Yu-gi-oh! Anime Upgrades

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Duel Monsters is not a goddamn shonen, fights happen in duels and that only for 99.9% of the time, saying you can't scale even when 100% obvious and not contradictory because "Muh duel" would be like saying the you can only scale Bayblades or Bakugans fights outside of arenas.

It's complete nonsense and bias against the serie.

Yeah no, this is a hilariously big false equivalency, especially for the former example you named.

Beyblade doesn’t have the burden of using point values or any established leveling system for their feats and abilities in any way, shape or form. It’s as far from game mechanics as you can get when compared to a series like this when it doesn’t even use game mechanics in the first place.

Bakugan is the only example that has at least somewhat of a basis to what your comparing here since the verse has an established leveling system that’s their equivalent to ATK points (Gs) and is a card-game genre series too. And it’s still a wrong example to compare here.

First, every single Bakugan battle ever is explicitly real and not a holographic duel like it is normally established in Yu-Gi-Oh. The standard for Bakugan is that everything is real. From the Bakugan themselves to the very arenas they fight in. Hell, prior to New Vestroia, the established standard for brawls was that they fight inside actual pocket dimensions while Time was frozen in the outside world.

Secondly, we don’t use or have even attempted to ever use G-Power from Bakugan brawls to ever do scaling for Bakugan here in the slightest, because of it being exactly something we don’t do. Why? Because of it being unbelievably inconsistent to do.

Not to mention, unlike Yugioh, G-Power in Bakugan funnily enough has consistently made major declines in the mechanics of brawling as the series went on, to the point where it’s no longer even a thing by the time of the Mechtanium Surge era.

I’m going to let Somebody take the drivers seat on this, but don’t use god awful false comparisons like this to try and save face.

 

[SomebodyData]

The duel pretty clearly was chock-full of game mechanics.

...Which he even stated would have killed everything and everyone- which would include T.G. itself. I mentioned the amp because Yusei is only High 4-C with the Crimson Dragon, based on scaling to T.G., as said on the page. Without CD, he isn't High 4-C basically, so Paradox wouldn't be High 4-C with Stardust either.

"Yes- game mechanics to increase ATK one monster's attack when what they are doing is combining their attack." This is the part that makes it uncontradictory.

The mask slipped there, shouldn't reveal that you're trying to scale monsters based on the card duels- everyone acknowledges that it's wank and more inconsistent than anything else on the site combined.

 

[Zencha9]

actually yusei would still be High 4-C because the marks are the direct powers of the crimson dragon and as shown in the movie yusei can control the crimson dragon freely also pretty sure EOS yusei scales far above bruno because Over Top Clear Mind > Top Clear Mind

 

[Overlord775]

The duel pretty clearly was chock-full of game mechanics.

Except no ?

...Which he even stated would have killed everything and everyone- which would include T.G. itself.

everybody was going to killed by the black hole, not the supernova

I mentioned the amp because Yusei is only High 4-C with the Crimson Dragon, based on scaling to T.G., as said on the page. Without CD, he isn't High 4-C basically, so Paradox wouldn't be High 4-C with Stardust either.

And the signer dragons scale to an extent to Crimson Dragon

also, during the duel against Paradox Yusei had the Crimson dragon backing him up

"Yes- game mechanics to increase ATK one monster's attack when what they are doing is combining their attack." This is the part that makes it uncontradictory.

The mask slipped there, shouldn't reveal that you're trying to scale monsters based on the card duels- everyone acknowledges that it's wank and more inconsistent than anything else on the site combined.

... are you seriusly trying to debunk my argument by being a grammar nazi ? SERIUSLY ?

read the rest of the responce, that ATK has no place being there.

i just had missworded, realize i had, deleted it and rewrote it, and forgot one piece of the original in. That's all there's is to it.

Also, no, that is very much false as only you (and DDM i suppose since he likes your comments) went againt the Stardust scaling, everybody else had agreed

 

[Overlord775]

also, please put in your comments the stuff you are responding to, it's hard to keep track

 

[SomebodyData]

Zencha - I kinda agree but kinda disagree at the same time. I agree on Over Top Clear Mind > Top Clear Mind and the Crimson Dragon part. However, as I mentioned, T.G.'s feat scaling seems iffy, when it's directly stated none of them would survive by Bruno himself. Not to mention, this isn't EoS Yusei either, so the scaling for BBT wouldn't work.

Overlord - Quoting everything would just needlessly clutter the thread, is it alright if I used bullet points?

1. You can say no, but that doesn't change the fact that game mechanics were all there. Life Points, ATK, DEF, turns, etc.
2. Yeah, which was a consequence of the supernova. Though now looking at the video, we sure this wasn't hax rather than AP?
3. No, remember we talked earlier about this. The feat used to scale the Signer Dragons to the Crimson Dragon turned out to be a guy who used sealing hax instead. Yes, the duel, which means this debate goes back to point 1.
4. I corrected what you said, but that had nothing to do with the bolding, which pointed out even you mentioned it was to increase ATK. The entire point of the various spell / trap cards used was to increase the ATK points, you can even ask Zencha if you want or just watch the video.
   Appeal to bandwagon? Also, who is 'everyone else' here?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Admittedly, I was fine it’s the Stardust stuff before but now I’m on the fence given Somebody’s points.

 

[Overlord775]

1. that applies to them needing to combine their power to defeat Malevic Truth Dragon, a monster that considering all other instances of Paradox summoning was real, by making their monsters attack at the same time ?
2. You need to be High 3-A to survive a black hole because it has infinite gravity, so it being a result of the supernova doesn't matter. Also, mind explaining me how making a star go supernova is hax ?
3. The signer dragons STILL fought Nova for a period of time before the Signer showed up.
4. No, what i ment to say is that they litterally needed to make their beams of energy combine to win. The points of those cards is litterally just "Neos attacks !" and "Dark Magician attack !", as ii's litterally what happenes. also also, you were badnwagowing just a moment earlier, so you are not in the position to scold me on that.
also also also, see about litterally everybody who responded before you.

 

[Zencha9]

kinda agree but kinda disagree at the same time. I agree on Over Top Clear Mind > Top Clear Mind and the Crimson Dragon part. However, as I mentioned, T.G.'s feat scaling seems iffy, when it's directly stated none of them would survive by Bruno himself. Not to mention, this isn't EoS Yusei either, so the scaling for BBT wouldn't work.

Yeah, which was a consequence of the supernova. Though now looking at the video, we sure this wasn't hax rather than AP?

bruno said that they would be both be autmoized i think that's the reason they couldn't survive it also it scales to physical because clear mind controls enter D which has duel energy meaning that they most have the energy to cause such a feat (btw duel energy is BA from DM and spirit energy from GX )

 

[Zencha9]

btw that's why i said at the start of the thread that spirit energy would make scaling yugioh characters much easier

 

[Overlord775]

@SomebodyData

By the way, it's very convinient of you how you haven't been responding to several key factors like how you haven't responded to how Neos still blocked a direct attack of Stardust

 

[Smashtwig]

Are Malefic versions stronger? If so, that could explain a lot.

 

[Zencha9]

i think so because the aura of stardust was not his normal aura i highly doubt his aura is that dark

 

[Overlord775]

isn't the aura being dark mean more that it's evil/corrupted ?

 

[Zencha9]

that's a fair assumption

 

[SomebodyData]

I'll respond tomorrow (kinda busy today), but regarding Stardust and Neos, I haven't really changed my position about Neos / Jaden nearly getting two-shot and Paradox's Stardust not scaling to amped Yusei with Crimson Dragon and Over Top Clear Mind Stardust, so I'm not sure how I'm avoiding it.

 

[SomebodyData]

Alright, back.

Zencha

Ye, they would be atomized. This means the gap between their durability and AP is pretty massive, even by one-shot standards (For example, it takes about 447 times more energy per cubic centimeter to do that then just violently blowing them up).

Also in regards to the duel energy comment, I don't think it's the same. Isn't it a major plot point that duel energy created by synchro summoning is incredibly unstable- hence the bad future and the destruction of Satelite? It should also be mentioned, that the Signer Dragons played a role in the latter which only resulted in Tier 7 AP.

Overlord775

1. That was to visualize the card effects.
2. Yeah, though if T.G. was High 4-C through passive AP, the black hole would be destroyed. So there wouldn't need to be High 3-A durability.
   Well, it is hax, what causes stars to go supernova isn't physical force, but a chemical reaction. Whether it scales to AP while being hax is what is up for debate.
3. We... don't actually know that. In fact, it's more likely than not contradicted by the fact that there even is a signer; considering it would entail the signer dragons are already with him, thus arrived with him.
4. Sorry if English isn't your first language when I ask you this, but can you rephrase that?
   If I understood this point correctly, the cards represent the AP instead of the ATK combining? It directly says ATK within the effects of the cards and if they could all just attack together normally, they wouldn't need the cards, so no.

 

[Ionliosite]

I've only skimmed across the thread, but from what I'm getting, the argument for Dark Magician not scaling to High 4-C is that Stardust Dragon isn't High 4-C in the first place contrary to what his profile claims?

 

[SomebodyData]

The profile doesn't even say Stardust Dragon is High 4-C, just Yusei with the Crimson Dragon.

 

[Zencha9]

Also in regards to the duel energy comment, I don't think it's the same. Isn't it a major plot point that duel energy created by synchro summoning is incredibly unstable- hence the bad future and the destruction of Satelite? It should also be mentioned, that the Signer Dragons played a role in the latter which only resulted in Tier 7 AP.

yeah synchro monsters make enter D spin faster but i dunno how that disproves duel energy(in 5d's) not being the same as the ones in DM/GX
also planetary particle (duel energy ) has the exact same defnetion as BA/duel energy from GX they come from the hearts of people
crimson dragon came from the good in people's hearts and earthbounds came from the evil in their
edit:also that was the original old incomplete Ener-D not the new one

 

[Overlord775]

@SomebodyData

sorry for taking so long, kinda forgot about the thread tbh

I'll respond tomorrow (kinda busy today), but regarding Stardust and Neos, I haven't really changed my position about Neos / Jaden nearly getting two-shot and Paradox's Stardust not scaling to amped Yusei with Crimson Dragon and Over Top Clear Mind Stardust, so I'm not sure how I'm avoiding it.

we have no clue if Neos would have bee destroyed, it's WAAAAY more likely Crimson Dragon stepped in to protect Judai himself
also, Yusai was amped by Crimson Dragon during the duel against Paradox

1. IMO Visual Effect >>> Card Effect, as the latter is waaaay more likely to be just game mechanics
2. Passive AP isn't a thing, t.g. wasn't mantaining the black hole, as celestial ojects don't eed outside energy to not collapse unto themselves
3. ... are they eve called signer dragons in the show ? either way, they are litterally shows to be there before the signer, so they lovically could have just eeen named that later on
4. If you are going of the one on yu-gi-oh wiki, then i wouldn't trust it
they can't attack togheter normally because ... game mechanics, i guess, and the fact that Yusai can't control Dark Magician and Neos

 

[SomebodyData]

Zencha

Ener-D is short for Duel Energy, and it's the result of synchro summoning. So I'd say it's pretty different, considering GX and the og series completely lacked it. While I don't like using the wiki as a source, they too acknowledge it as different. It's also pointed out that Kaiba Corps helped create it, when we know that Ba existed far before that.

Overlord

I mean, if Crimson Dragon stepped in that entails that it had to defend Jaden.

1. Agree. Unfortunately, the visual effect is a result of the card effect. Without the cards, they wouldn't be combining their attacks.
2. Let me reframe that, if T.G. is completely High 4-C (AP regularily and durability, etc), then destroying the black hole would be incredibly easy- especially if he made it just by being summoned.
3. Ye. Well, the scan you brought doesn't show the floor, so we can't actually see whether the signer was there or not. Though like I said, if all the signer dragons are there, then by extension the signer himself would be there. The scan you showed us tells that to be true.
4. No, it was stated within the duel itself. Yeah, I agree with the game mechanics part, I just go one step further and say that it's also game mechanics that prevents the humans from being one-shot by the damage of the monsters and prevents scaling.

 

[Zencha9]

Ener-D is short for Duel Energy, and it's the result of synchro summoning. So I'd say it's pretty different, considering GX and the og series completely lacked it. While I don't like using the wiki as a source, they too acknowledge it as different. It's also pointed out that Kaiba Corps helped create it, when we know that Ba existed far before that.

where does it say that synchros created ener d ?
maybe i missed it in the link but where does it say that ener d is different than duel energy
kaiba corp discovered it not created it

 

[Overlord775]

I mean, if Crimson Dragon stepped in that entails that it had to defend Jaden.

I the litterall previous scene Jaiden was hurt despite Neos not having been destroyed

1. No, the card effects was only to circunvent the turn-based mechanics
2. Destroying a black hole is an High 3-A feat
also, callapsing a star to make it go superova =/= destroying a black hole, tg only did the former, which caused the latter via chain reaction as that's what stars of sufficet enough mass naturally do when going supernova
3. The scan of the fighter appearing is shown later, so it would make o chroological sense that he was already there. Also, the moment he appeared he fused with Crimson Dragon and sealed Nova, so it litterally can't be earlier than fighting scene.
4. OOOOOOR the duelists' durability simply scales, evidenced by the fact Judai survived the first blast of Malefic Stardust, who was confirmed to be real at the time


BTW, Synchro monsters definitelly share the same energy system as gx and Duel Monsters, as Judai and Yubel were able to detect it and measure it

also, using other wikis for proof isn't allowed

 

[SomebodyData]

Zencha

I'm pretty sure Zero Reverse, which used Ener-D, showed synchro monsters as the source. Though it doesn't really matter anyways- the fact that it has a relationship with synchro summoning is something exclusive to itself.
They have different pages for ener-d and what GX / the og series showed. Not to mention, one is based on the emotions of all humans, technology based, and accelerated by synchro monsters; the other is based on an individual's spirit and life magic source. They don't really work the same way. Though shouldn't I be asking where it was stated to be the same?
I can't help but remember Kaiba Corp creating it with something about particles- though even if they didn't, the fact that Kaiba Corp discovered it means that it isn't what was in GX / the og series, considering it was already 'discovered' by then.

Overlord

1. Yes, but the point here is that the cards are still part of the game mechanics.
2. Surviving the effects of a black hole is High 3-A, destroying it is not as far as I'm aware.
3. I'm willing to concede if you can show that segment of the episode, though again, if the signer dragons were equal to the Crimson Dragon, it would be a scaling disaster, nevermind the fact that it would mean that the Crimson Dragon is not the god-tier of the verse (and thus gets rid of his scaling to T.G.)
4. You scale Jaden, you have to scale every single Duelist he's practically ever fought. Though Malefic Stardust isn't High 4-C, as Paradox lacks the Crimson Dragon anyways.

You think Ener-D is the same as Ba/the energy from the other series? Jaden and Yubel said he was a strong dueslist, but I don't see how that proves its the same energy. I only linked them to show more quickly that this headcanon is exclusive to this thread, as far as I can tell, it was never stated to be the same thing.

 

[Overlord775]

1. why would the three of them being comparable be game mechanics ? like if we assume they aren't it would ruins the entire scene
2. Black Holes have Infinite gravity, thus infinite gravitational Bounding Force, so it would require infinite energy to break them apart
3. Here at 8:25. The signer dragons don't fully scale to Crimson, they are obviously weaker, but they should backward scale, as they shouldn't be complete fodders when compared to him
4. What's the problem with that ?

different wikies, different opinions, see everybody threating Demonbane as outerversal outside of the wiki while we threat it as just 2-A at best. Why would Judai and Yubel be able to sense the Ener-D if it was the same or at least comparable to Spirit Energy ?

 

[Zencha9]

1-scan? also even if it was powered by the synchro monsters im not sure why that would contradicts them having the same energy
KAs and spirit monsters(from GX) have spirit energy the sacred beasts had an insane amount of power enough to destroy the world and make kagemaru young again same with the egyptian gods
2-you forgot that KAs shape the form of human thoughts and emotions like hatred etc bakura has the ablility to steal powers because he's a thief etc also ener d uses planetary particle so the technolgy itself uses duel energy and synchros accelerate that energy it turn making enter d go faster
3-duel energy was not known or used publicly the whole point of 5d's is that mid way to research scientists discovered that planetary particles are a thing and wanted to make an near infinite source of energy to power up the town only to fall to ruin because of greed

also you asked where it was that stated they're both the same
in these scans yubel and banner mention that yusei has spirit energy meaning that they're the same thing

 

[SomebodyData]

Overlord

1. Plot, it's always been plot. This is Yu-Gi-Oh! we're talking about, they've always done this. Also here's the link to the duel (AMV), the writers were so lazy they literally just gave the cards the same effects...
2. I'll concede on the black hole part, mostly because the scaling has come into question in the next part.
3. Link?
4. High 4-C Weavil for example, heck even non-duelists would scale indirectly? Hell, it would all technically scale to Arc-V, which means 2-C humanity.

I'm not using the wiki for their opinion on tiering, but to explain to you that Ener-D = Ba isn't a thing.

Zencha

1. Kas / spiritual monsters get their spirit energy from their summoner's Ba though, it's completely different from Ener-D, which comes from synchro monsters (not needing Bas) and collective human emotions instead of the individual's spiritual strength. Hell, didn't we have an arc with the Spirit World within 5Ds? I'm 100% Ener-D didn't play a role with how the inhabitants existed.
2. The entire point of Bakura and Diabound (his Ka), was that they were the exceptions. Remember how his Ba alone could contend with the Egyptian Gods? Also, coincidently, Bakura's Ba was his own- not the collective's, which proves my point.
3. Ba isn't infinite though, that's another issue. There are explicit limits on it- hence why the Pharaoh needed the Millennium Items in the days of old, or remember what happened to Shimon?
4. They're talking about his spirit power though? I'm talking about Ener-D.

Actually, let's assume the energy is the same then. The Zero Reactor feat was tier 7 but divided by the signer dragons- but if all monsters (as the og series treated it) were involved, it just significantly reduces the results for each of the dragons.

 

[Zencha9]

1-not all of them get energy from their summoner's BA crimson dragon and the earthbounds the god Orichalcos of are prime example of this they take power from people's thoughts and energy which were stated to be infinite mutliple times
2-i just used bakura as an example sure he might not be the best example but you get my point
also it was stated mutliple times that KAs are the reflection of the summoner's heart
3-i didn't say that each indivusal has infinite
4-ener-d uses spirit energy the fact that zero reverse happened is because ener-d was full of negative emotions hence the fact that it draws energy from the thoughts of humanity
didn't i say that was an old incomplete Ener-D not the new one

 

[SomebodyData]

1. If you wanted to rebuke me, this isn't the way. It means that the characters can sense the power of beings who don't use ba (based on orichalcos, as you stated). That proves my point here.
2. I get your point, its just not comparable. The ka is shaped by the heart of the summoner but that doesn't power them, canonically ba does that.
3. If you divide infinity by any number it's still infinity, so it'd be a consequence of your statement.
4. Ener-D isn't spiritual energy again, but emotional. I'm talking about ener-d in general.

 

[Overlord775]

1. Plot > game mechanics
also, they litteally call it a combined attack, so it's very clear what they were going for

Another thing, they weren't reall lazy, it's basically the same card because theat was the intent

3.

it didn't save my link

aaaaaaaaa

here
<.<

1. High 4-C Weavil for example, heck even non-duelists would scale indirectly? Hell, it would all technically scale to Arc-V, which means 2-C humanity.

4.1. TBF, the Yugi featured in BBT is AT LEAST Season 3 Yugi [or probably even Season 4 considering how the dark magicians talked], so not that many people would scale
4.2. btw, that was Judai-Yubel, so only people who scale to Season 5 Judai would scale
4.3: ARC-V's canonicity to the original series the legacy characters come from is ... doubious at best from what i hear. Also, Z-Arc was massivelly overconfident, so he was very likely pulling his blows

I'm not using the wiki for their opinion on tiering, but to explain to you that Ener-D = Ba isn't a thing.

potato potato

it's the same matter, wiki not agreeing with what is accepted everywhere else

1. They're talking about his spirit power though? I'm talking about Ener-D.

Yubel LITTERALLY says that Yusei has high spiritual power tho.

If you divide infinity by any number it's still infinity, so it'd be a consequence of your statement.

even if there's infinite energy avaible, it doesn't mean anything if the users can only draw on a limited amout of it

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Hold on, are we seriously scaling humans to High 4-C individually?

 

[Overlord775]

it would be only durability wise tbf and would be only to top duelists, who logically have way more spirit energy than fodder duelists

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That just seems to be only limiting the people who would scale so that makes it easier to hide a huge outlier (which still remains even with scaling only the people you mentioned).

 

[Zencha9]

going to respon to SD's point in a bit
@ProfessorKukui4Life you need to explain why it's an outlier

 

[Overlord775]

That just seems to be only limiting the people who would scale so that makes it easier to hide a huge outlier (which still remains even with scaling only the people you mentioned).

saying that Athem, he anciet Pharaoh who has Ba strong enough to summo all three egyptia gods, and Judai, who is litterally fused with a top tier spirit, are waaaay above the likes of normal duelists is not really farfetched

[also, like Zencha said, mind explaining why it would be a outlier ?]

 

[Zencha9]

1-don't see how that proves your point
2-yes BAs give KAs energy but duel monsters by themselves also have energy the only reason paradox stole yusei's stardust was because he had a big amount of energy paradox knew that duel monsters had a mytserious energy
yubel and jaden point out when seeing stardust that had an huge amount of energy. yusei tells jaden that he used the power of a spirit to time travel and yusei and
also priest seto's whole plan of torturing bandits was because seto noticed that bakura was so strong because of his hatred for what happened to his village. and it worked the bandits KAs became more powerfull also Shimon states that hearts give KAs power (but that's a manga only) but it should work as a supporting evidence
also throughout of all BBT they refer to synchro monsters as duel monster/duel spirits
now that i gave you proof that synchros monsters spirits = duel monsters spirits can you give me proof of the opposite because becuase this is getting tiring for me
3-again i didn't say that individually people have infinite energy also like overlord said just because there's an infinite supply of energy doesn't mean you can draw infinite power from it.
kaiba when amplifying his consciousness infinitly to access the afterlife almost died if not for kiara saving his ass
4-emotions can power up duel monsters so you point is moot

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

going to respon to SD's point in a bit
@ProfessorKukui4Life you need to explain why it's an outlier

A bunch of ordinary humans having a tier of durability far far far beyond anything they’ve consistently displayed and, even worse, something that makes 0 sense from what’s shown as the standard.

The burden of proof isn’t proving it is an outlier, it’s proving it isn’t. And that’s your responsibility.

 

[00potato]

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim (you in this instance.) and the other side already gave a good reason for it not being an outlier, so you gotta prove it.

 

[Zencha9]

A bunch of ordinary humans having a tier of durability far far far beyond anything they’ve consistently displayed and, even worse, something that makes 0 sense from what’s shown as the standard.

The burden of proof isn’t proving it is an outlier, it’s proving it isn’t. And that’s your responsibility.

oh yeah all of them are just human level let's ignore sginers being powered by a literal god that controls time and space
let's ignore the fact the dark sginers were going to destroy the planet with their earthbound immortals and their god is comparable to the crimson dragon
let's ignore the fact they control a source of energy that produces infinite power and call them humna level
let's ignore every time a monster damages a human and call it an outlier
also purden of proof on you you made the claim not me
edit:also would you elobrate for the "standards" of yugioh ?