Yu-gi-oh! Anime Upgrades

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

oh yeah all of them are just human level let's ignore sginers being powered by a literal god that controls time and space

Being empowered by energy doesn’t auto mean it scales to durability (which seems to be what your side is aiming to do here)

And simply “controlling time and space” isn’t an AP feat in the slightest

let's ignore the fact the dark sginers were going to destroy the planet with their earthbound immortals and their god is comparable to the crimson dragon

You...just kind of proved my point here.

The earthbound immortals are that strong, yes. Not the literal humans individually

let's ignore the fact they control a source of energy that produces infinite power and call them humna level

Pretty sure Somebody’s arguing against this point already, so I’ll leave this to him if that’s the case.

let's ignore every time a monster damages a human and call it an outlier

Yes because it’s grossly inconsistent in the context of the verse. We don’t see these said humans tanking these level of attacks anymore than them being harmed by what ordinary people struggle to survive from.

also purden of proof on you you made the claim not me

No it’s not because I don’t have to prove a negative. You have to prove a positive since you’re the one claiming this isn’t an outlier.

The positive claim is what the burden of proof applies to, not the negative.

edit:also would you elobrate for the "standards" of yugioh ?

By “standards”, I mean the context of the verse as I said above.

That these characters are more ordinary people than anything else with the stats and limitations of ordinary people compared to the few feats of them surviving hits from monsters that isn’t what’s normally the case.

Thus, I have every reason to claim these as outliers in the first place.

 

[SomebodyData]

Overlord

1. Yes? It isn't plot vs card mechanics, it's the plot relying on card mechanics.
2. Thanks for the link. Though it doesn't show them as equals, strangely enough, the signer dragons aren't actually there once the signer arrives? What's your take on that?
3. Unfortunately, og series season 4 happens right after that, so basically, everyone in Domino City would scale due to the Orichalcos attack.
4. Well, no. Again it's a false equivalence to compare a vs debating site's ratings to what's stated in lore. And again, only you and Zencha believe that Ener-D = Ba, so it's not that the wiki agrees. Still haven't provided a statement where Ener-D = Ba, only that Ba users can sense Ener-D users (Does Yusei even use Ener-D? I thought he uses the Crimson Dragon's magic).
5. "They're talking about his spirit power though? I'm talking about Ener-D," which isn't spiritual-based so why bring that up?
6. Everyone has ba (its literally your spirit), to assume it's infinite for everyone is absurd. Also the entire thing about not being able to completely draw it out is null, the Millennium Items do that in season 5 and it caps Yugi out at 5-A with the Egyptian Gods- imagine how it would be normally.

Zencha

1. It proves my point because it shows you don't have to have the same power source to have high spiritual power. Ergo your scans don't prove that Ener-D = Ba.
2. Paradox comes from a reality where Ener-D destroyed the future, so yeah, of course he would know. But the monsters themselves still need the Ba to exist and fight at full power, we're not just going to write off season 5 here.
   Ener-D is an extraordinary power, sure.
   When I brought up extra-canonical material, you guys rejected it, remember? So no, it won't work as supporting evidence.
3. Everyone has ba (its literally your spirit), to assume its infinite for everyone is absurd. Also the entire thing about not being able to completely draw it out is null, the Millennium Items do that in season 5 and it caps Yugi out at 5-A with the Egyptian Gods- imagine how it would be normally.
4. Not by the collective humanity, but again, the individual. Once more its a massive difference between Ener-D and regular Ba.

 

[Zencha9]

Being empowered by energy doesn’t auto mean it scales to durability (which seems to be what your side is aiming to do here)

And simply “controlling time and space” isn’t an AP feat in the slightest

false having more spirit energy means that you scale to such a thing stardust had more spirit energy than neos and he almost one shotted him jaden tanked that now prove to me that it isn't the case

You...just kind of proved my point here.

The earthbound immortals are that strong, yes. Not the literal humans individuall

if you debunk spirit energy thingy then sure humans are not as strong as thier summoners

Yes because it’s grossly inconsistent in the context of the verse. We don’t see these said humans tanking these level of attacks anymore than them being harmed by what ordinary people struggle to survive from.

prove that it's inconsistent in the context of the verse

By “standards”, I mean the context of the verse as I said above.

That these characters are more ordinary people than anything else with the stats and limitations of ordinary people compared to the few feats of them surviving hits from monsters that isn’t what’s normally the case.

Thus, I have every reason to claim these as outliers in the first place.

the "standards" of said verse has tier 5 feats all the way to tier 2 from DM all the way to Arc-V and you're just gonna ingore all of these feats ?
and before you say humans don't scale they totally do spirit energy/BA makes them scale and it's not like that happened once where humans tank attacks from monsters
mahado while heavly fatigued tanked an attack from diabound .Jaden tanked an attack from stardust . bakura tanked attacks from Obelisk
even shadi for god sake tanked an attack from Zorc and was stated to be equal to Dark magician

 

[SomebodyData]

Alright, with my comment I realized this is getting way too bloated and I think we lost the plot.

Right now, let's reduce the debate to what matters here: Scaling Stardust to Jaden.

1. Why should Crimson Dragon amped Stardust scale to T.G., when even Shooting Star couldn't actually defeat it (Also note that this takes place before the feat)? Make the scaling chain and explain.
2. Why should Paradox's Stardust scale to Crimson Dragon amped Stardust?

 

[Zencha9]

we need to clear the BA/spirit energy thing if we don't we won't get anywhere

 

[Overlord775]

@ProfessorKukui4Life

Y u not respond to my comment

@SomebodyData

Actually, i remembered something, it wasn't tg who made the feat, it was caused by Antony synchro summoing that caused it

EoS Yusei scales to Antony via being a stronger duelist at the ed of the serie

Crimson Dragon >>> Yusei at all poits of the serie

furthermore, Paradox should e comparable to Antony, as they are part of the same team

also, what Zecha said, we need to determine the Ba/Ka stuff

 

[Zencha9]

1- choose one you were arguing at some point that ener-d is powered up by synchro monsters. synchro monsters are considered duel spirits so their energy would be the same
or choose that ener-d is powered up by human emotions and thoughts it would be still the same as Zorc/the god of orichalcos, crimson dragon and crimson devil and divas
2-ok he knew and collected monsters with powerfull energy so that means that satrdust has the same type of energy as rainbow dragon and cyber end
also that's clearly not true that all KAs need BA Zorc draws energy from the darkness so is the god of orichalcos summoners need BA to maintain their KA's power Shimon needed more power to fuel up exodia even tho exodia was stated by both Shimon and Zorc to have infinite energy
also that's literally the original manga not an "extra-canonical material"
3-dude i did not say that everyone as an individual has infinite energy i said that as a collective humanity has infinite energy . not sure about your point rgarding millennium items can you elaborate on that
4- there are monsters that are amped by the humanity as collective Zorc/god of orichalcos crimson dragon and crimson devil and Divas they're the same thing again can you prove how they're different ?

 

[Overlord775]

Overlord

1. Yes? It isn't plot vs card mechanics, it's the plot relying on card mechanics.

1. Except it's not, it's more like plot playing by game mechanics

it very much doesn't change the fact that the three monsters are ment to be equal [also, in terms of REAL strenght, since 5Ds monsters are always material and not just holograms]

1. Thanks for the link. Though it doesn't show them as equals, strangely enough, the signer dragons aren't actually there once the signer arrives? What's your take on that?

they are Crimson dragons' helpers, thus

because they weren't needed for the scene, so they weren't included in that part of the flashback, basic storytelling logic

1. Unfortunately, og series season 4 happens right after that, so basically, everyone in Domino City would scale due to the Orichalcos attack.

Nobody outside of the main group was shown to be able to even stand up to the Orichalcos tho

1. Well, no. Again it's a false equivalence to compare a vs debating site's ratings to what's stated in lore. And again, only you and Zencha believe that Ener-D = Ba, so it's not that the wiki agrees. Still haven't provided a statement where Ener-D = Ba, only that Ba users can sense Ener-D users (Does Yusei even use Ener-D? I thought he uses the Crimson Dragon's magic).

it was never stated in the lore that they are different tho ?

and tell me another person in this wiki that care about yu-gi-oh, so we can @ them here and see what they say [beside Yobo, he's busy]

also yes, Yusei uses Ener-D, that's what makes monsters material in 5Ds

1. "They're talking about his spirit power though? I'm talking about Ener-D," which isn't spiritual-based so why bring that up?

what is your proof that it isn't spiritual ?

1. Everyone has ba (its literally your spirit), to assume it's infinite for everyone is absurd. Also the entire thing about not being able to completely draw it out is null, the Millennium Items do that in season 5 and it caps Yugi out at 5-A with the Egyptian Gods- imagine how it would be normally

everybody has Ba, but not everybody has the same amount of Ba

the egyptian gods should be AT LEAST 4-A to very likely high 3-A, so moot point

 

[SomebodyData]

Zencha

I'm saying one thing at a time. Otherwise, this becomes a bloated mess no one understands- and more importantly, a debate of attrition rather than anything actually good.

Overlord

Anthony had synchro summoned before without causing a supernova- so I'm 99% sure it was that T.G.

Hold on, EoS? Doesn't BBT take place a little after episode 82? And if Crimson Dragon >>> EoS Yusei, why would Stardust dragon scale at that point? That would become a scaling loop.

Being part of the same team doesn't mean they're all comparable. For example, Weavil was part of the Orichalcos at one point- we don't scale the Leviathan to him, Tristen to Atem, Raditz to Frieza, etc.

 

[Zencha9]

i'm gonna try to make things simple what makes you think that ener-d doesn't use the same energy as spirit energy/BA

 

[SomebodyData]

1. It has different general mechanics with some overlap.
2. Kaiba Corp finding it (while being Ba) doesn't make much sense- considering they already knew about Ba since Battle City (Their denial of magic is dub only)
3. Arc-V canonically is when Kaiba Corp managed to create real monsters- the issue? It specifically says it's based solely on technology, not Ba. Kaiba Corp, if they mastered ba like they did Ener-D, would be able to create real monsters decades (or centuries if you consider the legendary statement from Zexal) before then.
4. Most importantly, it was never stated to be the same. We need direct confirmation for something like this.

 

[Zencha9]

1-explain
2-like i said they discovered the technolgy to use the energy(Planetary Particle/energy) also kaiba in the manga and JP anime was still not sure about the magic stuff
3-both work exactly the same

 

[Overlord775]

@SomebodyData

1. sorry, ment Delta Accell Synchro banana Summon
2. Crimson Dragon >> Stardust > Yusei, also we don't quite know where BBT is in the 5Ds timeline
3. That's very much differet, as Paradox isn't threated as a goon or of someone of lesser importace, but a team member of equal rank to Antony. BTW,Weevil was empowered by the Orichalcos, so while he wasn't quite as strong as the big 3, he shouldn't be too weak either [also litterally nobody of the Orichalcos scale to the great Leviathan]

 

[SomebodyData]

Overlord

1. So then Delta Accel Synchro Summoning = High 4-C? That's canonically far stronger than regular synchro summoning, even Accel Synchro Summoning like Shooting Star, who is superior to Majestic Star Dragon and Stardust by extension.
2. Yusei remembers Paradox if I remember correctly before he fights Bruno. This also fits with how Yusei remembers as one of his last memories meeting Bruno. So it would fit well within 82-83.
3. Paradox's interactions are never really shown with the rest of them, so we don't know if he's a goon. Other examples (assuming he's part of a full team) would still be Tristen & Yugi, Yuya & well everyone, heck Yusei and his own team except for Jack, and many more if you want to include other verses. We just don't scale via virtue of being the same team.

Zencha

1. For example, you brought up how some of the high tiers of Ba get stronger within the negative emotions of humanity to compare to the collective emotions part of Ener-D; however, other than that, no regular Ba user gets his power from the collective emotions of humanity.
   What I'm trying to say is that there exists specific mechanics for each energy source, that regularly are different.
2. No, Kaiba acknowledges magic. He just believes it isn't the future or the best. It would also be extremely out of character with his beliefs to suddenly switch to Ener-D which you claim is Ba considering he hate magic.
3. No, like I said, regularly they aren't. And again, you need a direct statement saying they're the same.

 

[Zencha9]

1-i could bring some examples but it doesn't matter i am trying to explain that they work the same
2-never said he denies it but yeah he likes to achieve things though other means than magic but in the end guess what in DSOD he uses agami's quantum qube to go to the afterlife to duel yugi
3-i don't need a statment of them being the same when ener-d uses an energy that everyone a acknowledges to be duel monster energy

 

[SomebodyData]

Zencha

1. I guess they work the same, not sure if it changes much though. Actually, why are we arguing whether they have the same energy anyways?
2. You mean something that doesn't occur in the anime's canon?
3. No one but you two acknowledges it to be the same. Heck, Overlord just made a whole point about how it doesn't matter if the broader community doesn't agree. And yes, in this site, you do.

 

[Zencha9]

1-i dunno to make scaling easier and clear some misinformation
2-what?
3-i'm talking in-verse sorry if i wasn't clear enough

 

[SomebodyData]

1. So essentially its off-topic.
2. DSOD isn't canon to the anime; its a sequel to the manga.
3. Yubel & Jaden said it was a strong spiritual power, never called it Ba tho. Ener-D is pretty clearly a unique thing in-verse considering how its exclusive to 5-Ds.

 

[Overlord775]

Overlord

1. So then Delta Accel Synchro Summoning = High 4-C? That's canonically far stronger than regular synchro summoning, even Accel Synchro Summoning like Shooting Star, who is superior to Majestic Star Dragon and Stardust by extension.
2. Yusei remembers Paradox if I remember correctly before he fights Bruno. This also fits with how Yusei remembers as one of his last memories meeting Bruno. So it would fit well within 82-83.
3. Paradox's interactions are never really shown with the rest of them, so we don't know if he's a goon. Other examples (assuming he's part of a full team) would still be Tristen & Yugi, Yuya & well everyone, heck Yusei and his own team except for Jack, and many more if you want to include other verses. We just don't scale via virtue of being the same team.

1. the energy of the summoning =/= Quasar, it would scale to the duelists that can use it all
2. No, the flashback is before he defeats Z-one
3. All three of Z-one's "generals" are robotic copies of his former allies, AKA there's absolutelly no reason for them to be at differet levels of power.

the Tristan and Yuya exemples don't work, as Yugi's team is not made of equals, but friends, same goes for Yuya, meawhile Z-one's team is the only 4 survivors of the Meklords genocide

 

[SomebodyData]

1. So can BBT Yusei use Delta Accel Synchro Summoning and can you prove it? Not to mention, assuming what you're saying is true, wouldn't the fact that Yusei (pre-Delta Accel Synchro summoning) scales make it an outlier?
2. It was confirmed to take place before the Crash Town episode (86).
3. Aporia >>> His divided android selfs >> Antimony, so we already know they are different levels of power.

Was it stated that Z-One's team were made of equals, or just the survivors of the apocalypse?

 

[Zencha9]

SomebodyData
1-pretty sure it was to scale the main characters to each other
2-oh right but it doesn't matter because he still accepts magic existing (waking the dragon and he accepts the vision he saw when the god cards fought) and kaiba was not the one who discovered the energy it was yusei's father and he was the one who continued the project although for not so long because he knew it would be dangerous
3-yusei also tells jaden that the crimson dragon is a spirit monster and that he used his power to travel through time how can you get any more blatant that that?
also i didn't see that point but using arc-v as an example ? bruh(btw leo corporation made solid vision real not kaiba corp)

 

[SomebodyData]

1. Being the same energy doesn't mean they scale tho. (I'll be dropping the other points since this really doesn't matter).

 

[Zencha9]

i didn't say they automatically scale just because they have the same energy system but sure

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So then what was even the basis of scaling them with it if that wasn’t the purpose of the energy?

 

[Zencha9]

basically more energy = more power

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay but how and why would that mean anything?

 

[Zencha9]

umm for scaling ???

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I’m sorry I wasn’t clear enough, I’ll ask the question better.

Why are you assuming the energy put into summoning monsters is = to the tier the monsters are at?

 

[Overlord775]

So can BBT Yusei use Delta Accel Synchro Summoning and can you prove it? Not to mention, assuming what you're saying is true, wouldn't the fact that Yusei (pre-Delta Accel Synchro summoning) scales make it an outlier?

not the point, the point is that he should have the capabilities to perform it

t was confirmed to take place before the Crash Town episode (86).

can't read japanese man

Aporia >>> His divided android selfs >> Antimony, so we already know they are different levels of power.

What do you base those assumptions from ?

Was it stated that Z-One's team were made of equals, or just the survivors of the apocalypse?

Considering they were the onl survivors, they would have had to fought the Meklords togheter

 

[SomebodyData]

Overlord

1. Anyone can Delta Accel Synchro summon if you gave them the cards. Even if we ignore that, we don't scale on potential in this site- especially considering the scaling nightmare as everyone would just scale to literally everyone, including BoS Yusei.
2. Japanese-English online translator and dictionary – Yandex.Translate
3. Do you have a problem with that scaling? It comes from the show.
4. Nah, the reason they survived was that they didn't have negative emotions through Clear Mind- as the Meklords would stop attacking when that happened. It's also why they started to use Meklords. Though regardless, that wouldn't make them equals, just stronger than the Meklords after Ener-D has been significantly reduced without the synchro monsters and negative emotions of humanity.

 

[Zencha9]

I’m sorry I wasn’t clear enough, I’ll ask the question better.

Why are you assuming the energy put into summoning monsters is = to the tier the monsters are at?

talking about bruno ?

 

[Overlord775]

1. that's false tho, it's explicitedly show that not everybody can use it
2. k
3. From what ? what proves it ?
4. Wouldn't they still have needed to fight them before they reached they attained the Clear Mind ?

 

[SomebodyData]

1. If someone, for example, the exact same cards as Bruno, they wouldn't be able to?
2. Okay, so this Yusei shouldn't be High 4-C, correct?
3. Well the first part is obvious, Aporia is a fusion of the other three. As for Antimony, he pointed out that only Yusei after obtaining Delta Accel Synchro Summoning would be able to defeat the Meklord Emperors. If Antimony could defeat the Meklords on his own, then he wouldn't need Yusei. The decks of the three that form Aporia each use Meklords. Hence the scaling.
4. Well Z-One obtained Clear Mind beforehand, Antimony was actually about to get killed before Z-One saved him, the other ones weren't shown as far as I'm aware. Though the fact that Antimony was about to die from a single Meklord shows that he isn't comparable.

 

[Zencha9]

that was a suicidal antimony that wanted to die

before he met Z-One

 

[SomebodyData]

I'm not the one arguing they scale tho (thus it would be hilariously contradictory if he gets one shot), am I?

 

[Overlord775]

1. Nope, they wouldn't be able to either control his Meklords nor perform the accell sychro
2. This Yusei already reached the Clear Mind state previously, so he should scale
3. Aporia being the fusion of three doesn't matter since those are robots, aka the og's power wouldn't make them stronger, so at best their fused form is 3x Antimoty, though the fusion was mostly to just regain the full memories, wasn't it ?
also, that statement would make that Yusei > Aporia

 

[Overlord775]

[*not Timelords, those are Aporia's, mind fart my bad]

 

[SomebodyData]

1. Other than Crystron Phoenix?
2. Top Clear Mind =/= Clear Mind
3. Nah Aporia was >>> the three androids, forcing Yusei to go even further beyond with the Limit Over Accel Synchro Summoning. Far beyond the power required to stop the Meklord Emperor genocide, which I brought up even a single one would be > Antinomy above.
   Ye, just not Yusei as of episode 86.

 

[Overlord775]

1. Isn't that a link monster ?
2. ah
3. Aporia fought Yusei in Episode 135, Top Clear was introduced in Episode 144 and Limit Over Acell was itroduced in Episode 150, so there's a very big fallacy in that statemet of yours.
also again, what is the proof that the three adroids separated aren't just weak ? because from what i see Aporia only ever dueled when fused

 

[SomebodyData]

1. I think you're thinking about Knightmare Phoenix, not Crystron Phoenix.
2. I might have misspoken, Z-One forced Yusei to use Limit Over Acell, not Aporia. Though the scaling doesn't really change, just widens the gap between LOA Yusei and TCM Yusei. Thanks for catching that.
   They can be weak if you want to argue that, but that would just make the gap between Antimony and Aporia even bigger. IMO, you should be arguing they're stronger than what I'm saying, not weaker. Though honestly, it doesn't matter at this point. As long as there exists a gap between Aporia and Antimony, whether one is stronger or weaker, it proves the point that they're not equals.