Yu-gi-oh! Anime Upgrades

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

^^^^^
that alone makes it much more valid than the Kirby stuff

See above.

also, the god cards and the geh derive their power from things outside of the game, so it can't be game mechanics

You cant use in-game duel specifics like point values to help prove your case, and then turn around and use out-of-duel specifics as evidence as well. Choose one or the other.

also there's the fact that the mosters battling in duels are actual monsters

The monsters themselves are real, what happens in the duels themselves are not. Theres a reason why not every monster and their mother get what their holohraphic versions do if im remembering this correctly.

We actually do that, see Monica Pinkston and Tart

Cool, then they should be downgraded too. Infinite power isnt and should never be warranted a tier.

also Endless Power =/= Infinite Power, the two androids are the clearly estalished as the former, the stuff here is the latter

Pretty sure the latter was stated for them as well.

 

[Zencha9]

just wanted to say that effects are canon and are considered a power the actual monsters should have
example
in the anime before bakura enters the world of memories he duels seto kaiba in the duel he uses diabound and kills blue-eyes in the duel
flashforward during the events of world of memories bakura uses lightning burst stream (blue eyes's power) against yugi's obelisk to somewhat stalemate him and runs away

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Are we sure the effects arent just being made real by outside influences like you'd find in a shadow game, rather than the effects belonging to the monsters?

Also, as pointed out above, isnt Zorc's best feat in the anime summoning forth the moon via TK? He stomped the God Cards.

 

[Ionliosite]

Yeah, gotta disagree with High 3-A Gods as well after reading Kukui's points.

 

[Imaginym]

geh only appeared in a duel

also it was created through the power of the Orichalcus, which originates from the great Leviathan

It was created by Leviathan? Do you mean made real or such just like how Gazelle or Kuriboh would be real in the seal?

(infinite speed to bouce the attack back and forth an attack going infinite speed)

the math tecnically works out as infinite multiplication would equal infinity, it's just that logically speaking it shouldn't have been possible to pull i that timeframe, but you know fiction be fiction

But even assuming infinite multiplication of speed, you probably have to have infinite multiplication of AP for the Knights to overcome Geh's durability, since unless it's a glass cannon, it's durability shouldn't be significantly weaker than its infinite AP.
Wouldn't that would mean scaling the Knights, in spite of us claiming we wouldn't, plus all their feats showing they're weaker?
In any case, if the knights don't scale, I suppose their Infinities (Speeds aside.) probably aren't relevant.

Iirc it was stated to be a parralel dimension, which would maye imply them to e equal in size, though gx does confirm that the duel spirits' world is the same size as the normal one, two sides of the same coin

I think we need scans about the dimension size, & more evidence of the Dimension GX is concerned with is the same the Orichalcos arc was concerned with; GX's dimension & canon didn't exist when Orichalcos aired. IIRC, GX explicitly had 12 Dimensions.

ehhhh, not really, it depends on how those feats were made, which in Leviathan's case were very casual

Distant past Leviathan doing a beam clash & ending up having to slumber & regain strength is casual?
Shards leviathan nearly losing another beam clash against Dragon Timeaus is casual?
Absorbing stars BEFORE it awakens (Implying it needed more energy.) is casual?
Losing to nearly powerless-from-its-own-draining Egyptian Gods is casual?

Back at Atlantis the Leviathan didn't have 10 thousand years worth of souls that Dartz snatched, so it was much weaker

also, tbf, the thing at the start of the arc was just a eye, so we could

The eye thing still had numerous shards, souls & likely the God Cards power as well.

Here at 15:09

though it's not clear if that's what's happening

It caused no destruction directly tho, the machine exploded because it overloaded

But wasn't the overloading BECAUSE of Obelisk & BEUD's clash?

i have no idea how to handle this, but isn't Pyramid of Light not-canon ?

AFAIK, yes, Pyramid of Light indeed is not canon. The Gods killing the artists who were working to get their cards made until Pegasus did it is from the anime, though.

​

@ProfessorKukui4Life : I don't disagree with you, but monsters are made real by the Orichalcos. Although, finding statements concerning how this realness is achieved may be valuable, if at least to make clear to unfamiliar users how it works. (No offense meant.)

 

[Zencha9]

Are we sure the effects arent just being made real by outside influences like you'd find in a shadow game, rather than the effects belonging to the monsters?

Also, as pointed out above, isnt Zorc's best feat in the anime summoning forth the moon via TK? He stomped the God Cards.

it was a shadow game but what's important that it can use it's effect outside the duel thus not really game mechanics
he done the moon thing really casually while getting attacked by the gods and is on the ground iirc

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@ProfessorKukui4Life : I don't disagree with you, but monsters are made real by the Orichalcos. Although, finding statements concerning how this realness is achieved may be valuable, if at least to make clear to unfamiliar users how it works. (No offense meant.)

Oh im not suggesting this, I know very well the monsters are real. Im saying that what they do in duels is, outside of obvious specifics, not real.

Its entirely possible for the monsters to be real and only have their effects in duals be fake as well. Hence why, again, not all of the monsters and their mothers get the abilities of what their holographic versions do in duels. Unless this is something thats changed.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

it was a shadow game but what's important that it can use it's effect outside the duel thus not really game mechanics
he done the moon thing really casually while getting attacked by the gods and is on the ground iirc

Can you show me the former? Or point it out if the evidence is already linked here? I dont remember that, the opposite if anything. Like the God cards, Blue Eyes & Exodia not using their actual in-game abilities against Zorc as their real selves.

And thats the point. Even though it was casual, moving the moon is a humungous cry away from tier 3 in any way. He'd have gotten stomped by them if infinite power was actually literal.

 

[Overlord775]

See above.

No, the monsters summoned ARE the monsters, all card effects they have is the same as the ones the monsters have, litterally nothing points at the monsters gaining stuff when summoned.

BTW, the shadow powers are Zorc's power.

also he has the whole, plunging the universe into shadows and [in Dub] creating the shadow realm, which are much higher than the Moon Feat

You cant use in-game duel specifics like point values to help prove your case, and then turn around and use out-of-duel specifics as evidence as well. Choose one or the other.

I don't even know what you mean by that

The monsters themselves are real, what happens in the duels themselves are not. Theres a reason why not every monster and their mother get what their holohraphic versions do if im remembering this correctly.

All monsters cards that appeared in the anime have their card effects, see Jinzo and Numer 39: Utopia

What you are thinking about is most likely how we don't apply IRL card effects, which is simply because the IRL cards aren't canon

Cool, then they should be downgraded too. Infinite power isnt and should never be warranted a tier.

Or maybe you should consider that you are simply wrong ?

High 3-A is Infinite power, no more or less than that, it has non of the shenigans that 4-D and up have, it simply is

Pretty sure the latter was stated for them as well.

Nope, they were always made out to be Endless Power in contrast to 19 and 20 who have to steal energy

 

[Overlord775]

It was created by Leviathan? Do you mean made real or such just like how Gazelle or Kuriboh would be real in the seal?

All the monsters used to summon it were Orichalcom, aka monsters who's power is that of the Leviathan

But even assuming infinite multiplication of speed, you probably have to have infinite multiplication of AP for the Knights to overcome Geh's durability, since unless it's a glass cannon, it's durability shouldn't be significantly weaker than its infinite AP.
Wouldn't that would mean scaling the Knights, in spite of us claiming we wouldn't, plus all their feats showing they're weaker?
In any case, if the knights don't scale, I suppose their Infinities (Speeds aside.) probably aren't relevant.

like i said the knights don't scale, only Knight of Destiny, who is a "force greater than infinity" and thus could kill the infinite power snake [which is dumb, but anime logic goes brrrr]

I think we need scans about the dimension size, & more evidence of the Dimension GX is concerned with is the same the Orichalcos arc was concerned with; GX's dimension & canon didn't exist when Orichalcos aired. IIRC, GX explicitly had 12 Dimensions.

well, i'll have a look to find the episode

also, backwards stuff is still usable if it's just clarification

Distant past Leviathan doing a beam clash & ending up having to slumber & regain strength is casual?
Shards leviathan nearly losing another beam clash against Dragon Timeaus is casual?
Absorbing stars BEFORE it awakens (Implying it needed more energy.) is casual?
Losing to nearly powerless-from-its-own-draining Egyptian Gods is casual?

Distant past Leviathan is weaksouce compared to present Leviathan
Shards Leviathan doesn't have the full power, arguably only that of the monsters he absorbed there and then, so nah
the great Leviathan was never stated to run on stuff like stars or non-souls, so moot point
the Egyptian gods were brought back to full power after being revived

The eye thing still had numerous shards, souls & likely the God Cards power as well.

if it had the power of the gods card then it would have lost it as the eyes was destroyed, so i'd say it didn't have it
also, numerous shards <<<<<<< all the shards

But wasn't the overloading BECAUSE of Obelisk & BEUD's clash?

*because of Obelisk wiping the floor with BEUD

yes, but there's a very large difference between punching a robot and making a robot explode because it can't comprehend your power

AFAIK, yes, Pyramid of Light indeed is not canon. The Gods killing the artists who were working to get their cards made until Pegasus did it is from the anime, though.

ye

Can you show me the former? Or point it out if the evidence is already linked here? I dont remember that, the opposite if anything. Like the God cards, Blue Eyes & Exodia not using their actual in-game abilities against Zorc as their real selves.

They actually did, with like Ra going Phoenix mode and doing a lot of damage to Zorc, though basically all gods and Exodia's abilties are them flexing their divine might unto weaker monsters, so they aren't even as remotly as effective on a superior opponent

also, Blue Eyes litterally has no effects lol

 

[Zencha9]

Can you show me the former? Or point it out if the evidence is already linked here? I dont remember that, the opposite if anything. Like the God cards, Blue Eyes & Exodia not using their actual in-game abilities against Zorc as their real selves.

And thats the point. Even though it was casual, moving the moon is a humungous cry away from tier 3 in any way. He'd have gotten stomped by them if infinite power was actually literal.

1- this video shows all of bakura's fights in S5 first he fights seto and kills blue eyes
later we see him using blue eyes's powers against atem in the world of memories
2-i reall didn't want to go into the tier 2 stuff but Zorc after winning against atem in the world of memories said that he was going to destroy all of the world of memories with darkness the world of memories is an alternate reality with it's own space-time continuum when atem killed zorc and reached the end instead of the memory world getting erased because his memories ended there atem was the one getting earased from the memory world and when atem was getting erased he declared priest seto as the next pharaoh that will rule egypt entrusting seto with the future of the world of memories
also the orichalcos contains the world of memories

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No, the monsters summoned ARE the monsters, all card effects they have is the same as the ones the monsters have, litterally nothing points at the monsters gaining stuff when summoned.

I know the monsters summoned are THE monsters. What im saying is them becoming real doesnt neccessarily mean the abilities have to be coming from them, they can just be made real due to outside influences like shadow games making the duels real and what not.

BTW, the shadow powers are Zorc's power.

Okay?

also he has the whole, plunging the universe into shadows and [in Dub] creating the shadow realm, which are much higher than the Moon Feat

Uh, for one why is the dub being mentioned here? The dub doesnt matter.

I don't even know what you mean by that

Your using both in-game mechanics and out-of-game mechanic evidences to help prove your case when that's wrong. First your using the point values displaying infinite to try and prove the case of it being literal (when its strictly duel game mechanics) and then after that you argue the gods drawing power from outside the game to help you (when ironically, thats also inconsistent since they wouldnt need to do that if they had literal infinite energy).

Its either you use one or the other.

All monsters cards that appeared in the anime have their card effects, see Jinzo and Numer 39: Utopia

And again, why? if their holographic versions are the only ones who have displayed them, then the real versions shouldnt have them. That said, im going to wait on Somebody to weigh in on this before I go any further on this point.

Or maybe you should consider that you are simply wrong ?

High 3-A is Infinite power, no more or less than that, it has non of the shenigans that 4-D and up have, it simply is.

Yes when destroying an infinite sized universe or realm. Not just infinite power, which is what your using here as the main basis.

Nope, they were always made out to be Endless Power in contrast to 19 and 20 who have to steal energy

Wrong, not according to this. Trunk flat out says, in quotes, "They have an infinite energy supply", followed up by Vegeta outright saying infinite energy.

So no, they were stated to have infinite power and unless we're going to upgrade Pre-Super era Dragon Ball to tier 3 based off this, that helps my case.

 

[Smashtwig]

So, everything has already been decided for everything but the H3A stuff right

 

[Overlord775]

I know the monsters summoned are THE monsters. What im saying is them becoming real doesnt neccessarily mean the abilities have to be coming from them, they can just be made real due to outside influences like shadow games making the duels real and what not.

Complete headcanon on your part, there's nothing that even hints of that being the case.

Uh, for one why is the dub being mentioned here? The dub doesnt matter.

Love how you just ignored Zorc enveloping the universe in darkness [which is not dub, only the second is as anyone could tell from how i worded it]

Your using both in-game mechanics and out-of-game mechanic evidences to help prove your case when that's wrong. First your using the point values displaying infinite to try and prove the case of it being literal (when its strictly duel game mechanics) and then after that you argue the gods drawing power from outside the game to help you (when ironically, thats also inconsistent since they wouldnt need to do that if they had literal infinite energy).

There's no "game mechanics" this isn't a goddamn videogame, both out of duel and in-duel are canon

Kaiba said that Obelisk's special ability gives him infinite force, why would he mean that he has infinite strenght only in "game mechanics" ?

And again, why? if their holographic versions are the only ones who have displayed them, then the real versions shouldnt have them. That said, im going to wait on Somebody to weigh in on this before I go any further on this point.

BECAUSE DUELS ARE CANON

Yes when destroying an infinite sized universe or realm. Not just infinite power, which is what your using here as the main basis.

High 3-A: High Universe level​

Characters who demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, or those who can affect an infinite 3-D area or an infinite number of finite or infinite universes when not accounting for any higher dimensions or time, or more generally any realm of comparable size. Large numbers of infinite universes, unless causally closed from one another by a separate spacetime or existence, only count for a higher level of this tier. Being “infinitely” stronger than this level, unless uncountably so, does not qualify for any higher tier.

the defiition of the tier says that infinite power qualifies

Wrong, not according to this. Trunk flat out says, in quotes, "They have an infinite energy supply", followed up by Vegeta outright saying infinite energy.

So no, they were stated to have infinite power and unless we're going to upgrade Pre-Super era Dragon Ball to tier 3 based off this, that helps my case.

AAAAAND that's what i ment, endless power is the exact same as infinite energy, it's just different wording

That very much doesn't apply here, as the infinite strenght and force here are actual infinite power instead of having a never ending supply, as the monsters can use all of it to attack at once

 

[Smashtwig]

Hm, most of the time from what I remember from the anime, there is correlation to the monsters having effects from their origin. At least there's an explaination correlating to what the monster is

For example, I recall Yugi vs Kaiba Battle City, when Yugi utilized Electromagnetic Turtle. The card's effect basically says "negate the attack", but it's explained in the anime that when Electromagnetic Turtle goes to the graveyard it leaves behind an electrode or something. Another easier example is Magnet Valkyrion, when they do the whole fusion thing with the other Magnet Warriors. The card effect basically says "Magnet Warriors go to graveyard to Special Summon Valkyrion". But it's explained that the Magnet Warriors fuse to make Valkyrion. It could be safe to assume that there is an explaination for everything.


Also, the Egyptian Cards can negate effects from other effects, yet that is nowhere seen on the card effects (aside from Obelisk, but a limited variant I think?)

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Complete headcanon on your part, there's nothing that even hints of that being the case.

Besides Shadow Games making duels real? That does not correlate to the abilities coming from the literal monsters.

Love how you just ignored Zorc enveloping the universe in darkness [which is not dub, only the second is as anyone could tell from how i worded it]

You mean creating the shadow realm? If thats dub only, then mentioning it as a feat is irrelevant when it doesnt count. Also, enveloping the universe in darkness (even if its that literal beyond poetic wording) isnt universe level in the slightest.

There's no "game mechanics" this isn't a goddamn videogame, both out of duel and in-duel are canon

Yes, there is. If your using point values to try and help infinite power being legit, your using dueling mechanics. If your using out-of-duel instances to help your case, then drop the former. Either or.

Kaiba said that Obelisk's special ability gives him infinite force, why would he mean that he has infinite strenght only in "game mechanics" ?

Because Obelisk's strength in the duel is infinite ATK points? Why are you making this out to be more than what the scene gives? He had infinite ATK points to duel with, thus Kaiba said infinite force. Not that hard.

BECAUSE DUELS ARE CANON

Yeah no. Duels being canon doesnt mean the abilities being applied to the real counterparts is legit. It just means the abilities of what the holograms use are the canon dueling abilities.

High 3-A: High Universe level​

Characters who demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, or those who can affect an infinite 3-D area or an infinite number of finite or infinite universes when not accounting for any higher dimensions or time, or more generally any realm of comparable size. Large numbers of infinite universes, unless causally closed from one another by a separate spacetime or existence, only count for a higher level of this tier. Being “infinitely” stronger than this level, unless uncountably so, does not qualify for any higher tier.

the defiition of the tier says that infinite power qualifies

On a 3-D scale, which this isnt. And even more so, I highly doubt a single character on this site is High 3-A without first becoming 3-A, which of course isnt the case here for these guys.

AAAAAND that's what i ment, endless power is the exact same as infinite energy, it's just different wording

And thanks for admitting its just endless power for Obelisk as well, so no upgrade here. "Different wording" is a lazy excuse and you know it.

That very much doesn't apply here, as the infinite strenght and force here are actual infinite power instead of having a never ending supply, as the monsters can use all of it to attack at once

Stop ignoring what the scan outright said. "Endless" is never used, it says infinite. Period. Energy = power for obvious reasons, so yes it very much applies here.

Either you admit 3-A Andrioid 17 and 18 or drop tier 3 Obelisk.

 

[Smashtwig]

But it's pretty likely that the cards are based off the real thing as explained in my thingie above. They aren't just making shit up, I think. The effect of the card would be something like

"Negate the Attack"

While the actual variant would be (as explained)

"Negate the attack via electrode diverting it out of the way"

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

But it's pretty likely that the cards are based off the real thing as explained in my thingie above. They aren't just making shit up, I think. The effect of the card would be something like

"Negate the Attack"

While the actual variant would be (as explained)

"Negate the attack via electrode diverting it out of the way"

Yeah but this wouldnt be literal in the sense that E.T. would have power null via actually negating it, he would just be diverting the attack elsewhere (at least thats what im getting from your response).

 

[Smashtwig]

Like, hm, how do I say it

That means that ET has a reason for negating an attack, because its origins likely involve ET actually having that ability when it was a real thing. The cards are based on the real thing, so... yeah

Same should apply for like, Obelisk right? Why would they make something so OP if it didn't reflect its origins. The Egyptian Cards are the most powerful things ever, so they made the cards OP to reflect it. If they WEREN'T basing it off their original selves, then why are they designed with so many overpowered aspects?

 

[Zencha9]

Also, the Egyptian Cards can negate effects from other effects, yet that is nowhere seen on the card effects (aside from Obelisk, but a limited variant I think?)

pretty sure that's due to the divine hierarchy
also i'm still not sure on High 3-A but there are statments of zorc saying that he has infinite power (note japanese says mugen=infinite)
also just to note darkness is refering to either destruction or erasure (void or EE) when used

 

[Zencha9]

1- this video shows all of bakura's fights in S5 first he fights seto and kills blue eyes
later we see him using blue eyes's powers against atem in the world of memories

did everyone ignore this ?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

pretty sure that's due to the divine hierarchy
also i'm still not sure on High 3-A but there are statments of zorc saying that he has infinite power (note japanese says mugen=infinite)
also just to note darkness is refering to either destruction or erasure (void or EE) when used

Those statements feel somewhat wonky.

The 2nd one (which is the only one that blatantly says it) says that humans strengthen the darkness, which in turn grants him infinite power. Lets assume for a moment its 100% literal. This seems to only mean that Zorcs power endlessly increases since his power grows when darkness is strengthened, which is strengthened by humans.

It doesnt seem to be outright infinite, or else the darkness he gets his power from wouldnt need to rely on people to empower it further and further.

 

[Zencha9]

Those statements feel somewhat wonky.

The 2nd one (which is the only one that blatantly says it) says that humans strengthen the darkness, which in turn grants him infinite power. Lets assume for a moment its 100% literal. This seems to only mean that Zorcs power endlessly increases since his power grows when darkness is strengthened, which is strengthened by humans.

It doesnt seem to be outright infinite or else the darkness he gets his power from wouldnt need to rely on people to empower it further and further.

it's the darkness in human hearts that gives him power also the darkness existed before the creation of the universe

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yes but Zorc is saying that the darkness itself is being strengthened by people.

 

[Zencha9]

yes human thoughts gives darkness power but it still existed way before humans did

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I’m not seeing how it predating people would mean much in this case. Since Zorc is saying that humans empower the darkness, which empowers him because his strength comes from darkness.

If the darknesses power was infinite, that wouldn’t be happening.

 

[Zencha9]

i'm not really following are you saying that because people give the darkness power it's not infinite ?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

i'm not really following are you saying that because people give the darkness power it's not infinite ?

Pretty much. Why would something supposedly infinite be amped further in power?

The way it’s worded to me it seems more like Zorcs power endlessly grows via darkness being endlessly strengthened by humans.

 

[Zencha9]

i mean in the same show infinite was multiplied by another infinite
sooo eh

 

[Overlord775]

Besides Shadow Games making duels real? That does not correlate to the abilities coming from the literal monsters.

That's not how Shadow games work in general, Shadow/Penality games are just games where the loser has something terrible happen to them [which most of the time is losing their soul]

Yes, there is. If your using point values to try and help infinite power being legit, your using dueling mechanics. If your using out-of-duel instances to help your case, then drop the former. Either or.

Both are correct tho

Because Obelisk's strength in the duel is infinite ATK points? Why are you making this out to be more than what the scene gives? He had infinite ATK points to duel with, thus Kaiba said infinite force. Not that hard.

Obelisk is an actual god in the setting, you know ?

when characters talk about Obelisk/Ra/Slifer, their power are ment to be taken litterally

Yeah no. Duels being canon doesnt mean the abilities being applied to the real counterparts is legit. It just means the abilities of what the holograms use are the canon dueling abilities.

There's absolutelly no evidence that monsters are modified. They are the same and exact monsters, no more, no less.

aka

Big. Fat. Headcanon. on your part

On a 3-D scale, which this isnt. And even more so, I highly doubt a single character on this site is High 3-A without first becoming 3-A, which of course isnt the case here for these guys.

The gods are 3-D buddy.

also, i already shown you two, Monica and Tart, nothing prevents people from doing the jump beside that infinity multiplier are rare

And thanks for admitting its just endless power for Obelisk as well, so no upgrade here. "Different wording" is a lazy excuse and you know it.

Stop ignoring what the scan outright said. "Endless" is never used, it says infinite. Period. Energy = power for obvious reasons, so yes it very much applies here.

Either you admit 3-A Andrioid 17 and 18 or drop tier 3 Obelisk.

DUDE, are you drunk or something ?

17/18 = Infinite Power Supply

Obelisk = Infinite Power Output

It's not that hard ! One is a battery, the other is a railgun, they aren't even comparable.

Pretty much. Why would something supposedly infinite be amped further in power?

This is fiction, just because it doesn't make logical sense it doesn't mean it's wrong

this is the same serie where there's "A force beyond infinity" after all

 

[SomebodyData]

I'll leave a response tomorrow, but already need to clarify a few things:

Yes, the cards are modified, even further some cards are just made up. Aside from the PoL monsters, the fusions from the various legend dragon / knight monsters, thousand year dragon, and a whole lot more are modified to fit the card game or just made up.

Tart has other evidence (Mainly also having tier 2 BFR), and so does Monica presumably.

Atk points don't scale, otherwise you'll have Celtic guardian stronger than slifer and ra half the time.

 

[Smashtwig]

But if cards are modified, why would they give Obelisk infinite force and keep the whole Not Affected by Anything trait even though it's likely game breaking? And the same goes with the Divine Serpent and other legendary like cards

(I guess it doesn't break the game in today's meta, but back then, it likely could)

 

[Overlord775]

Yes, the cards are modified, even further some cards are just made up. Aside from the PoL monsters, the fusions from the various legend dragon / knight monsters, thousand year dragon, and a whole lot more are modified to fit the card game or just made up.

You entirely missed the points.

With "By made up" it means card effects that for some reason only the hologram versions of the monsters would have, which is nonsense. About the things ou brough up.

Fusion is threated as just that, the fusion of two mosters, the fusio monster's powesr comes from the sum of the parts, same for the legend dragons which are just fusion

Thousand Dragons is just an older Baby Dragon created by Time Wizard speeding up time.

Cards aren't modified, at worse their effects are just retconned.

The anime has the concept where cards are simply created out of eather because of other cards' effects, such as fusion monsters' cards being created when a fusion is made

Tart has other evidence (Mainly also having tier 2 BFR), and so does Monica presumably.

Tier 2 BFR isn't even remotly proof of High 3-A stats, like not at all

Monica is High 3-A because of infinity statements

Atk points don't scale, otherwise you'll have Celtic guardian stronger than slifer and ra half the time.

Nothing in the thread uses attack point scaling tho [well, except the one for the Dark Magican scaling, but that's just there to show another point]

Infinite strenght is infinite strenght no matter how you slice it, like it's not even stated as Infinite Attack Points, but straight up as Infinite Force

also, god cards at full power would scale to Obelisk's Infinite attack, so you are wrong there too

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That's not how Shadow games work in general, Shadow/Penality games are just games where the loser has something terrible happen to them [which most of the time is losing their soul]

Thats the end result of a Shadow Game, like Marik sending Mai and Joey's souls to the shadow realm. Im talking about the very duel in and of itself, and in every single shadow game that I recall, the duels were specifically made real that makes them differentiated from standard hologram duels that dont to the former.

Both are correct tho

No they aren't, you cant have your cake and eat it too. If your going to use evidence that has to do with out-of-duel mechanics and nothing to do with obvious card mechanics like point values, then stick to that, not flip back and forth when its convienent.

You also seemed to forgot about the point that them drawing on power would also kinda debunk Obelisk having infinite strength, since this wouldnt be neccessary if that was actually the case.

Obelisk is an actual god in the setting, you know ?

when characters talk about Obelisk/Ra/Slifer, their power are ment to be taken litterally

You mean a god who not only got stomped by things far far lesser than the tier your suggesting, but also failed as to so much destroy someone who absolutely isnt tier 3 (Aigami)? Sure thing.

If them being gods is all the reasoning there is to this, this isn't exactly concrete.

There's absolutelly no evidence that monsters are modified. They are the same and exact monsters, no more, no less.

Somebody has already commented on this, and will do so more later, but you need more than duels being a canon thing to leap to the idea that the holographic versions abilities apply to the real things.

aka

Big. Fat. Headcanon. on your part



The gods are 3-D buddy.

also, i already shown you two, Monica and Tart, nothing prevents people from doing the jump beside that infinity multiplier are rare

This I will say fair enough to, but I will for sure be making a thread to address this soon enough.

And when actually reading their pages, even Monica and Tart seem to have better cases for them than whats being suggested here for the Gods. Lack of Anti feats and consistent evidence that infinite power isnt hyperbole for them.

DUDE, are you drunk or something ?

17/18 = Infinite Power Supply

Obelisk = Infinite Power Output

It's not that hard ! One is a battery, the other is a railgun, they aren't even comparable.

You know energy is put into output, yes? Especially for DB of all verses where energy manipulating is done as much as breathing.

They have a supply of infinite energy, pointed out 2x, and what's energy? Power. Thus, the androids have infinite power. This isn't that hard to understand. So again, either you admit tier 3 andriods are a thing, thus making everyone from Cell and up tier 3 (especially Cell for literally absorbing all the power of 17 and 18), or tier 3 Gods based off these reasons is bunk.

This is fiction, just because it doesn't make logical sense it doesn't mean it's wrong

this is the same serie where there's "A force beyond infinity" after all

Again, another lazy excuse and you've been here long enough to know this argument isnt a get out of jail free card against an anti-feat.

Not to mention the context of "infinity" can literally just mean endlessly growing, which the latter in this case is a much more reliable option since the darkness gets empowered by humans.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Anyway, im going to wait until Somebody comes tomorrow to see what he has to say more in-depth, but this is my official position in this thread.

High 4-C I agree with, Infinite speed and High 3-A is a no from me.

 

[Zencha9]

just wanted to point out that using agami is not really an anti feat
also yes zorc says that humans give the darkness infinite power but he does not say that the darkness is growing infinitely that's an assumption on your part he says that the darkness is already infinite he does not mention anything about growing

 

[Overlord775]

Thats the end result of a Shadow Game, like Marik sending Mai and Joey's souls to the shadow realm. Im talking about the very duel in and of itself, and in every single shadow game that I recall, the duels were specifically made real that makes them differentiated from standard hologram duels that dont to the former.

as far as i know, basically no shadow game has mentions of the monsters becoming real, also i very much doubt that monster effects would change

No they aren't, you cant have your cake and eat it too. If your going to use evidence that has to do with out-of-duel mechanics and nothing to do with obvious card mechanics like point values, then stick to that, not flip back and forth when its convienent.

BOTH duels and out of duel is equally as important, saying only one of the two can be used completly misses the point of the show AS A WHOLE, as it's a story about a cardgame and the mystical mysteries revolving around it

You also seemed to forgot about the point that them drawing on power would also kinda debunk Obelisk having infinite strength, since this wouldnt be neccessary if that was actually the case.

That debunks nothing, as that just meas that card Obelisk isn't always at full power

You mean a god who not only got stomped by things far far lesser than the tier your suggesting, but also failed as to so much destroy someone who absolutely isnt tier 3 (Aigami)? Sure thing.

If them being gods is all the reasoning there is to this, this isn't exactly concrete.

You do realize Obelisk hadn't activated the infinite attack ability in his battle against Aigami, right ?
also, the movie isn't canon, as it doesn't even follow the anime continuity, but the manga's

also the only things that ever menaged to defeat Obelisk were other gods

Somebody has already commented on this, and will do so more later, but you need more than duels being a canon thing to leap to the idea that the holographic versions abilities apply to the real things.

Why for the love of god WOULDN'T they be canon ? Like, the monster cards are spirits being summoned into the field

Why for the love of god would they be modified ?

Also like, EVERY goddamn time that a monster effect activates we are given an explanation as to what is going on, as to why they are able to do what they do, WHY would they say that if it was just game mechanics ?

This I will say fair enough to, but I will for sure be making a thread to address this soon enough.

And when actually reading their pages, even Monica and Tart seem to have better cases for them than whats being suggested here for the Gods. Lack of Anti feats and consistent evidence that infinite power isnt hyperbole for them.

Litterally multiplies by infinity and multiple rating of Infinity
Hyperbole

hyperboles

1. exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

This is very much doesn't fit under hyperble as they aren't exaggerated statements and are ment to be taken litterally

You know energy is put into output, yes? Especially for DB of all verses where energy manipulating is done as much as breathing.

They have a supply of infinite energy, pointed out 2x, and what's energy? Power. Thus, the androids have infinite power. This isn't that hard to understand. So again, either you admit tier 3 andriods are a thing, thus making everyone from Cell and up tier 3 (especially Cell for literally absorbing all the power of 17 and 18), or tier 3 Gods based off these reasons is bunk.

The androids were never shown nor stated to be able to pull on all their energy at once, for all sense and purposes the only good it does for them is limitless stamina

That's all like, pure headcanon on your part on how the androids work. They are just endles barreries, which you can only draw a limited amout of energy from if you attach wires to it.

also, Cell never absorbed all of their power, he just absorbed them and keeps them in his body, which as seen by the fact he litterally spat out 18, they are being used as batteries basically

geh/Obelisk with ability on ACTUALLY proof of infinite power attacks instead of just wild speculation

Again, another lazy excuse and you've been here long enough to know this argument isnt a get out of jail free card against an anti-feat.

That's just how fiction works. Fiction threat infinity as something ou can subtract and add from, you just gotta deal with it.

also against, same serie, "Force beyond infinity" exists

 

[SomebodyData]

...That's the point. Cards can be created, showing not everything was originally a monster spirit- therefore means Pegasus made-up monsters and by extension their effects.

In Tart's case it's to show it's not hyperbolic / she has precedence, given tier 2 > tier 3.

If you can scale ATK to their AP, you're inevitably getting ATK scaling. Just because you arbitrarily limit it to Obelisk means nothing. The point was that Ra and Slifer can both vary (using the very card effects you believe in) to the point of being weaker than most monsters, hence why its suspect to use ATK and their card effects. Even without LP or cards in your hand- Slifer and Ra have shown actual powers outside a duel, showing they are >>>>>> 99.9999999999% of cards when outside of game mechanics.

How would they scale to Infinite Obelisk? I must have missed that.

 

[SomebodyData]

Hold on, we're scaling Stardust Dragon to the Crimson Dragon?

Also, how is calling the og cards legendary mean that they're High 4-C, as if reputation scales AP?

 

[Zencha9]

not sure about the pegasus thingy i mean sure he made the cards but how could he have known about the divine hierarchy and diabound's effect? and draw the god cards exactly how they are from ancient egypt i think this is a big plot hole just like some duelist knowing the attack names of the monsters that were in ancient egypt
not knowlageable on 5d's but shouldn't stardust scale above bruno anyways ?