well the monsters are real. Im saying that what they do in duels is, outside of obvious specifics, not real.

Its entirely possible for the monsters to be real and only have their effects in duals be fake as well. Hence why, again, not all of the monsters and their mothers get the abilities of what their holographic versions do in duels. Unless this is something thats changed.
 
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it was a shadow game but what's important that it can use it's effect outside the duel thus not really game mechanics
he done the moon thing really casually while getting attacked by the gods and is on the ground iirc
Can you show me the former? Or point it out if the evidence is already linked here? I dont remember that, the opposite if anything. Like the God cards, Blue Eyes & Exodia not using their actual in-game abilities against Zorc as their real selves.

And thats the point. Even though it was casual, moving the moon is a humungous cry away from tier 3 in any way. He'd have gotten stomped by them if infinite power was actually literal.
 
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See above.
No, the monsters summoned ARE the monsters, all card effects they have is the same as the ones the monsters have, litterally nothing points at the monsters gaining stuff when summoned.

BTW, the shadow powers are Zorc's power.

also he has the whole, plunging the universe into shadows and [in Dub] creating the shadow realm, which are much higher than the Moon Feat

You cant use in-game duel specifics like point values to help prove your case, and then turn around and use out-of-duel specifics as evidence as well. Choose one or the other.
I don't even know what you mean by that

The monsters themselves are real, what happens in the duels themselves are not. Theres a reason why not every monster and their mother get what their holohraphic versions do if im remembering this correctly.
All monsters cards that appeared in the anime have their card effects, see Jinzo and Numer 39: Utopia

What you are thinking about is most likely how we don't apply IRL card effects, which is simply because the IRL cards aren't canon

Cool, then they should be downgraded too. Infinite power isnt and should never be warranted a tier.
Or maybe you should consider that you are simply wrong ?

High 3-A is Infinite power, no more or less than that, it has non of the shenigans that 4-D and up have, it simply is

Pretty sure the latter was stated for them as well.
Nope, they were always made out to be Endless Power in contrast to 19 and 20 who have to steal energy
 
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It was created by Leviathan? Do you mean made real or such just like how Gazelle or Kuriboh would be real in the seal?
All the monsters used to summon it were Orichalcom, aka monsters who's power is that of the Leviathan

But even assuming infinite multiplication of speed, you probably have to have infinite multiplication of AP for the Knights to overcome Geh's durability, since unless it's a glass cannon, it's durability shouldn't be significantly weaker than its infinite AP.
Wouldn't that would mean scaling the Knights, in spite of us claiming we wouldn't, plus all their feats showing they're weaker?
In any case, if the knights don't scale, I suppose their Infinities (Speeds aside.) probably aren't relevant.

like i said the knights don't scale, only Knight of Destiny, who is a "force greater than infinity" and thus could kill the infinite power snake [which is dumb, but anime logic goes brrrr]

I think we need scans about the dimension size, & more evidence of the Dimension GX is concerned with is the same the Orichalcos arc was concerned with; GX's dimension & canon didn't exist when Orichalcos aired. IIRC, GX explicitly had 12 Dimensions.
well, i'll have a look to find the episode

also, backwards stuff is still usable if it's just clarification

Distant past Leviathan doing a beam clash & ending up having to slumber & regain strength is casual?
Shards leviathan nearly losing another beam clash against Dragon Timeaus is casual?
Absorbing stars BEFORE it awakens (Implying it needed more energy.) is casual?
Losing to nearly powerless-from-its-own-draining Egyptian Gods is casual?

Distant past Leviathan is weaksouce compared to present Leviathan
Shards Leviathan doesn't have the full power, arguably only that of the monsters he absorbed there and then, so nah
the great Leviathan was never stated to run on stuff like stars or non-souls, so moot point
the Egyptian gods were brought back to full power after being revived

The eye thing still had numerous shards, souls & likely the God Cards power as well.
if it had the power of the gods card then it would have lost it as the eyes was destroyed, so i'd say it didn't have it
also, numerous shards <<<<<<< all the shards

But wasn't the overloading BECAUSE of Obelisk & BEUD's clash?
*because of Obelisk wiping the floor with BEUD

yes, but there's a very large difference between punching a robot and making a robot explode because it can't comprehend your power

AFAIK, yes, Pyramid of Light indeed is not canon. The Gods killing the artists who were working to get their cards made until Pegasus did it is from the anime, though.
ye
Can you show me the former? Or point it out if the evidence is already linked here? I dont remember that, the opposite if anything. Like the God cards, Blue Eyes & Exodia not using their actual in-game abilities against Zorc as their real selves.

They actually did, with like Ra going Phoenix mode and doing a lot of damage to Zorc, though basically all gods and Exodia's abilties are them flexing their divine might unto weaker monsters, so they aren't even as remotly as effective on a superior opponent

also, Blue Eyes litterally has no effects lol
 
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Can you show me the former? Or point it out if the evidence is already linked here? I dont remember that, the opposite if anything. Like the God cards, Blue Eyes & Exodia not using their actual in-game abilities against Zorc as their real selves.

And thats the point. Even though it was casual, moving the moon is a humungous cry away from tier 3 in any way. He'd have gotten stomped by them if infinite power was actually literal.
1- this video shows all of bakura's fights in S5 first he fights seto and kills blue eyes
later we see him using blue eyes's powers against atem in the world of memories
2-i reall didn't want to go into the tier 2 stuff but Zorc after winning against atem in the world of memories said that he was going to destroy all of the world of memories with darkness the world of memories is an alternate reality with it's own space-time continuum when atem killed zorc and reached the end instead of the memory world getting erased because his memories ended there atem was the one getting earased from the memory world and when atem was getting erased he declared priest seto as the next pharaoh that will rule egypt entrusting seto with the future of the world of memories
also the orichalcos contains the world of memories
 
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No, the monsters summoned ARE the monsters, all card effects they have is the same as the ones the monsters have, litterally nothing points at the monsters gaining stuff when summoned.
I know the monsters summoned are THE monsters. What im saying is them becoming real doesnt neccessarily mean the abilities have to be coming from them, they can just be made real due to outside influences like shadow games making the duels real and what not.
BTW, the shadow powers are Zorc's power.
Okay?
also he has the whole, plunging the universe into shadows and [in Dub] creating the shadow realm, which are much higher than the Moon Feat
Uh, for one why is the dub being mentioned here? The dub doesnt matter.
I don't even know what you mean by that
Your using both in-game mechanics and out-of-game mechanic evidences to help prove your case when that's wrong. First your using the point values displaying infinite to try and prove the case of it being literal (when its strictly duel game mechanics) and then after that you argue the gods drawing power from outside the game to help you (when ironically, thats also inconsistent since they wouldnt need to do that if they had literal infinite energy).

Its either you use one or the other.
All monsters cards that appeared in the anime have their card effects, see Jinzo and Numer 39: Utopia
And again, why? if their holographic versions are the only ones who have displayed them, then the real versions shouldnt have them. That said, im going to wait on Somebody to weigh in on this before I go any further on this point.
Or maybe you should consider that you are simply wrong ?

High 3-A is Infinite power, no more or less than that, it has non of the shenigans that 4-D and up have, it simply is.
Yes when destroying an infinite sized universe or realm. Not just infinite power, which is what your using here as the main basis.

Nope, they were always made out to be Endless Power in contrast to 19 and 20 who have to steal energy
Wrong, not according to this. Trunk flat out says, in quotes, "They have an infinite energy supply", followed up by Vegeta outright saying infinite energy.

So no, they were stated to have infinite power and unless we're going to upgrade Pre-Super era Dragon Ball to tier 3 based off this, that helps my case.
 
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I know the monsters summoned are THE monsters. What im saying is them becoming real doesnt neccessarily mean the abilities have to be coming from them, they can just be made real due to outside influences like shadow games making the duels real and what not.
Complete headcanon on your part, there's nothing that even hints of that being the case.

Uh, for one why is the dub being mentioned here? The dub doesnt matter.
Love how you just ignored Zorc enveloping the universe in darkness [which is not dub, only the second is as anyone could tell from how i worded it]

Your using both in-game mechanics and out-of-game mechanic evidences to help prove your case when that's wrong. First your using the point values displaying infinite to try and prove the case of it being literal (when its strictly duel game mechanics) and then after that you argue the gods drawing power from outside the game to help you (when ironically, thats also inconsistent since they wouldnt need to do that if they had literal infinite energy).
There's no "game mechanics" this isn't a goddamn videogame, both out of duel and in-duel are canon

Kaiba said that Obelisk's special ability gives him infinite force, why would he mean that he has infinite strenght only in "game mechanics" ?

And again, why? if their holographic versions are the only ones who have displayed them, then the real versions shouldnt have them. That said, im going to wait on Somebody to weigh in on this before I go any further on this point.
BECAUSE DUELS ARE CANON

Yes when destroying an infinite sized universe or realm. Not just infinite power, which is what your using here as the main basis.

High 3-A: High Universe level​

Characters who demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, or those who can affect an infinite 3-D area or an infinite number of finite or infinite universes when not accounting for any higher dimensions or time, or more generally any realm of comparable size. Large numbers of infinite universes, unless causally closed from one another by a separate spacetime or existence, only count for a higher level of this tier. Being “infinitely” stronger than this level, unless uncountably so, does not qualify for any higher tier.

the defiition of the tier says that infinite power qualifies

Wrong, not according to this. Trunk flat out says, in quotes, "They have an infinite energy supply", followed up by Vegeta outright saying infinite energy.

So no, they were stated to have infinite power and unless we're going to upgrade Pre-Super era Dragon Ball to tier 3 based off this, that helps my case.
AAAAAND that's what i ment, endless power is the exact same as infinite energy, it's just different wording

That very much doesn't apply here, as the infinite strenght and force here are actual infinite power instead of having a never ending supply, as the monsters can use all of it to attack at once
 
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Hm, most of the time from what I remember from the anime, there is correlation to the monsters having effects from their origin. At least there's an explaination correlating to what the monster is

For example, I recall Yugi vs Kaiba Battle City, when Yugi utilized Electromagnetic Turtle. The card's effect basically says "negate the attack", but it's explained in the anime that when Electromagnetic Turtle goes to the graveyard it leaves behind an electrode or something. Another easier example is Magnet Valkyrion, when they do the whole fusion thing with the other Magnet Warriors. The card effect basically says "Magnet Warriors go to graveyard to Special Summon Valkyrion". But it's explained that the Magnet Warriors fuse to make Valkyrion. It could be safe to assume that there is an explaination for everything.


Also, the Egyptian Cards can negate effects from other effects, yet that is nowhere seen on the card effects (aside from Obelisk, but a limited variant I think?)
 
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Complete headcanon on your part, there's nothing that even hints of that being the case.
Besides Shadow Games making duels real? That does not correlate to the abilities coming from the literal monsters.
Love how you just ignored Zorc enveloping the universe in darkness [which is not dub, only the second is as anyone could tell from how i worded it]
You mean creating the shadow realm? If thats dub only, then mentioning it as a feat is irrelevant when it doesnt count. Also, enveloping the universe in darkness (even if its that literal beyond poetic wording) isnt universe level in the slightest.
There's no "game mechanics" this isn't a goddamn videogame, both out of duel and in-duel are canon
Yes, there is. If your using point values to try and help infinite power being legit, your using dueling mechanics. If your using out-of-duel instances to help your case, then drop the former. Either or.
Kaiba said that Obelisk's special ability gives him infinite force, why would he mean that he has infinite strenght only in "game mechanics" ?
Because Obelisk's strength in the duel is infinite ATK points? Why are you making this out to be more than what the scene gives? He had infinite ATK points to duel with, thus Kaiba said infinite force. Not that hard.
BECAUSE DUELS ARE CANON
Yeah no. Duels being canon doesnt mean the abilities being applied to the real counterparts is legit. It just means the abilities of what the holograms use are the canon dueling abilities.

High 3-A: High Universe level​

Characters who demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, or those who can affect an infinite 3-D area or an infinite number of finite or infinite universes when not accounting for any higher dimensions or time, or more generally any realm of comparable size. Large numbers of infinite universes, unless causally closed from one another by a separate spacetime or existence, only count for a higher level of this tier. Being “infinitely” stronger than this level, unless uncountably so, does not qualify for any higher tier.

the defiition of the tier says that infinite power qualifies
On a 3-D scale, which this isnt. And even more so, I highly doubt a single character on this site is High 3-A without first becoming 3-A, which of course isnt the case here for these guys.
AAAAAND that's what i ment, endless power is the exact same as infinite energy, it's just different wording
And thanks for admitting its just endless power for Obelisk as well, so no upgrade here. "Different wording" is a lazy excuse and you know it.
That very much doesn't apply here, as the infinite strenght and force here are actual infinite power instead of having a never ending supply, as the monsters can use all of it to attack at once
Stop ignoring what the scan outright said. "Endless" is never used, it says infinite. Period. Energy = power for obvious reasons, so yes it very much applies here.

Either you admit 3-A Andrioid 17 and 18 or drop tier 3 Obelisk.
 
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But it's pretty likely that the cards are based off the real thing as explained in my thingie above. They aren't just making shit up, I think. The effect of the card would be something like

"Negate the Attack"

While the actual variant would be (as explained)

"Negate the attack via electrode diverting it out of the way"
 
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But it's pretty likely that the cards are based off the real thing as explained in my thingie above. They aren't just making shit up, I think. The effect of the card would be something like

"Negate the Attack"

While the actual variant would be (as explained)

"Negate the attack via electrode diverting it out of the way"
Yeah but this wouldnt be literal in the sense that E.T. would have power null via actually negating it, he would just be diverting the attack elsewhere (at least thats what im getting from your response).
 
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Like, hm, how do I say it

That means that ET has a reason for negating an attack, because its origins likely involve ET actually having that ability when it was a real thing. The cards are based on the real thing, so... yeah

Same should apply for like, Obelisk right? Why would they make something so OP if it didn't reflect its origins. The Egyptian Cards are the most powerful things ever, so they made the cards OP to reflect it. If they WEREN'T basing it off their original selves, then why are they designed with so many overpowered aspects?
 
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Also, the Egyptian Cards can negate effects from other effects, yet that is nowhere seen on the card effects (aside from Obelisk, but a limited variant I think?)
pretty sure that's due to the divine hierarchy
also i'm still not sure on High 3-A but there are statments of zorc saying that he has infinite power (note japanese says mugen=infinite)
also just to note darkness is refering to either destruction or erasure (void or EE) when used
 
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pretty sure that's due to the divine hierarchy
also i'm still not sure on High 3-A but there are statments of zorc saying that he has infinite power (note japanese says mugen=infinite)
also just to note darkness is refering to either destruction or erasure (void or EE) when used
Those statements feel somewhat wonky.

The 2nd one (which is the only one that blatantly says it) says that humans strengthen the darkness, which in turn grants him infinite power. Lets assume for a moment its 100% literal. This seems to only mean that Zorcs power endlessly increases since his power grows when darkness is strengthened, which is strengthened by humans.

It doesnt seem to be outright infinite, or else the darkness he gets his power from wouldnt need to rely on people to empower it further and further.
 
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Those statements feel somewhat wonky.

The 2nd one (which is the only one that blatantly says it) says that humans strengthen the darkness, which in turn grants him infinite power. Lets assume for a moment its 100% literal. This seems to only mean that Zorcs power endlessly increases since his power grows when darkness is strengthened, which is strengthened by humans.

It doesnt seem to be outright infinite or else the darkness he gets his power from wouldnt need to rely on people to empower it further and further.
it's the darkness in human hearts that gives him power also the darkness existed before the creation of the universe
 
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I’m not seeing how it predating people would mean much in this case. Since Zorc is saying that humans empower the darkness, which empowers him because his strength comes from darkness.

If the darknesses power was infinite, that wouldn’t be happening.
 
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i'm not really following are you saying that because people give the darkness power it's not infinite ?
 
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i'm not really following are you saying that because people give the darkness power it's not infinite ?
Pretty much. Why would something supposedly infinite be amped further in power?

The way it’s worded to me it seems more like Zorcs power endlessly grows via darkness being endlessly strengthened by humans.
 
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Besides Shadow Games making duels real? That does not correlate to the abilities coming from the literal monsters.
That's not how Shadow games work in general, Shadow/Penality games are just games where the loser has something terrible happen to them [which most of the time is losing their soul]

Yes, there is. If your using point values to try and help infinite power being legit, your using dueling mechanics. If your using out-of-duel instances to help your case, then drop the former. Either or.
Both are correct tho

Because Obelisk's strength in the duel is infinite ATK points? Why are you making this out to be more than what the scene gives? He had infinite ATK points to duel with, thus Kaiba said infinite force. Not that hard.
Obelisk is an actual god in the setting, you know ?

when characters talk about Obelisk/Ra/Slifer, their power are ment to be taken litterally

Yeah no. Duels being canon doesnt mean the abilities being applied to the real counterparts is legit. It just means the abilities of what the holograms use are the canon dueling abilities.
There's absolutelly no evidence that monsters are modified. They are the same and exact monsters, no more, no less.

aka

Big. Fat. Headcanon. on your part

On a 3-D scale, which this isnt. And even more so, I highly doubt a single character on this site is High 3-A without first becoming 3-A, which of course isnt the case here for these guys.

The gods are 3-D buddy.

also, i already shown you two, Monica and Tart, nothing prevents people from doing the jump beside that infinity multiplier are rare

And thanks for admitting its just endless power for Obelisk as well, so no upgrade here. "Different wording" is a lazy excuse and you know it.

Stop ignoring what the scan outright said. "Endless" is never used, it says infinite. Period. Energy = power for obvious reasons, so yes it very much applies here.

Either you admit 3-A Andrioid 17 and 18 or drop tier 3 Obelisk.
DUDE, are you drunk or something ?

17/18 = Infinite Power Supply

Obelisk = Infinite Power Output

It's not that hard ! One is a battery, the other is a railgun, they aren't even comparable.

Pretty much. Why would something supposedly infinite be amped further in power?
This is fiction, just because it doesn't make logical sense it doesn't mean it's wrong

this is the same serie where there's "A force beyond infinity" after all
 
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El SiD
VS Battles
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I'll leave a response tomorrow, but already need to clarify a few things:

Yes, the cards are modified, even further some cards are just made up. Aside from the PoL monsters, the fusions from the various legend dragon / knight monsters, thousand year dragon, and a whole lot more are modified to fit the card game or just made up.

Tart has other evidence (Mainly also having tier 2 BFR), and so does Monica presumably.

Atk points don't scale, otherwise you'll have Celtic guardian stronger than slifer and ra half the time.
 
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But if cards are modified, why would they give Obelisk infinite force and keep the whole Not Affected by Anything trait even though it's likely game breaking? And the same goes with the Divine Serpent and other legendary like cards

(I guess it doesn't break the game in today's meta, but back then, it likely could)
 
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Yes, the cards are modified, even further some cards are just made up. Aside from the PoL monsters, the fusions from the various legend dragon / knight monsters, thousand year dragon, and a whole lot more are modified to fit the card game or just made up.
You entirely missed the points.

With "By made up" it means card effects that for some reason only the hologram versions of the monsters would have, which is nonsense. About the things ou brough up.

Fusion is threated as just that, the fusion of two mosters, the fusio monster's powesr comes from the sum of the parts, same for the legend dragons which are just fusion

Thousand Dragons is just an older Baby Dragon created by Time Wizard speeding up time.

Cards aren't modified, at worse their effects are just retconned.

The anime has the concept where cards are simply created out of eather because of other cards' effects, such as fusion monsters' cards being created when a fusion is made

Tart has other evidence (Mainly also having tier 2 BFR), and so does Monica presumably.
Tier 2 BFR isn't even remotly proof of High 3-A stats, like not at all

Monica is High 3-A because of infinity statements

Atk points don't scale, otherwise you'll have Celtic guardian stronger than slifer and ra half the time.
Nothing in the thread uses attack point scaling tho [well, except the one for the Dark Magican scaling, but that's just there to show another point]

Infinite strenght is infinite strenght no matter how you slice it, like it's not even stated as Infinite Attack Points, but straight up as Infinite Force

also, god cards at full power would scale to Obelisk's Infinite attack, so you are wrong there too
 
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That's not how Shadow games work in general, Shadow/Penality games are just games where the loser has something terrible happen to them [which most of the time is losing their soul]
Thats the end result of a Shadow Game, like Marik sending Mai and Joey's souls to the shadow realm. Im talking about the very duel in and of itself, and in every single shadow game that I recall, the duels were specifically made real that makes them differentiated from standard hologram duels that dont to the former.
Both are correct tho
No they aren't, you cant have your cake and eat it too. If your going to use evidence that has to do with out-of-duel mechanics and nothing to do with obvious card mechanics like point values, then stick to that, not flip back and forth when its convienent.

You also seemed to forgot about the point that them drawing on power would also kinda debunk Obelisk having infinite strength, since this wouldnt be neccessary if that was actually the case.
Obelisk is an actual god in the setting, you know ?

when characters talk about Obelisk/Ra/Slifer, their power are ment to be taken litterally
You mean a god who not only got stomped by things far far lesser than the tier your suggesting, but also failed as to so much destroy someone who absolutely isnt tier 3 (Aigami)? Sure thing.

If them being gods is all the reasoning there is to this, this isn't exactly concrete.
There's absolutelly no evidence that monsters are modified. They are the same and exact monsters, no more, no less.
Somebody has already commented on this, and will do so more later, but you need more than duels being a canon thing to leap to the idea that the holographic versions abilities apply to the real things.
aka

Big. Fat. Headcanon. on your part



The gods are 3-D buddy.

also, i already shown you two, Monica and Tart, nothing prevents people from doing the jump beside that infinity multiplier are rare
This I will say fair enough to, but I will for sure be making a thread to address this soon enough.

And when actually reading their pages, even Monica and Tart seem to have better cases for them than whats being suggested here for the Gods. Lack of Anti feats and consistent evidence that infinite power isnt hyperbole for them.
DUDE, are you drunk or something ?

17/18 = Infinite Power Supply

Obelisk = Infinite Power Output

It's not that hard ! One is a battery, the other is a railgun, they aren't even comparable.
You know energy is put into output, yes? Especially for DB of all verses where energy manipulating is done as much as breathing.

They have a supply of infinite energy, pointed out 2x, and what's energy? Power. Thus, the androids have infinite power. This isn't that hard to understand. So again, either you admit tier 3 andriods are a thing, thus making everyone from Cell and up tier 3 (especially Cell for literally absorbing all the power of 17 and 18), or tier 3 Gods based off these reasons is bunk.
This is fiction, just because it doesn't make logical sense it doesn't mean it's wrong

this is the same serie where there's "A force beyond infinity" after all
Again, another lazy excuse and you've been here long enough to know this argument isnt a get out of jail free card against an anti-feat.

Not to mention the context of "infinity" can literally just mean endlessly growing, which the latter in this case is a much more reliable option since the darkness gets empowered by humans.
 
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Anyway, im going to wait until Somebody comes tomorrow to see what he has to say more in-depth, but this is my official position in this thread.

High 4-C I agree with, Infinite speed and High 3-A is a no from me.
 
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just wanted to point out that using agami is not really an anti feat
also yes zorc says that humans give the darkness infinite power but he does not say that the darkness is growing infinitely that's an assumption on your part he says that the darkness is already infinite he does not mention anything about growing
 
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Thats the end result of a Shadow Game, like Marik sending Mai and Joey's souls to the shadow realm. Im talking about the very duel in and of itself, and in every single shadow game that I recall, the duels were specifically made real that makes them differentiated from standard hologram duels that dont to the former.
as far as i know, basically no shadow game has mentions of the monsters becoming real, also i very much doubt that monster effects would change

No they aren't, you cant have your cake and eat it too. If your going to use evidence that has to do with out-of-duel mechanics and nothing to do with obvious card mechanics like point values, then stick to that, not flip back and forth when its convienent.
BOTH duels and out of duel is equally as important, saying only one of the two can be used completly misses the point of the show AS A WHOLE, as it's a story about a cardgame and the mystical mysteries revolving around it

You also seemed to forgot about the point that them drawing on power would also kinda debunk Obelisk having infinite strength, since this wouldnt be neccessary if that was actually the case.
That debunks nothing, as that just meas that card Obelisk isn't always at full power

You mean a god who not only got stomped by things far far lesser than the tier your suggesting, but also failed as to so much destroy someone who absolutely isnt tier 3 (Aigami)? Sure thing.

If them being gods is all the reasoning there is to this, this isn't exactly concrete.
You do realize Obelisk hadn't activated the infinite attack ability in his battle against Aigami, right ?
also, the movie isn't canon, as it doesn't even follow the anime continuity, but the manga's

also the only things that ever menaged to defeat Obelisk were other gods

Somebody has already commented on this, and will do so more later, but you need more than duels being a canon thing to leap to the idea that the holographic versions abilities apply to the real things.

Why for the love of god WOULDN'T they be canon ? Like, the monster cards are spirits being summoned into the field

Why for the love of god would they be modified ?

Also like, EVERY goddamn time that a monster effect activates we are given an explanation as to what is going on, as to why they are able to do what they do, WHY would they say that if it was just game mechanics ?

This I will say fair enough to, but I will for sure be making a thread to address this soon enough.

And when actually reading their pages, even Monica and Tart seem to have better cases for them than whats being suggested here for the Gods. Lack of Anti feats and consistent evidence that infinite power isnt hyperbole for them.

Litterally multiplies by infinity and multiple rating of Infinity
Hyperbole

hyperboles
  1. exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
This is very much doesn't fit under hyperble as they aren't exaggerated statements and are ment to be taken litterally

You know energy is put into output, yes? Especially for DB of all verses where energy manipulating is done as much as breathing.

They have a supply of infinite energy, pointed out 2x, and what's energy? Power. Thus, the androids have infinite power. This isn't that hard to understand. So again, either you admit tier 3 andriods are a thing, thus making everyone from Cell and up tier 3 (especially Cell for literally absorbing all the power of 17 and 18), or tier 3 Gods based off these reasons is bunk.
The androids were never shown nor stated to be able to pull on all their energy at once, for all sense and purposes the only good it does for them is limitless stamina

That's all like, pure headcanon on your part on how the androids work. They are just endles barreries, which you can only draw a limited amout of energy from if you attach wires to it.

also, Cell never absorbed all of their power, he just absorbed them and keeps them in his body, which as seen by the fact he litterally spat out 18, they are being used as batteries basically

geh/Obelisk with ability on ACTUALLY proof of infinite power attacks instead of just wild speculation

Again, another lazy excuse and you've been here long enough to know this argument isnt a get out of jail free card against an anti-feat.
That's just how fiction works. Fiction threat infinity as something ou can subtract and add from, you just gotta deal with it.

also against, same serie, "Force beyond infinity" exists
 

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...That's the point. Cards can be created, showing not everything was originally a monster spirit- therefore means Pegasus made-up monsters and by extension their effects.

In Tart's case it's to show it's not hyperbolic / she has precedence, given tier 2 > tier 3.

If you can scale ATK to their AP, you're inevitably getting ATK scaling. Just because you arbitrarily limit it to Obelisk means nothing. The point was that Ra and Slifer can both vary (using the very card effects you believe in) to the point of being weaker than most monsters, hence why its suspect to use ATK and their card effects. Even without LP or cards in your hand- Slifer and Ra have shown actual powers outside a duel, showing they are >>>>>> 99.9999999999% of cards when outside of game mechanics.

How would they scale to Infinite Obelisk? I must have missed that.
 
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SomebodyData

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Hold on, we're scaling Stardust Dragon to the Crimson Dragon?

Also, how is calling the og cards legendary mean that they're High 4-C, as if reputation scales AP?
 
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not sure about the pegasus thingy i mean sure he made the cards but how could he have known about the divine hierarchy and diabound's effect? and draw the god cards exactly how they are from ancient egypt i think this is a big plot hole just like some duelist knowing the attack names of the monsters that were in ancient egypt
not knowlageable on 5d's but shouldn't stardust scale above bruno anyways ?
 

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I wouldn't go as far as saying it's a plot hole- just that not all cards were created with a respective monster spirit in mind.

If I remember correctly, it wasn't Stardust that destroyed the monster that created a black hole. Actually, what card created the black hole again?
 
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...That's the point. Cards can be created, showing not everything was originally a monster spirit- therefore means Pegasus made-up monsters and by extension their effects.
Said cards are created by fusing/modifing spirits togheter, so nothing new is actually created

All monsters are still beings that come from the spirit world, so you litterally can't just make them unless you like reality warp them into existance

In Tart's case it's to show it's not hyperbolic / she has precedence, given tier 2 > tier 3.
That's just hax, just range even at worse

and if we wanna go that route, everybody that can do shadow duels has tier 2 BFR since they can send people to the shadow realm

If you can scale ATK to their AP, you're inevitably getting ATK scaling.
Not how it work, ATK scaling would be scaling Crystal Wing to Blue Eyes because they are both 3000 atk, this is very much different

Just because you arbitrarily limit it to Obelisk means nothing.
It's not the same, it's not attack point scaling, it's litterall just him being stated have infinite force

The point was that Ra and Slifer can both vary (using the very card effects you believe in) to the point of being weaker than most monsters, hence why its suspect to use ATK and their card effects. Even without LP or cards in your hand- Slifer and Ra have shown actual powers outside a duel, showing they are >>>>>> 99.9999999999% of cards when outside of game mechanics.
considering how the god cards are based around tribute, it's more likelyy they are restricted by their summon, otherwise you know they would just go Exodia Obliterate on the opponent

also, take in consideration the fact that god cards can't be destroyed by non-god monsters

How would they scale to Infinite Obelisk? I must have missed that.
Because it would make litterally no sense for them not to when Slifer is considered his equal and Ra his superior

also, Ra has a similar thing with it's Pheonix form which allows him to destroy any monster

Hold on, we're scaling Stardust Dragon to the Crimson Dragon?
yep

like, the Signer Dragons fought alongside him in the war way back when, so they must be comparable

Also, how is calling the og cards legendary mean that they're High 4-C, as if reputation scales AP?
Yuma wouldn't just lose his shit at the Blue Eyes attacking him if they were millions of times weaker than his ace

also, a Number User, who litterally ranted for a good minute about how only power through sheer might matters, wanted the lengendary cards of the dojo
 
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SomebodyData

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In PoL the Sphinx archetype and Blue-Eyes Shining Dragon were explicitly made by Pegasus. In "Yu-Gi-Oh! R", the Wicked God archetype was explicitly made by Pegasus. Even in the og anime, there was an antagonist who used counterfeit cards. Fusions like Thousand-Year Dragon isn't a merger like that tho. The mere fact that it exists alongside Baby Dragon as cards despite being the same spirit shows the cards aren't exact copies of the spirits, same for fusions and their fusion materials.

The Shadow Realm is 4Kids only, at least read the manga / watch the sub before you make a thread regarding them. Also when was the Shadow Realm a 2-A space or something that Obelisk has? The general points were that the infinity statements weren't hyperbole (or game mechanics in this case).

You misunderstand, if ATK scales to AP in this case, there is no reason for it not to scale in every other case.

They're describing his ATK points when that happens.

Cough, cough, maybe it's because Infinite ATK is game mechanics? I don't know if you've realized this, but the cards' effects are different from their actual hierarchy. Anyone who's played the card game can tell you this:
  • Cards: Obelisk > Slifer > Ra
  • Non-Card: Ra > Obelisk > Slifer
Can you link that? Cause canonically throughout the series the Crimson Dragon is far above any individual signer or signer dragon, and the source of some of their power-ups.

...Let me guess, this was in the middle of a duel right?
 

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@Zencha9 correct me if I'm wrong, but that monster was one of the few monsters Yusei couldn't beat- he had to defeat his opponent through other means.
 
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@SomebodyData just checked yes he defated T.G. Halberd Cannon by other means by using shooting star but in the attack animation he tanked shooting star tanked his attack then he got buffed by a card and destroyed T.G. Halberd
either way stardust should scale above them in later seasons
 

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Mind linking it? T.G. has 4000 ATK whereas Shooting Star has 3300 so it seems farfetched unless TG was weakened- though if he got buffed regardless that causes issues.

Why does Stardust scale to his superior form?
 
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In PoL the Sphinx archetype and Blue-Eyes Shining Dragon were explicitly made by Pegasus. In "Yu-Gi-Oh! R", the Wicked God archetype was explicitly made by Pegasus.
Both those movies are non-canon, so they don't matter

also, there's the fact that they would be just summoning other spirits

Even in the og anime, there was an antagonist who used counterfeit cards
Counterfeit cards would be summoning spirits just the same, as seen by the fact that the counterfeit Ra summoned the actual Ra

Fusions like Thousand-Year Dragon isn't a merger like that tho. The mere fact that it exists alongside Baby Dragon as cards despite being the same spirit shows the cards aren't exact copies of the spirits, same for fusions and their fusion materials.
I already explained that one, Thousand-Yeat dragon is just an older version of Baby Dragon brough by Time Wizard sheninigans, also in the anime it's not even a fusion monster

also, you do realize that there can just be multiple version of the same monster, right ? stuff like Baby Dragon is a specie
87

Ngl, you lost all your credibility there. The Shadow Realm is 4Kids only, at least read the manga / watch the sub before you make a thread regarding them. Also when was the Shadow Realm a 2-A space or something that Obelisk has?
tbf, the shadow realm isn't even remotly part of the CTR so i didn't go double check on it

also again, sending people to a 2-A space is range

You misunderstand, if ATK scales to AP in this case, there is no reason for it not to scale in every other case.
Escept that there's no need to, as in these exemples here they correlate atk with power directly

They're describing his ATK points when that happens.
No, they are addresing the power of the monster

Cough, cough, maybe it's because Infinite ATK is game mechanics?
you are trying to force game mechanic on serie where stuff like that isn't a thing at all

Like, i get that attack points are inconsistent, but Jesus you don't have to throw everything out of the window because of it

I don't know if you've realized this, but the cards' effects are different from their actual hierarchy. Anyone who's played the card game can tell you this:
  • Cards: Obelisk > Slifer > Ra
  • Non-Card: Ra > Obelisk > Slifer
IRL cards are very much not canon, like anime Ra has like 20 effects FFS

Can you link that? Cause canonically throughout the series the Crimson Dragon is far above any individual signer or signer dragon, and the source of some of their power-ups.


[btw, by comparable i ment roughtly comparable, not equal]

...Let me guess, this was in the middle of a duel right?
define which of the two thing you are referring about
 
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SomebodyData

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I had to put it in 0.25 speed to read everything but:
  1. Shooting Star Dragon only survived because a card effect from another card made it invulnerable.
  2. Everyone there would have been killed by the black hole including Bruno and T.G., showing T.G. only scales to his own AP.
  3. AP doesn't scale just because one's a bigger threat than the other, even in Dragon Ball where AP is practically god we still don't take it that way, why would YuGiOh?
 
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To quote Kaiba... 'Screw the rules, I have money!'

I haven't taken Yugioh strength seriously ever since I saw the whole higher than infinity BS. I mean the fact that Dartz monster had infinite attack means that there shouldn't have been anything that could have beat it.

If Yugi had somehow sealed the monster away or used a trap to get rid of it, that I would have believed... but beating it by sheer strength is just so PIS that I don't even like mentioning it.
 

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Yu-Gi-Oh R was a manga sequel, but it'd be non-canon to the anime, you're right.

That reminds me that Exodia has one spirit, but in card form represents 5. Regardless the point is that the cards aren't absolute- if they can be faked then their abilities by extension can too.

The point is that the cards aren't 1 to 1, hence why different versions of the same spirit exist.

They are remarking on the ATK though, not Obelisk's AP. Not a single one of those characters legitimately thought Obelisk was High 3-A or could destroy the universe in those sequences.

The power of Obelisk as a card due to his ATK points.

"you are trying to force game mechanic on serie where stuff like that isn't a thing at all"
  1. Pegasus literally made this originally to be a children's card game. He didn't realize the dark magic til later.
  2. In the verse, it is a card game that only a few people actually know entails dark magic.
  3. The majority of duels literally involve the mechanics of the game.
I said non-card not IRL FFS, as even in the verse it is seen that by card effects Obelisk > Ra > Slifer as GX showed.

EDIT: It works, but I don't see where the Signer Dragons scale equal to the CD

Shooting Star vs T.G.
 
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i'll consede to SD's points regarding 5d's since i don't know much about 5d's
if they can be faked then their abilities by extension can too.
mind elaborating on how can they be faked
  1. Pegasus literally made this originally to be a children's card game. He didn't realize the dark magic til later.
so again how did pegasus know about the Divine Hierarchy and diabound's power to copy stuff ? like i said it's just a massive plothole
Obelisk > Ra > Slifer as GX showed
mind elaborating because the ra in gx is a fake one iirc
 
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That reminds me that Exodia has one spirit, but in card form represents 5.
wasn't Exodia's spirit split in 5 tho ?
Regardless the point is that the cards aren't absolute- if they can be faked then their abilities by extension can too.
Has it ever happened that a card had a fake effect ? because otherwise what you are saying is headcanon

The point is that the cards aren't 1 to 1, hence why different versions of the same spirit exist.
How the hell did you even extract that from what i said ? like, there being multiple spirits for the same card doesn't change anything, as they would all have the same powers

They are remarking on the ATK though, not Obelisk's AP. Not a single one of those characters legitimately thought Obelisk was High 3-A or could destroy the universe in those sequences.

considering Kaiba straight up said "Obelisk's force becomes infinite" i am very much sure it's AP related

The power of Obelisk as a card due to his ATK points.
there's litterally, like absolutelly none whatsoever that the actual Obelisk wouldn't also have the ability

"you are trying to force game mechanic on serie where stuff like that isn't a thing at all"
  1. Pegasus literally made this originally to be a children's card game. He didn't realize the dark magic til later.
  2. In the verse, it is a card game that only a few people actually know entails dark magic.
  3. The majority of duels literally involve the mechanics of the game.
1. Monsters are still spirits even if Pegasus didn't realize
2. Doesn't matter
3. Not only the mechanics of the game, but mostly the abilities of the monsters and the spell/trap cards

I said non-card not IRL FFS, even in the verse it is seen that by card effects Obelisk > Ra > Slifer as GX showed.
i thought you ment irl when you said Card

though, the god cards appearing in gx is rather fishy, as they were ealed away with Athem, so i'll need you to prove this point

Broken link


[also by comparable i ment roughtly comparable, not equals]

@NostalgiaTrip

That's not a Plot Induced Stupidity

"PIS, short for "Plot-Induced Stupidity" is a term used to refer to events in a story that contradict a character's normal capabilities for the purpose of the plot. For example, if a generally competent, intelligent villain does something stupid like not killing the hero immediately when he has the chance, and that allows the hero to win, that would be an example of PIS (If the villain was just incompetent in general, it would be CIS, or short for "Character-Induced Stupidity" instead). "

Yugi creating a monster stronger than infinity is just bad writing, something Season 4 didn't have a lack of
 

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@Zencha

Well when you make fake cards, you can make fake abilities. We already know it's possible via the Seeker creating fake Exodia cards for example.

The divine hierarchy doesn't exist in the anime as far as I'm aware, at least not in the same way as the manga. Funnily enough, the anime version of the card does not have the ability to copy other monsters, which I realize I should have brought up first and foremost since it completely debunks card effect = actual monster's abilities.

I meant that by the time GX takes place, everyone thinks Obelisk > Ra > Slifer because of their card effects. Those who faced the cards in the og series know their magical powers is actually ranked Ra > Obelisk > Slifer.

@Overlord

No, his spirit remained intact, it just needed someone's lifeforce to fight.

Well, it's kinda obvious here- I'm not even sure how you're defending it. If you can make fake cards, you can clearly make fake abilities. Give me a printer and even I can do that.

You mean multiple cards for the same spirit? It debunks your notion given how that would entail, for example, that Thousand Year Dragon and Baby Dragon is simultaneously the same spirit, simultaneously a thousand years old and a baby. Hell, just look at the Cyber Dragon line. Ignoring the fact that the technology didn't exist, Cyber End Dragon is the result of 3 cards of the same spirit, something physically impossible- I'd be like having Gogeta, Goku, and Vegeta in the same room.

Clearly talking about ATK points, he literally says it as Obelisk's ATK becomes infinite. It is ridiculous to assume he's actually punching an infinite sized hole into someone or something in a duel.

The actual Obelisk... doesn't have that ability. Have you even seen Season 5? None of them have their card effects.

Bruh they literally have their academies named after the God cards, Yugi's duels with them are legendary in GX.

And did the Signer Dragons defeat Red Nova? Or was he sealed away by another person (not even the signer dragons) who possessed a blazing soul? At least check what actually happened before you use it as evidence.
 
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Well when you make fake cards, you can make fake abilities. We already know it's possible via the Seeker creating fake Exodia cards for example.
but it still did not happen no one modified card effects in the show all they did is make a copy of said cards if people can just modfiy the cards then almost everyone would have an "i win by doing x"type of card
The divine hierarchy doesn't exist in the anime as far as I'm aware, at least not in the same way as the manga. Funnily enough, the anime version of the card does not have the ability to copy other monsters, which I realize I should have brought up first and foremost since it completely debunks card effect = actual monster's abilities.
im talking about the invulnerability to each other the gods still have it
doesn't matter because it did copy blue-eyes's effect during the duel and king bakura used blue-eyes's attack
 

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...So you're arguing that just because cards can be faked, card effects can't? How does that even work? No one does that because it would be immediately obvious they used fake cards- ignoring the fact that counterfeit is already rare.

They're not invulnerable to each other's effects, where did you get that?

...Blue-Eyes isn't an effect monster.
 

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Also thanks to that video, you accidentally downgraded Yusei to only High 4-C with Crimson Dragon 's AP and removed all the other stats, even FTL as he couldn't escape the black hole.
 
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No, his spirit remained intact, it just needed someone's lifeforce to fight.
IDK, i remembered that was the reason he's split in 5 card

Well, it's kinda obvious here- I'm not even sure how you're defending it. If you can make fake cards, you can clearly make fake abilities. Give me a printer and even I can do that.
It's not obvious, fake copies of a card are still essentially the same card and draw the same spirit, litterally having unleggitimate effects is a complete other thing, as they wouldn't have an spirits do draw from and the duelling disk would probably give error or something

unless you have actual PROOF that is a possibility, all that amounts to is headcanon speculation.

You mean multiple cards for the same spirit? It debunks your notion given how that would entail, for example, that Thousand Year Dragon and Baby Dragon is simultaneously the same spirit, simultaneously a thousand years old and a baby. Hell, just look at the Cyber Dragon line. Ignoring the fact that the technology didn't exist, Cyber End Dragon is the result of 3 cards of the same spirit, something physically impossible- I'd be like having Gogeta, Goku, and Vegeta in the same room.

There can be multiple of the same spirit, see Black Magician and his Red counterpart or the Three Blue Eyes White Dragons

Also, was Baby Dragon ever out at the same time as Thousand Dragon ? cuz Joey only runs one copy, so that seems VERY unlikely to me

Cyber Dragon being a machine doesn't matter, as beings in the spirit world can just make machines [cue Lightsworns for exemple]

also, why do you bring up DBZ mechanics ? Fusion works completly differently in Yu-gi-oh and saying that a three way fusion is impossible based on the mechanics of a completly unrelated serie is nonsense

Clearly talking about ATK points, he literally says it as Obelisk's ATK becomes infinite. It is ridiculous to assume he's actually punching an infinite sized hole into someone or something in a duel.
actually, that would be what would happen, but Kaiba's system protects the duelists

this is seen by the fact that when the safety mechanisms were off he was in danger of being extremelly hurt/killed if he was to be attack by Ultimate Blue Eyes

The actual Obelisk... doesn't have that ability. Have you even seen Season 5? None of them have their card effects.
the god cards can have abiltiies not mentioned in their text as established in season 2 when Kaiba was studing Ra

Bruh they literally have their academies named after the God cards, Yugi's duels with them are legendary in GX.
YEEEEEAAH and that has nothing to do with the power of the cards themselves, it's mostly simbolic (Jayden is Slifer because that was Yugi's god card and Chazz is Obelisk because that was Kaiba's god card)

like, if they actually cared about that they wouldn't have put Obelisk as two tiers above Slifer when they mutually killed each other in the semi-final of Battle City
And did the Signer Dragons defeat Red Nova? Or was he sealed away by another person (not even the signer dragons) who possessed a blazing soul? At least check what actually happened before you use it as evidence.
I already knew about that, but they still put a fight against it without being completly splatted before that happened, which means they would scale to an extent to Nova
 
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SomebodyData

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Really? I know in season 5 at least it's shown not to be true, but maybe you got something I don't.

I'm pretty sure that's not true, I think Ra actually got pissed when Marik made counterfeits so Ra killed the users- but let me double-check.

Lightsworns aren't canon to og YuGiOh, so your point is mute there. Also in season 4 we see the spirit world, there are no machines so the Cyber Dragon point is furthered against you. I don't get your response about DB's fusion being different- it was just an analogy about general fusion- how the fusions can't exist alongside the fusees, that's absurd.

When his safety was off the feat was tier 8 / 9, that's nothing compared to high 3-A which would have instantly killed him.

Yeah but no. They eventually covered all the abilities Ra had, and this was only for Ra. Also, that's for their cards. The actual monsters didn't exist as cards in season 5.

In GX the regular populace didn't know the monsters were real still, which decimates the entire point you were trying to make. Also, if it did have to do with the powers of the monsters, then they wouldn't have been scaled that way.

I linked you the page to at least get a summary, the Crimson Devil fought the Crimson Dragon but the Blazing Soul signer was the one who succeeded the dragon. The signer dragons didn't get the chance to fight.
 
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